BvS David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

[PacificBoy]

I like the raised surface holograms. I heard that Zack came up with it (which hints that he had some input in the script).

That was seriously cool, all right. Sndyer definitely has input in the script. Wasn't the change of ending to Superman killing Zod down to both Goyer and him?

 

[Marvin]

Absurd in this instance, agreed.

Search back far enough and you may see it with your own eyes.

I haven't read the script. Is it available online?

I too am eager to get my paws on it. My goyer script collection is mounting.

 

[roach]

It's a parallel, and one that's not entirely without merit. The established guidelines and structures of 3 act storytelling, etc... (which Goyer is working well within the confines of) is where MoS fails.

Such as...

 

[slumcat]

That was seriously cool, all right. Sndyer definitely has input in the script. Wasn't the change of ending to Superman killing Zod down to both Goyer and him?

That isn't script, that's a design choice. The script just says Lara's face appears on the screen. Snyder chose to represent the screen as a three dimensional hologram because he didn't want to use flat screens for such an alien civilization.

 

[PacificBoy]

That isn't script, that's a design choice. The script just says Lara's face appears on the screen. Snyder chose to represent the screen as a three dimensional hologram because he didn't want to use flat screens for such an alien civilization.

Oh, didn't know that. Assumed the script (haven't read it) literally wrote "Krypton liquid geo device".

 

[slumcat]

These days the scripts are written so that they are absolutely up to the director's discretion, earlier the script writers wrote much more detailed scripts with even shot choices and what not.

But these days, unless the writer is the director too, all directions or design choices are kept to a bare minimum.

 

[Vid Electricz]

Such as...

The movie tells us everything as opposed to showing: "I'm a pulitzer winning reporter." As well as all the clunky and seemingly endless exposition about the codex. Included in this, the dialogue is continuously telling us one thing about krypton (that you are born to fulfill a role in society) and show another (Jor-el taking down a gang of born and bred warriors). We could be here all day talking about basic inconsistincies in the story.

The protagonist's arc is VERY weak. He makes few decisions, he is told what to do by other characters and pushed around as events around him unfold. In stories like this, the protagonist is responsible for driving the story forward. If there is confusion about who the character is (Who is Clark Kent? What defines him as a person?) or what their goal is (What does Clark ultimately want?), We are sort of, kind of told these things, but never shown. This is the quickest way to sap any interest in the story being told.


And those are just the very tip of the iceberg.

 

[roach]

The movie tells us everything as opposed to showing: "I'm a pulitzer winning reporter." As well as all the clunky and seemingly endless exposition about the codex. Included in this, the dialogue is continuously telling us one thing about krypton (that you are born to fulfill a role in society) and show another (Jor-el taking down a gang of born and bred warriors). We could be here all day talking about basic inconsistincies in the story.

The protagonist's arc is VERY weak. He makes few decisions, he is told what to do by other characters and pushed around as events around him unfold. In stories like this, the protagonist is responsible for driving the story forward. If there is confusion about who the character is (Who is Clark Kent? What defines him as a person?) or what their goal is (What does Clark ultimately want?), We are sort of, kind of told these things, but never shown. This is the quickest way to sap any interest in the story being told.


And those are just the very tip of the iceberg.

continue

 

[roach]

These days the scripts are written so that they are absolutely up to the director's discretion, earlier the script writers wrote much more detailed scripts with even shot choices and what not.

But these days, unless the writer is the director too, all directions or design choices are kept to a bare minimum.

actually a bunch of factors go into why writers keep design choices to a minimum....mainly because sometimes you write a part for someone and they don't want to do the movie.
The part of Neo in the Matrix was written with Will Smith in mind.
The movie The One was written with Arnold Swartzenegger in mind. When Jet Li got the role the whole movie was re-written and a martial arts flick.

 

[Vid Electricz]

continue

Counter argument first.

 

[Krumm]

The plot absolutely relies on a McGuffin and its the most ludicrous one ever conceived, the goddamned codex. WHO thought of THAT?

It is a McGuffin but I thought cleverly gave it a weight by it being fused with Kal's blood and making him the ultimate Kryptonian.

 

[jimbob]

As I read the last few pages, my feelings about the fan community are definitely getting better. I have a friend who is a prominent local artist and businessman, and I asked his opinion. It turned out to be "Mark Waid is a friggin' hack comic book writer who can't even maintain a lousy six figure income! If he had any real talent, he'd move on to novels or screenplays instead of playing in the kiddie pool. I would guess that Goyer's response to Waid would be 'That's nice. Now go mow my lawn.'" I thought it was pretty illuminating. One man's hero is another man's loser.

 

[roach]

The movie tells us everything as opposed to showing: "I'm a pulitzer winning reporter." As well as all the clunky and seemingly endless exposition about the codex. Included in this, the dialogue is continuously telling us one thing about krypton (that you are born to fulfill a role in society) and show another (Jor-el taking down a gang of born and bred warriors). We could be here all day talking about basic inconsistincies in the story.

If you want me to counter point your arguments then you'll have to be more specific than endless exposition. I only remember two times the codex is talked about...In the beginning and when Jor'El is talking to Kal 'El. You are also incorrect in your believing that Jor' el took out the warriors single handedly. I seem to recall they were blinded. I don't care who you are If you can;t see you can't fight.


The protagonist's arc is VERY weak. He makes few decisions, he is told what to do by other characters and pushed around as events around him unfold. In stories like this, the protagonist is responsible for driving the story forward. If there is confusion about who the character is (Who is Clark Kent? What defines him as a person?) or what their goal is (What does Clark ultimately want?), We are sort of, kind of told these things, but never shown. This is the quickest way to sap any interest in the story being told.

Clark's arc isn't weak. It's the typical hero arc. Clark wants to do good. He saves people at every turn. He knows he is meant for something greater. This is shown to us in the argument before Jonathan's death. He knows he has these powers and needs to do good with them. No one tells him to do this. Jonathan tells him to keep this side of him hidden. He can't. In the scene at the oil rig, with the trucker, on the bus we see that he will continue to help people. He doesn't want to hide who he is but he witnesses his father sacrifice his life for the secret it galvanizes the main point of the movie home...what would happen if a guy like this was revealed? One of Clark's fears is if the world finds out what he can do they will reject him and hurt the ones he loves. One of the biggest moments of the film is when the General tells his men "This man is not our enemy". Finally someone excepts him for who he is. This is echoed again at the end when the brilliant line "Welcome to the planet." is delivered.

And those are just the very tip of the iceberg.

Please be more specific. I can't debate too much exposition about the codex.

 

[roach]

As I read the last few pages, my feelings about the fan community are definitely getting better. I have a friend who is a prominent local artist and businessman, and I asked his opinion. It turned out to be "Mark Waid is a friggin' hack comic book writer who can't even maintain a lousy six figure income! If he had any real talent, he'd move on to novels or screenplays instead of playing in the kiddie pool. I would guess that Goyer's response to Waid would be 'That's nice. Now go mow my lawn.'" I thought it was pretty illuminating. One man's hero is another man's loser.

I have met Mark Waid and he is the nicest man you will ever met. He signed my copy of Birthright.

 

[jimbob]

That's cool. I dig a lot of his stuff, and it's great that most of these guys actually enjoy interacting with fans.

 

[Krumm]

I have met Mark Waid and he is the nicest man you will ever met. He signed my copy of Birthright.

I've never met him but in the interactions I've seen him have with fans on message boards, he seems to have little patience for those who disagree with him -- even in the slightest bit -- or even challenge his point. It was a bit of a turn off but he also stated that he knows his views are going to piss people off and he doesn't care, which is fair.

 

[roach]

I've never met him but in the interactions I've seen him have with fans on message boards, he seems to have little patience for those who disagree with him -- even in the slightest bit -- or even challenge his point. It was a bit of a turn off but he also stated that he knows his views are going to piss people off and he doesn't care, which is fair.

I don't know any comic book writer who hasn't flipped out on the internets. Hell Dan Slott flipped out on someone on these boards over BND.

While I respect his work I disagree with his assessment of MOS.

 

[Krumm]

I don't know any comic book writer who hasn't flipped out on the internets. Hell Dan Slott flipped out on someone on these boards over BND.

While I respect his work I disagree with his assessment of MOS.

It wasn't so much flipping out, it was more or less barking at everyone who didn't agree.

But yeah, it happens, it's just the way he went about it.

 

[Tempest]

I hear ya. t:

I'll be belaboring the point (further) if I go on.

(Rest well btw.)

Thank you! And please go on. I love your posts.

The movie tells us everything as opposed to showing: "I'm a pulitzer winning reporter." As well as all the clunky and seemingly endless exposition about the codex. Included in this, the dialogue is continuously telling us one thing about krypton (that you are born to fulfill a role in society) and show another (Jor-el taking down a gang of born and bred warriors). We could be here all day talking about basic inconsistincies in the story.

I saw why Lois was a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter. They did indeed tell us about her Pulitzer, but we were also shown why she earned it.

The codex is my least favorite part of the film, but it wasn't awful.

There's no contradiction in what we're told. We are told that people have their careers chosen for them. Nothing was said about how people couldn't learn other skill sets. Chosen career does not equal inability to have free will, or inability to learn other things.

I'd love to hear more inconsistencies of the story.

The protagonist's arc is VERY weak. He makes few decisions, he is told what to do by other characters and pushed around as events around him unfold. In stories like this, the protagonist is responsible for driving the story forward. If there is confusion about who the character is (Who is Clark Kent? What defines him as a person?) or what their goal is (What does Clark ultimately want?), We are sort of, kind of told these things, but never shown. This is the quickest way to sap any interest in the story being told.

I disagree again. I saw plenty of what Clark wanted, and I saw plenty of how he was shaped as a person. I saw why he chose humanity over his biological people. The film was very good about informing us about what Clark wanted, and what he doesn't quite get. (This is true in the comics. Clark, more than anything, wants to be accepted by his adopted world, but he will always be an outsider, no matter what).

 

[Vid Electricz]

If you want me to counter point your arguments then you'll have to be more specific than endless exposition. I only remember two times the codex is talked about...In the beginning and when Jor'El is talking to Kal 'El. You are also incorrect in your believing that Jor' el took out the warriors single handedly. I seem to recall they were blinded. I don't care who you are If you can;t see you can't fight.

Jor-El: “You came from Krypton, a world with a much harsher environment than Earth’s. Long ago, in an era of expansion, our race spread out through the stars, seeking new worlds to settle upon. This scout ship was one of thousands launched into the void. We built outposts on other planets, using great machines to reshape environments to our needs. For 100 thousand years our civilization flourished, accomplishing wonders.”
Clark Kent: “What happened?”
Jor-El: “Artificial population control was established. The outposts and space exploration were abandoned. We exhausted our natural resources. As a result, our planet’s core became unstable. Eventually, our military leader, General Zod, attempted a coup, but by then it was too late. Your mother and I foresaw the coming calamity and we took certain steps to ensure your survival. This is a genesis chamber. All Kryptonians were conceived in chambers such as this. Every child was designed to perform a predetermined role in our society as a worker, a warrior, a leader, and so on. Your mother and I believed Krypton lost something precious, the element of choice, of chance. What if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society had intended? What if a child aspired to something greater? You were the embodiment of that belief Kal. Krypton’s first natural birth in centuries. That’s why we risked so much to save you





OMG. WHY. SO UNNECESSARY.


Even taking out Zod mano a mano, without so much as breaking a sweat, goes against what the movie has already told us. Say one thing, do another. There is no information provided (shown nor told) to account for Jor-el a born scientist, besting Zod, a born and conditioned warrior in a physical confrontation. Jor-el won because the story called for it. Goyer (or Snyder?) wanted to keep the audiences interest with some action (look how badass Jor-el is!), whether it made sense within the narrative or not. He did the same thing in Watchmen with normal, out of shape human protagonists performing at superhuman levels, strictly for the visual feast it provides. Sloppy creative choice.

Clark's arc isn't weak. It's the typical hero arc. Clark wants to do good. He saves people at every turn. He knows he is meant for something greater. This is shown to us in the argument before Jonathan's death. He knows he has these powers and needs to do good with them. No one tells him to do this. Jonathan tells him to keep this side of him hidden. He can't. In the scene at the oil rig, with the trucker, on the bus we see that he will continue to help people. He doesn't want to hide who he is but he witnesses his father sacrifice his life for the secret it galvanizes the main point of the movie home...what would happen if a guy like this was revealed? One of Clark's fears is if the world finds out what he can do they will reject him and hurt the ones he loves. One of the biggest moments of the film is when the General tells his men "This man is not our enemy". Finally someone excepts him for who he is. This is echoed again at the end when the brilliant line "Welcome to the planet." is delivered.

Goyer goes for the traditional heroes journey but fails most prominently by giving us a weak, personality-less protagonist. Clark Kent, in MOS, is a reluctant protagonist, which while not a bad thing in and of itself (action/adventure/fantasy films are full of RP's), it becomes boring and dramatically weak when the narrative isn't being guided by the protagonist's choices- A strong, active character will make choices, but we don't see that here. In MOS, Clark's hand is consistently forced, and it makes for weak drama (particularly in a movie like this).

Clark is sent to earth, he's told by his father to avoid using his powers, then Jor-el tells him he must use his powers, then Zod shows up and Clark has no choice but to turn himself in. At no point is Clark truly guiding the narrative through his own choices.

 

[roach]

Jor-El: “You came from Krypton, a world with a much harsher environment than Earth’s. Long ago, in an era of expansion, our race spread out through the stars, seeking new worlds to settle upon. This scout ship was one of thousands launched into the void. We built outposts on other planets, using great machines to reshape environments to our needs. For 100 thousand years our civilization flourished, accomplishing wonders.”
Clark Kent: “What happened?”
Jor-El: “Artificial population control was established. The outposts and space exploration were abandoned. We exhausted our natural resources. As a result, our planet’s core became unstable. Eventually, our military leader, General Zod, attempted a coup, but by then it was too late. Your mother and I foresaw the coming calamity and we took certain steps to ensure your survival. This is a genesis chamber. All Kryptonians were conceived in chambers such as this. Every child was designed to perform a predetermined role in our society as a worker, a warrior, a leader, and so on. Your mother and I believed Krypton lost something precious, the element of choice, of chance. What if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society had intended? What if a child aspired to something greater? You were the embodiment of that belief Kal. Krypton’s first natural birth in centuries. That’s why we risked so much to save you

In this scene Clark is learning about his people for the first time from his biological father. How else was he to learn about this?

Even taking out Zod mano a mano, without so much as breaking a sweat, goes against what the movie has already told us. Say one thing, do another. There is no information provided (shown nor told) to account for Jor-el a born scientist, besting Zod, a born and conditioned warrior in a physical confrontation. Jor-el won because the story called for it. Goyer (or Snyder?) wanted to keep the audiences interest with some action (look how badass Jor-el is!), whether it made sense within the narrative or not. He did the same thing in Watchmen with normal, out of shape human protagonists performing at superhuman levels, strictly for the visual feast it provides. Sloppy creative choice.

So only trained soldier can kill trained soldier...great I can't wait for our boys in Afghanistan to hear that. A number of factors went into this scene. Jor-el is fighting for the life of his son. Not sure if you are a parent or not but most parents in that situation have been known to do the impossible in situations like this. The other thing is you seem to be hung up on this "bred" for war thing. This doesn't make Zod an indestructible killing machine or a military tactical genius...as evidenced in this movie. Jor-el isn't the only scientist bred for science yet he was the only one that was right about Krypton's implosion. I don't see how Jor-el won since Zod killed him...clearly thats not a win.



Goyer goes for the traditional heroes journey but fails most prominently by giving us a weak, personality-less protagonist. Clark Kent, in MOS, is a reluctant protagonist, which while not a bad thing in and of itself (action/adventure/fantasy films are full of RP's), it becomes boring and dramatically weak when the narrative isn't being guided by the protagonist's choices- A strong, active character will make choices, but we don't see that here. In MOS, Clark's hand is consistently forced, and it makes for weak drama (particularly in a movie like this).

No it's not I clearly showed you where he's not a weak character nor his arc. Just because you say it again when I proved it was incorrect doesn't make you right.

Clark is sent to earth, he's told by his father to avoid using his powers, then Jor-el tells him he must use his powers, then Zod then shows up and Clark has no choice but to turn himself in. At no point is Clark truly guiding the narrative through his own choices.

Clark is sent to Earth...this is correct
He is told by his father to avoid using them...which he does not do, clearly.
Jor-el tells him to use his powers....true but he was doing it anyway before he met Jor-el
Zod shows up and he has no choice to turn himself in...clearly incorrect since he talks to a priest and decides to turn himself in to Humanity not Zod.

Clark guides all his own decisions.

 

[DA_Champion]

Marvin,

You are the kind of guy who prefers blade trinity to mozart's requiem and who considers MoS to have a great script, so yes your opinion is worth less than mark waid. The odds of you being right and him wrong are not zero, but close to it. Either way you should catefully ponder what he has to say rather than casually and arrogantly dismiss it.

As a professional once told me, learning is painful. Keep reading what experts until you understand their point.

 

[roach]

Marvin,

You are the kind of guy who prefers blade trinity to mozart's requiem and who considers MoS to have a great script, so yes your opinion is worth less than mark waid. The odds of you being right and him wrong are not zero, but close to it. Either way you should catefully ponder what he has to say rather than casually and arrogantly dismiss it.

As a professional once told me, learning is painful. Keep reading what experts until you understand their point.

This was uncalled for. He didn't attack your intelligence so why attack his? Keep it respectful dude.

 

[DA_Champion]

The conceptualization of Krypton is a total failure in this movie. The lack of political stagnation in the movie, but overall it is clear that tgey did not hire competent consultants. The most crude error is that thry told us it is a higher gravity planet, and showed us a planet with comparable or lower gravity to earth.

I also dont get why Krypton's sun was yellow. Another example of showing ome thing and telling another.

 

[DA_Champion]

This was uncalled for. He didn't attack your intelligence so why attack his? Keep it respectful dude.

I am not attacking his intelligence at all.

I am saying he is not an expert and he should listen to experts.

For the hundredth time (sigh) it is fine to sometimes havd crude tastes, I do too. One should acknowledge it though.