BvS David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

[STARMAN]

Instead of discussing the film's pros and cons, this almost always deteriorates into making the other person admit they're wrong.

 

[Marvin]

The problem with Superman is that everyone thinks he is an old-fashioned character but no one wants him to change.

I thought that before some of the fans started pulling this new stuff.
I think the more accurate observation is that there is a divide, too bad the old fashioned fans didn't support the old fashioned superman more when they had their chance..

 

[The Batman]

I think people need to stop blaming STM/Nolan's Batman/Avengers for the type of reaction MOS gets.

 

[Marvin]

I think people need to stop blaming STM... MOS gets.

You really think if that donner stuff didn't exist, especially as many peoples introduction to the character and as a large part of american cinema this film would have been received in this exact same way?

(Andrew O'Hehir)
"Man of Steel" is second-tier and third-generation Chris Nolan-flavored neo-superhero material.'
-thank you tdk trilogy

(Mara Reinstein)
"No fun costume change in a phone booth, no wowing humans with his powers and no repartee with reporter Lois Lane."
-thank you STM

That's just the beginning. We can only speak for ourselves though.

 

[The Question]

You really think if that donner stuff didn't exist, especially as many peoples introduction to the character and as a large part of american cinema this film would have been received in this exact same way?

Yes.

Well, yes and no.

People wouldn't react the exact same way because the Richard Donner films wouldn't be brought up as a point of comparison. But the flaws in the film, the flaws that most people take issue with, exist wether the Richard Donner movies do or not.

 

[Vid Electricz]

Yes.

Well, yes and no.

People wouldn't react the exact same way because the Richard Donner films wouldn't be brought up as a point of comparison. But the flaws in the film, the flaws that most people take issue with, exist wether the Richard Donner movies do or not.

Pretty much. My issues with MOS have nothing to do with the Donner films (which I certainly don't think are the zenith of Superman's representation in popular media).

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

You really think if that donner stuff didn't exist, especially as many peoples introduction to the character and as a large part of american cinema this film would have been received in this exact same way?

(Andrew O'Hehir)
"Man of Steel" is second-tier and third-generation Chris Nolan-flavored neo-superhero material.'
-thank you tdk trilogy

(Mara Reinstein)
"No fun costume change in a phone booth, no wowing humans with his powers and no repartee with reporter Lois Lane."
-thank you STM

That's just the beginning. We can only speak for ourselves though.

"It's not the classic Superman, it's just another Batman movie without the brains, and it isn't fun like TA."

Okay, I made that quote up. But MOS gets compared to TA all the time (might have to do with the avengers). It really kind of isn't fair to compare the Donner/Nolan/Whedon features with MOS. They were (arguably) pretty much the best of the superhero genre at the time of creation.

Noone says..nevermind. Iron Man 3 was judged with quite a bit of scrutiny for not being as good as TA.

DARN YOU TA FOR BEING SUCH A QUALITY FEATURE!

 

[STARMAN]

If we're going to use other comic book movies as a comparison, then I can see comparing MOS with ASM.

 

[DA_Champion]

Very few people critiqued batman begins for departing fron the burtonverse, because it built something independently sound. Batman Begins had 85% and not 56% on rotten tomatoes. People will by and large tolerate reboots if the reboots are good.

Also, if it was not for the donner movies, MoS would not have made 150 million on opening weekend. Peoppe went to find out more about a beloved character. Why is he beloved? Partly due to Donner.

 

[NosfeRomas]

Also, if it was not for the donner movies, MoS would not have made 150 million on opening weekend. Peoppe went to find out more about a beloved character. Why is he beloved? Partly due to Donner.

I don't think so. It's been 35 years and i'm pretty sure people outside of the comic book community rememer more the fuzz about Superman The Movie than the movie itself. Donner did introduce the character and gave it a new face (Christopher Reeve's) but since those last 2 god-awful movies the hero was silent to the very mainstream audience. I know people who know superman as a character but had no idea Smallville was about Superman.

Man of Steel made money because of Superman and him alone.

 

[DA_Champion]

All right, the donner movies have not contributed to superman's ongoing popularity ;-)

 

[The Batman]

You really think if that donner stuff didn't exist, especially as many peoples introduction to the character and as a large part of american cinema this film would have been received in this exact same way?

(Andrew O'Hehir)
"Man of Steel" is second-tier and third-generation Chris Nolan-flavored neo-superhero material.'
-thank you tdk trilogy

(Mara Reinstein)
"No fun costume change in a phone booth, no wowing humans with his powers and no repartee with reporter Lois Lane."
-thank you STM

That's just the beginning. We can only speak for ourselves though.

STM didn't invent interaction with Lois, people being wowed by Superman, and it especially didn't invent changes in phone booths. In fact, it averted the phone booth change completely.

Again I have to ask: Do SHH! posters who critique STM actually pay attention to it?

As for comparison's to Nolan's Batman, its not TDKT's fault WB decided to essentially make a Superman version of TDK series. Nolan's Batfranchise shouldn't be used as a scapegoat for why people didn't care for MOS because WB decided to give the go ahead to a "Chris Nolan flavored" Superman film.

Very few people critiqued batman begins for departing fron the burtonverse, because it built something independently sound. Batman Begins had 85% and not 56% on rotten tomatoes. People will by and large tolerate reboots if the reboots are good.

Agreed. Batman Begins ends with Batman letting the villain die, and has scenes where he recklessly destroys cop cars. Yet its still considered one of the best CBM's of all time. People (For the most part) will go along with changes as long as you do it effectively.

 

[Marvin]

Very few people critiqued batman begins for departing fron the burtonverse, because it built something independently sound. Batman Begins had 85% and not 56% on rotten tomatoes. People will by and large tolerate reboots if the reboots are good.

Try,
people also didn't complain about the departure from the previous batman films because they were considered god awful, very recent and amount to various takes on the somewhat undefined character in pop culture. From the popular adam west to the burton the clooney to the animated, there is a ton of undefined batman in our mainstream of which Nolan's bats had little solidified contesting. What's more there has never been a batman in media(outside the comics) as celebrated as american cinema has superman. Reeve was him, Kidder is Lois for a generation that has grown up and is now foaming at the mouth to speak their piece(in forums and reviews).

What's more, batman is far more welcoming in tone to grounded real world consequence and characterization(and grounded real world is what's in now). Giving superman a moral dilemma is not the same as given one to batman. Givng tdk this big feeling of loss and sparking something as bold as that in a genre based on colours and winning is going to be hard to replicate in a Superman film if his fans have any say. Addressing terrorism in this decade, in a cbm was great as long as it was batman, broaching such themes in a superman movie...post donner..no. Presenting the birth of a no kill rule in thor would be far easier than in Superman, plain and simple. Especially with the likes of waid.

I'm just saying, there more going on than just burton and rt scores.
At it's base core, people are more welcoming of reboots depending on how they remember the last bunch.

A hear ago whom is it(actor) the great majority thought of when you mentioned superman. Before 2005 who was it for batman?

 

[Marvin]

Yes.

Well, yes and no.

People wouldn't react the exact same way because the Richard Donner films wouldn't be brought up as a point of comparison. But the flaws in the film, the flaws that most people take issue with, exist wether the Richard Donner movies do or not.

Movies with flaws tend to have said flaws pointed out. Don't mistake that I'm asserting this film is flawless and all criticism is due to donner. I make the point that this would be a very different paradigm had those films no existed. What's more if this was an original property.

 

[DA_Champion]

Yo guys, superman can't change in phonebooths anymore, large parts of the united states don't even have public phones anymore, they are disappearing from public consciousness and in a few years kids will see a phone booth and not know what they are.

 

[Marvin]

STM didn't invent interaction with Lois, people being wowed by Superman, and it especially didn't invent changes in phone booths. In fact, it averted the phone booth change completely.

Again I have to ask: Do SHH! posters who critique STM actually pay attention to it?

No it didn't invent it, it solidified it, made it iconic, and is the point of reference for many(ask brian singer back in 2004).
Next you'll be saying Reeve didn't invent superman when the argument as never been that but rather he's embodied what much of our generation sees of him in live action I also wonder about paying attention.

I wasn't actually referring to the phone booth part of the quote but, I do recall superman doing "fun costumed changes" in various booths in that continuity, someone one might compare to MOS.

As for comparison's to Nolan's Batman, its not TDKT's fault WB decided to essentially make a Superman version of TDK series. Nolan's Batfranchise shouldn't be used as a scapegoat for why people didn't care for MOS because WB decided to give the go ahead to a "Chris Nolan flavored" Superman film.

Would that criticism exist if this critic had no knowledge or disdain for the "neo-superhero".
Ergo why the resolution that much of the criticism mos faced is due to "..." existing, must stand.
Seems pretty cut and dry.

 

[The Batman]

No it didn't invent it, it solidified it, made it iconic, and is the point of reference for many(ask brian singer back in 2004).
Next you'll be saying Reeve didn't invent superman when the argument as never been that but rather he's embodied what much of our generation sees of him in live action I also wonder about paying attention.

I wasn't actually referring to the phone booth part of the quote but, I do recall superman doing "fun costumed changes" in various booths in that continuity, someone one might compare to MOS.

Superman was already iconic by the time the film came out, hence the reason why making a Superman film was such a big deal in the first place. And then you decide to build some weird straw man argument about what you assume I'd say about Reeve.

Oh yeah...NOW you weren't specifically referring to phone booths. How convenient.

 

[Marvin]

Superman was already iconic by the time the film came out, hence the reason why making a Superman film was such a big deal in the first place. And then you decide to build some weird straw man argument about what you assume I'd say about Reeve.

One strawman deserves another is the old saying.
However, it was actually an analogy to point out what you are doing. I said stm is the film that embodies the mythology in live action for a generation, never said two worlds about invention(that was you, ergo the strawman). I went on to say that's like me saying Reeve embodies superman for that same generation, if you were to apply your demonstrated rational here it would akin to you saying reeve didn't invent him. That's great, not what I'm talking about though so...
I wouldn't say that with bond because there seems to be plenty for our generation to choose from when it comes to the staple that embodies the mythology.

Oh yeah...NOW you weren't specifically referring to phone booths. How convenient.

All that stuff, "fun costume changes" included being very much present in the donner film and not at all present in the mos one. Given the premise of the argument I don't see what's missing here. The fact that you zeroed in on the word phonebooths and I didn't?
Phone booths seem more convenient for you given you commentary on shh. My point exits with or without said booths.

 

[The Batman]

One strawman deserves another is the old saying.
However, it was actually an analogy to point out what you are doing. I said stm is the film that embodies the mythology in live action for a generation, never said two worlds about invention.

At best, this is you actually clarifying your initially muddled point, because this was what I actually responded to:

You really think if that donner stuff didn't exist, especially as many peoples introduction to the character and as a large part of american cinema this film would have been received in this exact same way?

(Andrew O'Hehir)
"Man of Steel" is second-tier and third-generation Chris Nolan-flavored neo-superhero material.'
-thank you tdk trilogy

(Mara Reinstein)
"No fun costume change in a phone booth, no wowing humans with his powers and no repartee with reporter Lois Lane."
-thank you STM

That's just the beginning. We can only speak for ourselves though.

Hence why I said what I said. You said nothing about "embodying", and if that was the idea you wanted to convey, you used the wrong wording to do so.

All that stuff, "fun costume changes" included being very much present in the donner film and not at all present in the mos one. Given the premise of the argument I don't see what's missing here. The fact that you zeroed in on the word phonebooths and I didn't?
Phone booths seem more convenient for you given you commentary on shh. My point exits with or without said booths.

Phone booths are being mentioned because it was mentioned in a QUOTE YOU USED TO PROVE YOUR ARGUMENT. No convenience for me at all. Her statement was "No fun costume change in a phone booth", which is what Superman was known for, not "No fun costume changes".

Phone booths or not, your argument is poor, because everything Reinstein talked about are not concepts exclusive to Donner's version. Furthermore, Donner's version isn't the only version to have had a massive effect on how pop culture views the character. Like I said, Superman was iconic before STM.

 

[Mysteryman]

Yo guys, superman can't change in phonebooths anymore, large parts of the united states don't even have public phones anymore, they are disappearing from public consciousness and in a few years kids will see a phone booth and not know what they are.

Superman couldnt even change in phone booths in STM.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Superman couldnt even change in phone booths in STM.

Yeah, he just "morphed" into his costume. Even during that time, I thought it could have been done better. The GR show did it better

 

[The Guard]

Did we ever see Clark change into Superman in MAN OF STEEL? I don't think we did.

 

[Marvin]

At best, this is you actually clarifying your initially muddled point, because this was what I actually responded to:

Hence why I said what I said. You said nothing about "embodying", and if that was the idea you wanted to convey, you used the wrong wording to do so.

I can see how my clarification doesn't line up with entirely with my initial point but I don't see how it contradicts it. Or is worthy of your rebut.
Embody is another term I'd use in my essay on the matter of donner's existence and it's influence but your right that wasn't in my original post, let's look at it again.
The semantics aren't lost on me, thanks for pointing out the lack of invention in donners films, however I still don't see where anyone proclaimed that.
I also don't see how I'm wrong in the "introduction for many" assertion, was it not?

I clearly never stated donner invented superman as you decided to dispute, pretty sure that happened in 1938. I said had those films not existed and introduced(and embodied) the mythos as strongly as it did.. etc.

Phone booths are being mentioned because it was mentioned in a QUOTE YOU USED TO PROVE YOUR ARGUMENT. No convenience for me at all.

Fun costume changes was in the quote as well, I suppose I should cropped out the first part of his insert and not confused the matters, or better still I should have just cropped out the part about phones seeing as booths and fun costume changes seemingly apply. my bad, my memory confused matters.
[YT]uLAdkuXGOIk[/YT]

Phone booths or not, your argument is poor, because everything Reinstein talked about are not concepts exclusive to Donner's version. Furthermore, Donner's version isn't the only version to have had a massive effect on how pop culture views the character. Like I said, Superman was iconic before STM.

The joker has existed in pop culture for 70 plus years, he wasn't invented in 2008, but what do you think the chances of the next joker being compared to Health ledger are? And the point being made that had heath not done his thing reviews would be different... The problem here is that I'm talking about greater relevance and influence on following iteration and you are hung up on existence in popular culture in general. I would think greater relevance would apply given reeves films made lois/clark repartee as popular as it is.

Your point isn't lost on me however, I could have pulled from another review, perhaps a more specific one, this one happened to be the first in my that screamed preconceptions.

 

[The Batman]

The only problem is that you're acting like STM is the only media version of Supes that has great relevance or influence on latter versions of the character, when that isn't necessarily the case. i'm not "hung up" on anything. Its like trying to pretend that Adam West dosen't have an influence on how people might respond to later versions of Batman just because the Burton films are more recent.

George Reeves and the Fleischer cartoons are two versions that helped mold people's view of Superman, especially the George Reeves version.

 

[PacificBoy]

Did we ever see Clark change into Superman in MAN OF STEEL? I don't think we did.

I don't think we did either, and it'd have been a tad odd if we did. To me, Clark was only comfortable in his own suit so to speak, only truly Superman when he confronted General Swanwick in the desert.

Before then it was a superhero's long first day at the office.