BvS David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

[Smallville13]

Did you find Argo to be better-written than MoS?

I really need to see it again. It's been a while, but I don't remember any jarring dialogue like 'They say it's downhill after the first kiss'. But again, they're very different types of movies.

I guess having a Goyer storyboard, but with Terrio coming in for naturalistic dialogue, and general tidiness, it could work.

 

[daddydivine]

I like some good writing. But lets keep the movie just a little lighthearted. I don't expect or want Citizen Kane.

 

[DA_Champion]

I really need to see it again. It's been a while, but I don't remember any jarring dialogue like 'They say it's downhill after the first kiss'. But again, they're very different types of movies.

I guess having a Goyer storyboard, but with Terrio coming in for naturalistic dialogue, and general tidiness, it could work.

Yeah that might have been the second worst line of the movie.

 

[Fizicks]

I really need to see it again. It's been a while, but I don't remember any jarring dialogue like 'They say it's downhill after the first kiss'. But again, they're very different types of movies.

I guess having a Goyer storyboard, but with Terrio coming in for naturalistic dialogue, and general tidiness, it could work.

I'm actually quite surprised that Nolan didn't polish some of the lines, like that one. I'm guessing part of his role was quality control, and you'd think glaring lines like that would have caught his attention.

Yeah that might have been the second worst line of the movie.

What was the worst line, pray tell?

 

[matrix_ghost]

The delivery is IMO more important. You could have a great script but when the delivery just falls flat , what's the use.
Similarly i think a good actor or actress can work with even limited material and churn out a good performance.

 

[DA_Champion]

What was the worst line, pray tell?

The one that came immediately after.

"I think that only applies to humans" - Clark

Aside from not making any sense, the point about superman is not that he's an alien, but that he's very human.

 

[Hammer!]

The dialogue in Man of Steel was atrocious. The story was rather exceptional, though. Could have made for a Batman Begins type movie. The cast was excellent as well, and Snyder is serviceable. My vote is for Goyer to draft the story, and have the Argo guy and a few other take passes on the script.

No idea why Goyer gets the nod to be "All-time quarterback" and bring to life his vision for all DC properties. DC is in dire need of variety in storytelling.

 

[EssayM]

I think what concerns me the most is that both Goyer and Snyder are credited with "story". I could maybe give Goyer some credit for TDKT (although you could argue those were more Nolan than anything else), but Snyder, whatever you think of him, is definitely not a story guy; it's telling that his most successful movies have been pretty much shot-for-shot translations of graphic novels, where the story is already written. Even Chris Terrio is kind of a weird choice; how does one go from a human-level war drama to writing for an Amazon, an alien, and a billionaire vigilante in a comic book movie?

 

[EssayM]

Hey, double posts!

 

[EssayM]

No idea why Goyer gets the nod to be "All-time quarterback" and bring to life his vision for all DC properties. DC is in dire need of variety in storytelling.

Definitely. That's one of the things I love about the MCU; outside of Joss Whedon, they're not bound to one director/writer, so you can have stuff like Kenneth Branagh directing Thor or Joe Johnston directing Captain America, or even swap them out if the sequel needs to have a different tone (ex. TWS). They get the filmmaker that fits the movie. Meanwhile, DC is just content to ride the Nolan/Goyer/Snyder train as long as it keeps making money. That just frustrates me.

 

[Marvin]

I think what concerns me the most is that both Goyer and Snyder are credited with "story". I could maybe give Goyer some credit for TDKT (although you could argue those were more Nolan than anything else), but Snyder, whatever you think of him, is definitely not a story guy; it's telling that his most successful movies have been pretty much shot-for-shot translations of graphic novels, where the story is already written. Even Chris Terrio is kind of a weird choice; how does one go from a human-level war drama to writing for an Amazon, an alien, and a billionaire vigilante in a comic book movie?

Didn't know Directors, did anything other than make films where the stories are already written. Live and learn I guess.

Definitely. That's one of the things I love about the MCU; outside of Joss Whedon, they're not bound to one director/writer, so you can have stuff like Kenneth Branagh directing Thor or Joe Johnston directing Captain America, or even swap them out if the sequel needs to have a different tone (ex. TWS). They get the filmmaker that fits the movie. Meanwhile, DC is just content to ride the Nolan/Goyer/Snyder train as long as it keeps making money. That just frustrates me.

That probably explains the varying quality over 7 years of MCU films with the same director vs a far more consistent one with 7 years of Nolan directed TKDT.

The amount people that overlook marvels short comings, I'll never understand..though I have admit it tends to happen more when marvel is doing well vs when they are doing so so.

As for exactly what you are talking about, Marvel has like 6 different properties they are pushing, DC has 2 currently with two different directors. They had a third in green lantern and that also had a different director.

On the issue of nolan's involvement as producer. All the mcu films have the same producer.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Chris Nolan has also taken a backseat. I wouldn't be surprised if he felt done with the genre after The Dark Knight. He did Rises to finish his story and was only producer to Man of Steel as a favour and for marketing.

 

[roach]

Christopher Nolan took a back seat because his vision of the characters didn't match up with what WB/DC wanted to do. Nolan did not want a shared universe and wanted to keep the characters separate...which is why at the beginning of production of Man of Steel everyone was saying that the movie was not a shared universe...about a month or two before MOS came out Nolan announced to WB he was done with their superheroes is when we started hearing that MOS would launch the DCCU.

 

[Superman_200]

Christopher Nolan took a back seat because his vision of the characters didn't match up with what WB/DC wanted to do. Nolan did not want a shared universe and wanted to keep the characters separate...which is why at the beginning of production of Man of Steel everyone was saying that the movie was not a shared universe...about a month or two before MOS came out Nolan announced to WB he was done with their superheroes is when we started hearing that MOS would launch the DCCU.

Honestly, I understand Nolan's thinking because I think the same way. The thought of a shared universe makes the movies feel different. I don't know how to describe it but it feels like you are making a higher quality movie when you don't share the universe. That doesn't mean that a shared universe movie is not good, but it is more serious, or has a different quality when the universe is not shared. I would have preferred a universe for Superman that was not shared. Eventually they could do a separate Justice League movie but not use the same actors. That is what I would have liked to happen so I understand where he is coming from.

 

[The Guard]

When the main dialogue complaint people have is something sort of cheesy which is said after the two romantic leads kiss...

I dunno, I don't feel like its a film where dialogue is really all that big an issue.

 

[EssayM]

Didn't know Directors, did anything other than make films where the stories are already written. Live and learn I guess.

There's a difference between "filters an existing script through own creative vision" and "adds cool-looking slo-mo and little else". IMO, Watchmen and 300 pretty much copied exactly the already-successful stories from their respective graphic novels, and the few divergences (like no squid monster in Watchmen) were what everyone complained about. My point was that he's not the best at coming up with original stories, which is why it's weird that he appears to be attempting that here.

That probably explains the varying quality over 7 years of MCU films with the same director vs a far more consistent one with 7 years of Nolan directed TKDT.

The problem is, neither Nolan's nor Snyder's style fits every single DC property. Branagh's style fit Thor, Johnston's style fit Cap, etc. This lets them have the variety that made The Avengers possible. I would much rather have an awesome series with a few "meh" entries than the same thing over and over again until the end of time.

As for exactly what you are talking about, Marvel has like 6 different properties they are pushing, DC has 2 currently with two different directors. They had a third in green lantern and that also had a different director.

First, I don't see how 6-2 is supposed to make DC look better. Second, does Justice League have an official director I haven't heard about yet? Or are you talking about something completely different? And I'm pretty sure they weren't planning on a universe when the GL movie was made.

 

[roach]

Also as a screenwriter I will say this...you can't truly judge a script without reading a script. I know people want to bash Goyer but we don't know what happened behind the scenes of this movie. The line after the kiss could have been something Cavill ad-libbed or was added by an Exec looking to add something to the movie.

 

[EssayM]

Also as a screenwriter I will say this...you can't truly judge a script without reading a script. I know people want to bash Goyer but we don't know what happened behind the scenes of this movie. The line after the kiss could have been something Cavill ad-libbed or was added by an Exec looking to add something to the movie.

True. You never know what could have happened.

 

[Marvin]

There's a difference between "filters an existing script through own creative vision" and "adds cool-looking slo-mo and little else". IMO, Watchmen and 300 pretty much copied exactly the already-successful stories from their respective graphic novels, and the few divergences (like no squid monster in Watchmen) were what everyone complained about. My point was that he's not the best at coming up with original stories, which is why it's weird that he appears to be attempting that here.

Snyder does more than add cool looking snow mo but that would require an appreciation of the craft. However you said snyder needs his stories already existing, I simply added that all directors do, many of which adapt from pre-existing success...etc. If you are talking about adapting from pre-existing story boards, well that's hardly a snyder exclusive.

You're arguing his better films rely on needing to be adapted from graphic novels, I'd argue his better films rely on needing to be adapted from good material, same with any director. I think had he been given the TDK script he would have turned out his best film, but that's me.

The problem is, neither Nolan's nor Snyder's style fits every single DC property. Branagh's style fit Thor, Johnston's style fit Cap, etc. This lets them have the variety that made The Avengers possible. I would much rather have an awesome series with a few "meh" entries than the same thing over and over again until the end of time.

Speaking personally, all the mcu films feel and look similar in design and tone. But that's another discussion. Your point about snyder and nolan not fitting every dc property is misplaced for they haven't been placed on 'every dc property'. It's been one each by my count(if you ignore snyders other work).

First, I don't see how 6-2 is supposed to make DC look better. Second, does Justice League have an official director I haven't heard about yet? Or are you talking about something completely different? And I'm pretty sure they weren't planning on a universe when the GL movie was made.

I wasn't talking about rankings(I'm sure DC has more than 2 quality and marvel less than 6). I was actually referring to this idea that marvel has multiple directors spanning multiple properties. You said marvel has given a different director to each of their various things. I say, same for DC. They have two properties and they have given each one it's own director, period. They had another in green lantern and they gave that film it's own director also.

 

[Marvin]

Also as a screenwriter I will say this...you can't truly judge a script without reading a script. I know people want to bash Goyer but we don't know what happened behind the scenes of this movie. The line after the kiss could have been something Cavill ad-libbed or was added by an Exec looking to add something to the movie.

Outside of the timing, I've never understood the issue with the line. It was very much in a similar vain as the line in Speed only with a literal twist that seemingly goes over some peoples heads.

It's all down hill...

 

[roach]

True. You never know what could have happened.

I've been reading a blog by Terry Rossio and he gives a lot of behind the scenes info on movies he was a part of and thing he's heard as well as screenwriting tips. That's where I got the mantra that you have to read a script before you judge it.

 

[Space Ghost]

Also as a screenwriter I will say this...you can't truly judge a script without reading a script. I know people want to bash Goyer but we don't know what happened behind the scenes of this movie. The line after the kiss could have been something Cavill ad-libbed or was added by an Exec looking to add something to the movie.

This is truth. But how many great movies Goyer wrote until now? The only great project he is attached to is TDK trilogy, and on that one he had the Nolan brothers by his side and only wrote the screenplay for Begins.

 

[roach]

This is truth. But how many great movies Goyer wrote until now? The only great project he is attached to is TDK trilogy, and on that one he had the Nolan brothers by his side and only wrote the screenplay for Begins.

Past productions mean little...Look at John Ridley's films before 12 Years a Slave or Chris Terrio's before Argo.

There has to be a reason that he's constantly getting work...is a constant guest speaker on screenwriting at USC, and give lectures on screenwriting at BAFTA and BFI...if he was as crappy a screenwriter as people believe is he would constantly getting work.

 

[EssayM]

Snyder does more than add cool looking snow mo but that would require an appreciation of the craft. However you said snyder needs his stories already existing, I simply added that all directors do, many of which adapt from pre-existing success...etc. If you are talking about adapting from pre-existing story boards, well that's hardly a snyder exclusive.

You're arguing his better films rely on needing to be adapted from graphic novels, I'd argue his better films rely on needing to be adapted from good material, same with any director. I think had he been given the TDK script he would have turned out his best film, but that's me.

Let me try to clarify: Watchmen and 300 were primarily praised for being exactly like their respective source material, copying the shots and story beats and dialogue almost verbatim. By contrast, his one attempt at an original story (LOTG was based on a book series), where he had full creative control, was Sucker Punch, arguably his worst film. He's a style-over-substance director, and trying to argue otherwise is just silly.

Speaking personally, all the mcu films feel and look similar in design and tone. But that's another discussion. Your point about snyder and nolan not fitting every dc property is misplaced for they haven't been placed on 'every dc property'. It's been one each by my count(if you ignore snyders other work).

I wasn't talking about rankings(I'm sure DC has more than 2 quality and marvel less than 6). I was actually referring to this idea that marvel has multiple directors spanning multiple properties. You said marvel has given a different director to each of their various things. I say, same for DC. They have two properties and they have given each one it's own director, period. They had another in green lantern and they gave that film it's own director also.

As far as I know, GL isn't part of the official DCCU yet, so that leaves Man of Steel, Batman vs. Superman, and Justice League (as the ones that have been officially announced). All three have been/are being written by David Goyer, two have Zack Snyder as director, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised at this point if they threw Snyder into JL to make it three in a row. These are all very different properties, but they're being made by essentially the same talent pool, and that shouldn't be.

 

[EssayM]

Past productions mean little...Look at John Ridley's films before 12 Years a Slave or Chris Terrio's before Argo.

There has to be a reason that he's constantly getting work...is a constant guest speaker on screenwriting at USC, and give lectures on screenwriting at BAFTA and BFI...if he was as crappy a screenwriter as people believe is he would constantly getting work.

Not that he's a crappy screenwriter, but maybe not the infallible god of CBMs that a lot of people seem to think he is. All the TDKs on his resume have to compete with crap like Jumper, Blade:Trinity, Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance, The Unborn, and all the schlocky crap he did before BB saved him. He's a decent writer, but he's not infallible.