DC March '09 Previews

[Darthphere]

While that's a very large blanket statement that I don't entirely agere with, the losers are still the risk-takers either way. Either you risk trying a new comic and it turns out to be s***, which happens like 75% of the time at Marvel and DC (this is Teen Titans since OYL); or you try a new comic, get emotionally invested in the characters, and then it's canceled because no one was willing to take the risk with you (Blue Beetle, Manhunter, Amazing Spider-Girl, the list goes on and on and on and on); or you try a new comic, get emotionally invested in the characters, it actually sells pretty well, and then it's canceled because of some overzealous editor or writer's "vision for the future" that, for whatever reason, that character can't be a part of (alas, poor Batgirl...). That's the kind of thing that breaks a comic fan. I've considered quitting comics altogether because every single really good series with novel, interesting characters seems to get lost in the shuffle, so why bother getting invested in any of them in the first place?

Slow clap.

 

[Aristotle]

I understand you Corp, and I understand you fifthfiend. Yes, sometimes the book sucks, and you gotta drop it like it was Simon Dark. And you don't have to try EVERY new direction or EVERY new book. But fifthfiend, it makes a little more sense when you say "I don't want to take a chance on DC anymore until they prove to me that they deserve it because they've consistently let me down for three years" than to say "I never heard of that character, so **** 'im," because if that was everyone's attitude, we'd never get new characters. And if everyone's attitude had been the OPPOSITE of that, we'd probably still have books like Breach and Chase and Bloodhound and Chronos and Aztek and Anarky.

And that's what I'm getting at, Corp. If there were MORE risk-takers in comicdom, those cancellations wouldn't happen because sales wouldn't lag until the books weren't good anymore, which wouldn't happen, because the companies would try to support their sellers with big names. Not only that, but we'd HAVE more big names, because with a more adventurous fandom, more writers and artists would get "discovered" a lot sooner by the broad majority. Beyond even that, these "visions for the future" would have no support from the top, and there would be no reason to force them on the universes, because sales would be strong linewide, because fandom would realize that, at some point in the last twenty years, both Marvel and DC have been publishing at least one ongoing series for almost every taste, and if fandom would have been adventurous enough to support them, they still would be.

If comics fans didn't ****ing suck, we'd have better, more diverse lines from the Big Two, and the comic book industry as a whole (excluding the manga people, because **** manga, it ****ing sucks) wouldn't be sick and dying.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Or, one could argue that if Marvel or DC really wanted to generate interest in new characters or lesser known characters, they could actually throw their big-name talent at those characters' books, which they almost never do. You'll generally find soon-to-be-big names becoming big names because, against all odds, they've managed to turn whatever s***ty character(s) the publisher has stuck them with into sellers or at least cult hits. Dan Slott's rise to the big leagues coincides with She-Hulk's return to Marvel's A-list. Geoff Johns catapulted himself to giant stardom by plugging away on books no one would've cared about like JSA. And that's great, but they're the exceptions, not the rule.

For every Slott or Johns, there are a dozen Jeff Parkers or John Rogerses or Marc Andreykos--creators making fantastic comics that are ignored because they're writing smaller characters and their names don't grab people's attention. Put Brian Bendis on X-Men: First Class and I bet it would've sold in the top 20, at least, instead of getting canceled barely a year into its ongoing run. Put Geoff Johns on Aquaman (which he actually wants to do!) and Aquaman would rise to the top-tier of DC's ranks where he belongs again. But no, we don't get that; we get big-name creators on big-name characters who were going to sell well anyway and the publishers let the smaller characters and new characters pass by with little to no advertising unless they're lucky enough to have some connection to a bigger character, like X-23 or whatever.

Readers not taking risks is absolutely a problem, I agree with that; I just don't think all the blame for great series' failures can be laid entirely at their feet. The publishers bear a lot of the responsibility for not doing everything they could to promote the title as well as their big sellers.

 

[BrianWilly]

But does the average, non-forum-visiting reader really care about whose name is on the cover of a Spider-Man or Superman series? I think those people are going to buy the Avengers titles and the Batman titles regardless. I mean who actually knows who Geoff Johns is or care how "established" he is other than the internet and as I think we've established by now, the internet is a surprising minority as far as buying goes.

The reason I ask is that I really, honestly don't think DC handled Blue Beetle wrong at all. They started it off with a relatively known writer, gave it its props, and is still promoting and crossing it over with other titles right this moment as we speak. And it still sank like Freddie Prinze Jr. I mean, when people simply refuse to read something upon threat of death, what exactly is the magic solution here? Should DC have just shoved it down people's throats?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yes. With wooden poles, if it won't go down easily.

 

[cerealkiller182]

But does the average, non-forum-visiting reader really care about whose name is on the cover of a Spider-Man or Superman series? I think those people are going to buy the Avengers titles and the Batman titles regardless. I mean who actually knows who Geoff Johns is or care how "established" he is other than the internet and as I think we've established by now, the internet is a surprising minority as far as buying goes.

The reason I ask is that I really, honestly don't think DC handled Blue Beetle wrong at all. They started it off with a relatively known writer, gave it its props, and is still promoting and crossing it over with other titles right this moment as we speak. And it still sank like Freddie Prinze Jr. I mean, when people simply refuse to read something upon threat of death, what exactly is the magic solution here? Should DC have just shoved it down people's throats?

Its not a perfect system. I think Aristotle, Corp, and yourself have all made good points, but nothing is 100%. I think things can be handled better and fans can be more receptive but you'll never completely ensure that a comic title will take off.

 

[Aristotle]

Yes, publishers share blame. Fans also share blame. BW, you're also correct that the internet isn't everybody, but there are a lot of other fan publications out there, and I'd be very surprised if "average comic buyers" don't know the big names by now. It might take them longer, but they know who they like and they know who they see on the covers of a lot of blockbuster books. Remember, there aren't that many "casual superhero buyers" anymore. We're all hardcore nuts now.

And for the record, I think DC handled Blue Beetle as well as it could possibly be handled, and in that instance, the failure of the book was 100% on the heads of readers who failed to pick up one of the best superhero books of the last 20 years. They had every indication that it was good. Almost everyone who read it recommended it. Almost every critic recommended it. Jaime made guest appearances linewide. There was nothing else they could have done, and when I talk about what's wrong with comic book buyers, that's what I'm talking about. Yes, for every Blue Beetle there's a Teen Titans "new direction!," but that doesn't make it any easier to stomach what comic book fans have done to Blue Beetle and Manhunter.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's why I've resigned myself to simply viewing every series outside of the publishers' core books as temporary. I'll enjoy them while they last, but I'm not gonna hold out hope that they'll be around for long and I'm not gonna shed any tears over their inevitable cancellations.

 

[fifthfiend]

And for the record, I think DC handled Blue Beetle as well as it could possibly be handled, and in that instance, the failure of the book was 100% on the heads of readers who failed to pick up one of the best superhero books of the last 20 years. They had every indication that it was good. Almost everyone who read it recommended it. Almost every critic recommended it. Jaime made guest appearances linewide. There was nothing else they could have done, and when I talk about what's wrong with comic book buyers, that's what I'm talking about. Yes, for every Blue Beetle there's a Teen Titans "new direction!," but that doesn't make it any easier to stomach what comic book fans have done to Blue Beetle and Manhunter.

Or:

Wow. It's almost as if basing your entire business model around a series of must-buy big event crossovers in a market with limited purchasing resources hurts your midlist.

(On a completely tangental note since I haven't figured where else to mention it, Rogers has Mark Waid doing a weekly thing on Wednesdays which thus far is, well, Mark Waid writing words about things.)

 

[CaptainCanada]

I would argue that people are placing a bit too much hope on the idea that bringing in more readers would lead to better sales for books like Manhunter and Blue Beetle; TV, film, and literature are awash with gems that don't sell well (relative to whatever the standard is).

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Or:



(On a completely tangental note since I haven't figured where else to mention it, Rogers has Mark Waid doing a weekly thing on Wednesdays which thus far is, well, Mark Waid writing words about things.)

Haha, that Aquaman/GL scene was great. Was that actually published in anything?

 

[BrianWilly]

Wasn't that in Year One? Or am I still too enraged from Avatar casting to think clearly?

Yes, please, ask me about it.

 

[Flash Facts]

Interesting discussion you guys are having.

I would like to bring up another aspect to add to your discussion, I large part of why these books don't sell may be because print is a dying form of media.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Possibly, but we're talking about titles that aren't selling well even compared to other dying printed comics.

 

[Flash Facts]

Yes, well that is my point. If the medium itself is dying how could new titles gain new readers. There can only be so much people that still use print media and with those numbers dwindling the chances of anything new gaining an audience reduces more and more.

 

[The Eagle Host]

Superman/Batman is, in every way, the best DC book on the stands right now.

 

[Aristotle]

Interesting discussion you guys are having.

I would like to bring up another aspect to add to your discussion, I large part of why these books don't sell may be because print is a dying form of media.

You don't seem too broken up about the loss of one of the most valuable pieces of human civilization. I don't mean to get in the way of your internetz-is-teh-revolution party, but try to have a bit of a longer historical view before you celebrate the destruction of paper trails, physical evidence of a civilization, literacy, and the human legacy.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Kind of an overreaction there, don't you think? Flash Facts was just living up to his name and stating a fact, not celebrating anything. An unfortunate fact and maybe a bit exaggerated in the phrasing, but print media is selling less across the board. Newspapers are hurting almost as much as comics and books will probably be on their way within another generation or two. I agree with you that it's a travesty, but it's hardly FF's fault simply for noticing it.

 

[CConn]

While that's a very large blanket statement that I don't entirely agere with, the losers are still the risk-takers either way. Either you risk trying a new comic and it turns out to be s***, which happens like 75% of the time at Marvel and DC (this is Teen Titans since OYL); or you try a new comic, get emotionally invested in the characters, and then it's canceled because no one was willing to take the risk with you (Blue Beetle, Manhunter, Amazing Spider-Girl, the list goes on and on and on and on); or you try a new comic, get emotionally invested in the characters, it actually sells pretty well, and then it's canceled because of some overzealous editor or writer's "vision for the future" that, for whatever reason, that character can't be a part of (alas, poor Batgirl...). That's the kind of thing that breaks a comic fan. I've considered quitting comics altogether because every single really good series with novel, interesting characters seems to get lost in the shuffle, so why bother getting invested in any of them in the first place?

I would kinda say it's just a matter of nothing good lasts for ever. In any medium it's extremely hard to maintain a high level of quality for an extended period of time (or works). I mean, sure we've had the rare gems - long runs that stayed continuously good over 20, 30, 40+ issues - but on the whole, it's just kinda a fact of creating that you can write or draw or make something great, but, eventually the quality is going to start slipping. Especially when you have multiple creators and editors and producers involved in the process.

The way I kinda look at it as, is good runs happen in 6-12 issue spans now. Blue Beetle was great, and I'm glad it's quality never dropped down, but I also realize, it has to (unfortunately) end. Mark Waid's Brave and the Bold was great, but he moved on, and (IMO, at least), the quality dropped significantly. It happens. That's the way movies work, that's the way TV shows work, that's the way comics work. Maybe it is possible to have extremely long runs that are great, but it's just not possible currently given - as you so excellently pointed out - all of the various external forces.

So yeah, if it bugs you that much, quit comics. Quit movies, quit TV shows, quit books. Or you could just enjoy the good times and the good arcs, and accept that there's going to be some bad you're going to have to read or skip or ignore all together.

 

[Kenda Man]

p.s. mon-el is getting out of the phantom zone?

Yeah, in Legion of 3 Worlds, phantom girl and Shadow lass saved him from the phantom zone.

Ohh and in the latest Wizard, Dido said Mon-el and the Legion will appear in Adventure Comics in March. I'm dying to see what Legion members will still be left standing after the Legion of 3 Worlds mini is over.

 

[Flash Facts]

Kind of an overreaction there, don't you think? Flash Facts was just living up to his name and stating a fact, not celebrating anything. An unfortunate fact and maybe a bit exaggerated in the phrasing, but print media is selling less across the board. Newspapers are hurting almost as much as comics and books will probably be on their way within another generation or two. I agree with you that it's a travesty, but it's hardly FF's fault simply for noticing it.

Exactly. I was only stating a fact and did not give my opinion on it, which for the record I think it kinda sucks. My family loves to read and we probably have I a couple of hundred if not thousand books. Every room in my house has a few books or magazines in them. On the other hand having everything exist on my HDD does clear up alot space in my home and makes it musch easier to find and read what I want.

Print is definitely dying. Magazines, newspapers, and books sales are dropping and alot of publications are trying to move to internet as the only form of delivery. People just don't want to bother with print much anymore.

The Mark Waid interview in Corps sig even discusses how he thinks digital distribution is the future of comics.

 

[hippie_hunter]

With Final Crisis getting Grant Morrison, Greg Rucka, Geoff Johns, and Brad Meltzer involved; Superman's New Krypton having Geoff Johns and James Robinson involved; Green Lantern's Blackest Night having Geoff Johns and probably Tomasi, and Flash: Rebirth having Geoff Johns, it just downright baffles me that DC stuffs Batman's Battle for the Cowl with so many untested, no name writers.

I understand Tony Daniel since he's the artist for the main Batman book and I like that he's going to be using so many characters like Batwoman and Batgirl.

And Fabian Nicieza as well since he's the writer for Robin.

But who the hell are Royal McGraw and Kevin VanHook? Why the hell is Grant Morrison not writing anything here? Or Paul Dini? And why the hell is Gail Simone NOT writing the Oracle miniseries?

 

[yenaled]

Well they are obviously not meant to be the most important books for the ongoing story and just a series of "fill gaps in the story" books till the main stuff comes.

And Royal McGraw has been writing Detective fill-ins for Paul Dini.

Little fill ins and miniseries are perfect ways to test new writers (they will have story editorial support and probably support from other writers) they have to let people into the industry somehow.

 

[Aristotle]

Here's an outside possibility: Battle for the Cowl is so underdone because Bruce Wayne is just coming back to the mantle of the bat anyway?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

You think so? I figured they'd at least give someone new six months or a year in the cowl. I mean, yeah, obviously Bruce is coming back eventually, but I figured he'd actually leave first.