BvS David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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To be honest, he won't upset me unless some of the odd explanation make their way into the movie. The "Death by Cop" reasoning for Zod's death wasn't my favorite and didn't completely come across in the movie to me. Luckily the only thing "canon" is what made the theatrical release, so I can still treat the final confrontation as Zod being mad at Supes instead of trying to kill himself.

PS: I've learned to live with Superman being unable to breath in space because that kind of makes sense.

Zod's death played out as a 'death by cop' for me, because the only way Clark could even have Zod --one of Krypton's greatest generals and who was rapidly powering up -- in a chokehold was Zod allowing himself somewhat to be placed in that position: he was mad with grief and suicidal by that time.

I see where you're coming from, though, and I put this down to the mediocre choreography of the fight (in comparison to Smallville's), which didn't really show Zod's descent into suicidal grief, so it could be read either way.
 
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It may have just been the way that I took it. From what I read into it, Zod's mission became the death of Kal-El as opposed to his own end. He spent half of the movie looking for him and this was just his true breaking point. During their first confrontation, Kal-El attacked him, so he was on the defensive. This was the first time that he truly attacked and tried to kill Kal-El.
 
Zod's death played out as a 'death by cop' for me, because the only way Clark could even have Zod --one of Krypton's greatest generals and who was rapidly powering up -- in a chokehold was Zod allowing himself somewhat to be placed in that position: he was mad with grief and suicidal by that time.

I see where you're coming from, though, and I put this down to the mediocre choreography of the fight (in comparison to Smallville's), which didn't really show Zod's descent into suicidal grief, so it could be read either way.

I think it became clear that Zod was trying to commit suicide after smashing through the satellite and going back down to earth. Instead of trying to break free from Superman, he aimed his heat vision at the civvies. It's pretty obvious he wanted to die, from what I saw.
 
I am concerned for the film, due to Goyer's recent comments which fleshed out his aesthetic on violence and interpretation of the characters. I do not agree with his assessment that Superman has to kill. It was difficult enough accepting that he continued the Burton-era interpretation of Batman and had him off so many villains in the trilogy, but to force that decision on Superman who is so-far removed from moronic violence is irritating and disrespectful of the characterization. From the storytelling standpoint, it robs the franchise of some vitaltiy when the hero kills the villain in the third reel. There are innumerable ways to stop villains without killing them; Superman vs. the Elite showed this quite well.

In short, I am not too excited about seeing a murderous Batman and a murderous Superman sharing the screen together. Hopefully one of the producers or executives will put their foot/feet down and ensure that the two popular icons are not reduced to jackbooted thugs.
 
If he wants the killing to be a great moment in Superman's life and inter-movie character arc, he should have built it up properly throughout the film rather than tacking it on at the last minute without adjusting the rest of the script. As it is, it was executed extremely poorly, mostly due to it being implemented at the last minute.
In what way did that need to implemented through the rest of the script? This character doesn't have any need to contemplate the idea that he might have to kill until the moment it's really put in front of him. And he reacts accordingly. We see his value of life throughout the whole film, but the idea of actively taking a life is something he hasn't needed to ponder. I just don't really buy the argument that there needed to be more development on that front. He's just a young man trying to figure out who he is, until he's forced into an impossible situation and makes the only decision he thinks will rectify it.
 
I am concerned for the film, due to Goyer's recent comments which fleshed out his aesthetic on violence and interpretation of the characters. I do not agree with his assessment that Superman has to kill. It was difficult enough accepting that he continued the Burton-era interpretation of Batman and had him off so many villains in the trilogy, but to force that decision on Superman who is so-far removed from moronic violence is irritating and disrespectful of the characterization. From the storytelling standpoint, it robs the franchise of some vitaltiy when the hero kills the villain in the third reel. There are innumerable ways to stop villains without killing them; Superman vs. the Elite showed this quite well.

In short, I am not too excited about seeing a murderous Batman and a murderous Superman sharing the screen together. Hopefully one of the producers or executives will put their foot/feet down and ensure that the two popular icons are not reduced to jackbooted thugs.

Yes, I think Superman should have killed at the grand finale of the series, like maybe MOS3 or a Justice League type situation. If he WAS going to kill.

"There are innumerable ways to stop villains without killing them." If you have the genre which allows for convenient "outs", sure. What Snyder and Goyer did was pull that genre away from him, forcing him to kill. Which is unfair, especially since they will need that genre to the max for the JL movie ;)

" a murderous Batman and a murderous Superman sharing the screen together."

This Batman probably won't have killed. Besides the word murderous implies that he intended to kill Zod in the first place. It was a last resort, and he felt REALLY guilty about it.

The producers would be the first guys to make our icons thugs. John Peters wanted Supes to look like a caged killer ;)

I don't like Goyer's attitude of "I did it before in Begins, so it's okay now." It wasn't okay in Begins, and I personally don't think it was an optimal thing to do to Superman, but it was reasonably well-handled, IMHO.

They need to show the effects of killing and the damage he was somewhat responsible on the mind of Superman WITHOUT making him a guilt-ridden brooding hero. That'll be a hard balance to achieve.
 
I think it became clear that Zod was trying to commit suicide after smashing through the satellite and going back down to earth. Instead of trying to break free from Superman, he aimed his heat vision at the civvies. It's pretty obvious he wanted to die, from what I saw.

That's how I saw it as well.
 
I am concerned for the film, due to Goyer's recent comments which fleshed out his aesthetic on violence and interpretation of the characters. I do not agree with his assessment that Superman has to kill. It was difficult enough accepting that he continued the Burton-era interpretation of Batman and had him off so many villains in the trilogy, but to force that decision on Superman who is so-far removed from moronic violence is irritating and disrespectful of the characterization. From the storytelling standpoint, it robs the franchise of some vitaltiy when the hero kills the villain in the third reel. There are innumerable ways to stop villains without killing them; Superman vs. the Elite showed this quite well.

In short, I am not too excited about seeing a murderous Batman and a murderous Superman sharing the screen together. Hopefully one of the producers or executives will put their foot/feet down and ensure that the two popular icons are not reduced to jackbooted thugs.
Jumping to lots of conclusions there, eh? Given Goyer's script/characterization in TDK trilogy, I don't think you'll be seeing Batman murdering anybody.
 
Jumping to lots of conclusions there, eh? Given Goyer's script/characterization in TDK trilogy, I don't think you'll be seeing Batman murdering anybody.

Ra's Al Ghul
Harvey Dent
League of Shadows members
Talia Al Ghul

He killed them.
 
That stupid counter-argument again.

"What about the Avengers ?!?!?!"

Well, to be fair, an awful lot of people who complain about MOS bring up the Avengers and Marvel movies as is they are the paragon of what superhero movies should be (though I consider them snooze-fests and stupid to boot. Why no, I'm not a Marvel fangirl. ;) )

This was in the follow up to the avengers film this past summer. funny enough.

Now hold up here. I thought that the epitome of good story-telling is to have everything explained and done in one film. Are you telling me that the marvelous Marvel films failed to follow this golden rule? How. Dare. They.
 
Wanton destruction is cool in the Marvel movies because they are fun and light-hearted.

Sure.
 
Well, to be fair, an awful lot of people who complain about MOS bring up the Avengers and Marvel movies as is they are the paragon of what superhero movies should be (though I consider them snooze-fests and stupid to boot. Why no, I'm not a Marvel fangirl. ;) )

Now hold up here. I thought that the epitome of good story-telling is to have everything explained and done in one film. Are you telling me that the marvelous Marvel films failed to follow this golden rule? How. Dare. They.

No one's saying Marvel makes the best superhero movies evar. If anything, DC is probably thought of more as the gold standard since it has a longer cinematic history (although I could be well off-base here!). I don't get why there's the need to cheaply reduce the argument to DC vs Marvel just because the death and destruction from The Avengers is the oft-used comparison for Man of Steel's.

Personally I felt TA was more entertaining and the superior in executing its story, while MoS was more ambitious and had the better story, but lacking in the entertainment and execution department.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you mention before that you haven't seen The Avengers? If you haven't, what are you basing your obvious dislike for it on? Or are you making this about DC vs Marvel because you're a DC fangirl?
 
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No one's saying Marvel makes the best superhero movies evar. If anything, DC is probably thought of more as the gold standard since it has a longer cinematic history (although I could be well off-base here!). I don't get why is there the need to cheaply reduce the argument to DC vs Marvel just because the death and destruction from The Avengers is the oft-used comparison for Man of Steel's.

Like I said, I just use the Marvel comparison because all the cool kids do it. ;) Pretty much everyone has compared TA to MOS in some way, either to point out how dumb TA is, or how dumb MOS is.

Personally I felt TA was more entertaining and the superior in executing its story, but MoS was more ambitious and had the better story, but lacking in the entertainment and execution department.

Maybe. I was quite entertained by MOS, and the execution didn't bother me, whereas Marvel films tend to bore me, and sometimes the humor is just dumb.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you mention before that you haven't seen The Avengers? If you haven't, what are you basing your obvious dislike for it on? Or are you making this about DC vs Marvel because you're a DC fangirl?

My darling, I'm so pleased you remember my other posts. :hrt:

You are correct, I haven't seen TA, and am cheerfully determined to avoid it for as long as possible.

I have, however, seen other Marvel films. I was forced to see Iron Man 1 and 2. All I remember from the films is a vaguely entertaining scene in an airplane hangar, fire, and RDJ. Out of the two films, that's what I recall. I don't even remember how I felt going out of the theaters. Like, I can tell you that MI4 or 5 or whatever was kind of ho-hum for me, and I can tell you that I was vastly entertained by Ghost Rider, even if it's kind of stupid.

But Iron Man films are just kind of bleh. I do admit that I am more of a DC fangirl; I only have the most vague of interests in Spiderman, and I don't care for any of the live action X-Men films ( I did used to collect the comics, and I will forever have a soft spot for Gambit, Warren and Storm).
So yeah, anyway, I am a DC girl. Marvel characters don't really hold my interest at all, and the live action films haven't helped in that regard.
 
ill never understand how someone can only like dc or marvel. The types of characters are so similar, and there are so many characters on either side that it's hard to dislike all marvel or dc characters.
 
I like both but I gravitate to WB/DC's cinematic offerings because I'm not a fan of Whedon.
 
ill never understand how someone can only like dc or marvel. The types of characters are so similar, and there are so many characters on either side that it's hard to dislike all marvel or dc characters.

I guess. But I mean, it's like favorite colors, or liking cats over dogs, or something. Something intrigues or pings you a certain way.
 
Like I said, I just use the Marvel comparison because all the cool kids do it. ;) Pretty much everyone has compared TA to MOS in some way, either to point out how dumb TA is, or how dumb MOS is.

Sure, TA vs MoS is brought up all the time, which is a valid comparison (big explosions, a world at stake, a city demolished, and men in tights).

I appreciate a good snark as much as the next geek-inclined poster, but not at the expense of possibly derailing a thread, especially one where there have been well-articulated to-and-fros in the past few pages from the likes of The Question, BlueLantern, DA_Champion and Mjölnir on this side of the tracks, and the likes of The Guard, Marvin and your good self on the other.

Nothing wrong with having a preference for one over the other, but Marvel vs DC arguments never get pretty.

My darling, I'm so pleased you remember my other posts. :hrt:

Always have time for people who make their point eloquently -- which means most everybody in this thread, even if I don't agree with them all the time.

You are correct, I haven't seen TA, and am cheerfully determined to avoid it for as long as possible.

I have, however, seen other Marvel films. I was forced to see Iron Man 1 and 2. All I remember from the films is a vaguely entertaining scene in an airplane hangar, fire, and RDJ. Out of the two films, that's what I recall. I don't even remember how I felt going out of the theaters. Like, I can tell you that MI4 or 5 or whatever was kind of ho-hum for me, and I can tell you that I was vastly entertained by Ghost Rider, even if it's kind of stupid.

But Iron Man films are just kind of bleh. I do admit that I am more of a DC fangirl; I only have the most vague of interests in Spiderman, and I don't care for any of the live action X-Men films ( I did used to collect the comics, and I will forever have a soft spot for Gambit, Warren and Storm).
So yeah, anyway, I am a DC girl. Marvel characters don't really hold my interest at all, and the live action films haven't helped in that regard.

Wow, you really aren't fond of Marvel movies! Ghost Rider over Iron Man! Aren't you the strange one? :woot: (Must be a Nicholas Cage fan.)

(For a Marvel movie you might like [though it's Fox] maybe The Wolverine as a recommendation if you haven't seen it. Hugh Jackman, Japan and ninjas.)
 
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Ra's Al Ghul
Harvey Dent
League of Shadows members
Talia Al Ghul

He killed them.
But he murders none of them. He doesn't kill the League of Shadows members OR Ra's Al Ghul. He puts them in danger (he expects them to get out and survive, they're a group of goddamn ninjas and assassins. He's using it as a distraction so he can escape, NOT to kill them), but that is hardly the same thing as killing, let alone murdering.

Goyer deliberately makes his rule of no killing a huge part of his code, and he doesn't deliberately kill Harvey, he decides that it's worth risking his code to save an innocent life. Same goes with Talia - he realizes his code is much less important than the entire city. But none of them are 'murder.' It's not like he wants to just kill people all the time. He sometimes is put into circumstance that forces him to decide what's truly important.
 
Sure, TA vs MoS is brought up all the time, which is a valid comparison (big explosions, a world at stake, a city demolished, and men in tights).

I appreciate a good snark as much as the next geek-inclined poster, but not at the expense of possibly derailing a thread, especially one where there have been well-articulated to-and-fros in the past few pages from the likes of The Question, BlueLantern, DA_Champion and Mjölnir on this side of the tracks, and the likes of The Guard, Marvin and your good self on the other.

I agree that they could be used for comparison and contrast, but I get annoyed when people basically wave over at Marvel films and say that MOS should have been more like that, but then they get all insulted when someone says something negative about TA.

I say pfffft. Sorry. I'm not going to apologize for some well-deserved snark on people who like to wave TA around like it's some cinematic achievement because it used a montage. Seriously, guys. A montage.

Just out of curiosity, did anyone feel weepy, or actually cry during the montage? I mean, the viewers, not the characters.

Always have time for people who make their point eloquently -- which means most everybody in this thread, even if I don't agree with them all the time.

You're a doll. And also, ha. Because I know my posts are mostly incoherent. Besides, in two years, it'll be you explaining to me why MOS2/BvS/The Greatest Bromance Ever is the best film so far, while I froth angrily at all the stupid things that went wrong.

Probably I'll have to break up with the DC-movie verse, and go back to reading comics, while consoling myself by watching the oil rig scene over and over again. "I'll always have Henry Cavill's abs", will be my new motto, and I'll vow to never watch another of the films. Until the next one comes out of course, and I'll go to see it, and love it, while everyone who loved the second film will hate it.

Such is the circle of life in fandom. -grin-

Wow, you really aren't fond of Marvel movies! Ghost Rider over Iron Man! Aren't you the strange one? :woot: (Must be a Nicholas Cage fan.)

You have no idea how weird things can get with me. Someday I'll regale you with tales The Prancing Pony. As much as I love Lord of the Rings, I do so enjoy mocking it. I can't wait for MOS on DVD. It's going to be so entertaining to make fun of it. :p

With Iron Man vs. Ghost Rider, man, I don't know. Ghost Rider isn't a film I'll go out of my way to watch, but I did like it. I think there were a lot of flaws, but overall, I was entertained. Iron Man just felt really, really long.

(For a Marvel movie you might like [though it's Fox] maybe The Wolverine as a recommendation if you haven't seen it. Hugh Jackman, Japan and ninjas.)

See, but, it's Wolverine. And not Gambit. So therein lies my problem. I'm not a big Wolverine fan. But I could always give it a try. Nothing could be worse than The Musketeer. Or Dr. Zhivago.
 
I am concerned for the film, due to Goyer's recent comments which fleshed out his aesthetic on violence and interpretation of the characters. I do not agree with his assessment that Superman has to kill. It was difficult enough accepting that he continued the Burton-era interpretation of Batman and had him off so many villains in the trilogy, but to force that decision on Superman who is so-far removed from moronic violence is irritating and disrespectful of the characterization. From the storytelling standpoint, it robs the franchise of some vitaltiy when the hero kills the villain in the third reel. There are innumerable ways to stop villains without killing them; Superman vs. the Elite showed this quite well.

In short, I am not too excited about seeing a murderous Batman and a murderous Superman sharing the screen together. Hopefully one of the producers or executives will put their foot/feet down and ensure that the two popular icons are not reduced to jackbooted thugs.

Well while I"m not sure on what Ben's Batman will be like, I think Snyder has mentioned that Zod's death in MOS was his way of establishing Henry's Superman in having that "No Kill" policy.

So I don't think we'll be seeing Henry's Superman kill off any more of his villains, at least not the sentient ones (robots and A.I.'s like Brainiac could be a whole different ball game). Snyder has been quoted on saying that one of the biggest reasons as to why he had Superman kill Zod was because he wanted to give an explanation as to why superman wouldn't kill in the future.

Now while there are those who may or may not agree with how Snyder went about establishing that code for Superman, I think it's somewhat safe to say at the moment that we won't be seeing superman kill off his villains like how Burton's batman would.
 
I agree that they could be used for comparison and contrast, but I get annoyed when people basically wave over at Marvel films and say that MOS should have been more like that, but then they get all insulted when someone says something negative about TA.

I say pfffft. Sorry. I'm not going to apologize for some well-deserved snark on people who like to wave TA around like it's some cinematic achievement because it used a montage. Seriously, guys. A montage.

Just out of curiosity, did anyone feel weepy, or actually cry during the montage? I mean, the viewers, not the characters.

I personally didn't really care for The Avengers, but I recognise this as an issue of personal taste. It's the 5th highest-rated comic book movie on IMDB (last I checked), it got 92% on rotten tomatoes, it exceeded box office expectations by bringing in 1.51 billion dollars and is partly responsible for Iron Man 3 doubling the gross of either of the two previous Iron Man movies. Overall, critics like it very much, audiences like it very much, moneybags like it very much, and that's the big picture. It's important to try and understand why people liked it, and why you didn't, in a more substantial way than "those people are dumb" or "those people have an agenda against DC, they're haters".

The montage was in the Avengers, it does matter and it's certainly better than not having a montage, but it does not a great deal in my opinion. I personally didn't cry. There are other differences, though. New York did not seem as damaged. It's also a different viewing experience, the camera in MoS largely focused on showing the carnage and destruction (explicitly acknowledged by Snyder), whereas in TA it focused on efforts to prevent the carnage and destruction.

The most important difference is that these are completely different movies in spite of their superficially similar plots. The purpose of TA was to show the heroes overcome their differences to work together, so that we could see how powerful they would be if they worked in unision. It's very geeky escapist fantasy, it's not serious or ambitious at all in my opinion, but it succeeded in delivering what it was selling. It was done in a lighthearted and comedic tone which fit the point of the movie. Thor, Hulk, Black Widow, Iron Man, and Captain America each had a productive role.

MoS is only similar to TA if we are so superficial as to reduce the whole movie to "A hero emerges to stop an alien invasion centred on a major city". That's not really what the movies are about, the alien invasions are just plot devices to challenge the hero(es). MoS, in its previews and in its opening act, claimed to be about more things: about alienation and finding a place in the world, about free will, about Jesus Christ, and apparently about the ethics of murder. All lofty ambitions, more interesting and more ambitious to the goal of "these heroes will be stronger as a team than alone". MoS was selling a message I wanted to see. It was selling a message that audiences wanted to see: the movie broke 150 million in its opening weekend in spite of bad reviews. Unfortunately, MoS didn't succeed on any of those counts, it didn't deliver on any of its core messages. It did about as well as Prometheus did exploring what the ancient astronaut hypothesis would mean if true, or as Star Trek into Darkness did exploring the consequences of the security state and terrorism. Everything character-related was superficial, and often contradictory. Clark doesn't really find a place in the world in any concrete way, he doesn't make meaningful choices with consequences as he reacts rather than acts, the Jesus allegory is superficial in the extreme, and the ethics of murder are delegated to sequels. MoS was, effectively, a literary cocktease.
 
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In what way did that need to implemented through the rest of the script? This character doesn't have any need to contemplate the idea that he might have to kill until the moment it's really put in front of him. And he reacts accordingly. We see his value of life throughout the whole film, but the idea of actively taking a life is something he hasn't needed to ponder. I just don't really buy the argument that there needed to be more development on that front. He's just a young man trying to figure out who he is, until he's forced into an impossible situation and makes the only decision he thinks will rectify it.

The most important reason to build it up as they want it to be a major story point. Immense character moments should be built up to, I think that's pretty self-evident. For example:
- The fight against the giant metal squid was built up to because Jor-El had previously said that only by testing his limits would he ever know his abilities, and they actually used CGI to morph Cavill's face into that of Christopher Reeve when he is rising against the gravity beam;
- The fight against the machine in Metropolis is built up to because we had seen the emergence of a camaraderie between the military and Superman in the Smallville fight, and this was the payoff;
Those two fights are integrated into the plot, the Zod fight is not. It was pasted on after the entire rest of the script had been written.

The other issue is that the audience was bloody tired at that point. The natural climax of the film (a crosscut between the fight with the giant metal squid and the ship in Metropolis) had just happened, and people were tired and looking for resolution. Instead, an overly dramatic fight with Zod involving terrible dialogue happens, with louder music, louder sound effects, and greater carnage and stakes than in the actual climax, it is thus trying to be the real climax, but it fails. Audiences everywhere where going "no, no, no, let this end, please" (look up some reviews) and instead they see a 5-10 minute carnage sequence. People were tuning out of a tremendous character moment, when they should have been tuning in. That takes away the emotional punch.

Finally, they don't change the aftermath. Clark visiting Martha, Clark being hired by the DP, Superman taking down the drone, all of that was in the script when the other movie was written, the movie not involving the murder of Zod. As they changed the movie, they should have changed the ending as well.
 
I was very recently looking back on some of the old interviews with the Man of Steel cast members, and I came across a youtube video featuring Charles Roven (one of the film's producers). Here, Roven briefly touches on the physicality of Goyer's Kryptonians, stating that "even members of the population and members of the citizenry" with diverse occupations (e.g., scientists, politicians) are essentially "warlike" in nature. He similarly advances the claim that it is a "military culture" to which all Kryptonians belong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm1qf_Hf5HA&feature=player_embedded#t=150

For those of you who still find difficulty making sense of how the scientist Jor-El could exhibit the kind of physical prowess that would enable him to defeat a warrior-born like Zod, the aforementioned text and video may offer little satisfaction, but it is nevertheless interesting to see that some thought was actually put into what appears to be a controversial scene -- at least in this thread.

One possible interpretation of Roven's comments is that Kryptonians, by default, are genetically engineered to be warriors (much like Captain America) on top of their designated (primary) roles except, of course, when the intent is for certain members of society to have no additional purpose aside from safeguarding their planet. In other words, the people of Krypton can fulfill a singular purpose and still have it within themselves to excel in combat.
 
I was very recently looking back on some of the old interviews with the Man of Steel cast members, and I came across a youtube video featuring Charles Roven (one of the film's producers). Here, Roven briefly touches on the physicality of Goyer's Kryptonians, stating that "even members of the population and members of the citizenry" with diverse occupations (e.g., scientists, politicians) are essentially "warlike" in nature. He similarly advances the claim that it is a "military culture" to which all Kryptonians belong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm1qf_Hf5HA&feature=player_embedded#t=150

For those of you who still find difficulty making sense of how the scientist Jor-El could exhibit the kind of physical prowess that would enable him to defeat a warrior-born like Zod, the aforementioned text and video may offer little satisfaction, but it is nevertheless interesting to see that some thought was actually put into what appears to be a controversial scene -- at least in this thread.

One possible interpretation of Roven's comments is that Kryptonians, by default, are genetically engineered to be warriors (much like Captain America) on top of their designated (primary) roles except, of course, when the intent is for certain members of society to have no additional purpose aside from safeguarding their planet. In other words, the people of Krypton can fulfill a singular purpose and still have it within themselves to excel in combat.

That, and if you include the fact that Jor-el had a battle armor to use for himself, one that is said to have been within his family branch for generations, it's possible that Jor-el himself has come from a line of warriors but was bred to be a scientist on Krypton.
 
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