DC Relaunching Everything? - Part 9

[Hush]

Cause that's a logical solution.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Um, if you piss off one of the best writers in the industry for no good reason, you're an incompetent editor, Chief.

You can piss off great writers while still being a good editor. Shooter pissed everyone off but he did a great job at Marvel he pushed away major talent like John Byrne, Marv Wolfman, Gene Colan, and Steve Gerber. But he also brought in some massive successes like ensuring that things were released on time while still putting out high quality products and strict editorial control that allowed for tight continuity. He even gave royalties to creators. Being a jackass can easily be separated from incompetence.

You can be both though, DiDio has a reputation of being a dick (going up and down the DC offices saying that 52 sucks while the writers were right there) and has been reported of being incompetent (rumored to be constantly changing his mind).

And when Brubaker and Rucka left, it wasn't because of incompetent editors. Brubaker was under Bob Schreck's editorial oversight and he's regarded as an excellent editor. He left simply because DC was not giving him high profile assignments, he was stuck on the lower tier Batman books like Gotham Central and Catwoman and occasionally writing the main Batman book. He was promoted as a AAA writer, but was never treated as such. And I think he felt slighted when DC didn't even bother to ask him to help them with Infinite Crisis, getting Judd Winick to co-write Countdown to Infinite Crisis with Geoff Johns and Greg Rucka.

Rucka came out saying that he didn't leave because of anything on DC's part. He left on good terms, he just wanted to do other things because he was at DC for such a long time and didn't want to go stale.

 

[Saint]

Man, Brubaker on Batman was completely boss.

 

[RoughNTumble]

Cause that's a logical solution.

silence

*crosses legs*

 

[lixdexia]

Man, Brubaker on Batman was completely boss.

sigh...

i miss that time. when i enjoyed reading batman books.

 

[Mystirious]

Are you not enjoying Inc, Dark Knight, Batman and Batman & Robin Lix

Except he wasn't fired. He left for the same reasons that Paul Cornell left Stormwatch, John Rozum left Static Shock, and Gail Simone left Firestorm: awful editorial.

I didn't know Cornell left Stormwatch because of awful editors what was his problem with editorial on that book

 

[X Knight]

soo......any more word on Raven?

 

[Dangerman]

You know the sad thing about this Superman/Wonder Woman hook up is that it is more anticipated than Marvel Now.

 

[Zionite1]

You know the sad thing about this Superman/Wonder Woman hook up is that it is more anticipated than Marvel Now.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Now that I've pretty much read almost all of the comics that I planned on getting for August, I think it's time to give a proper ranking to the New 52 now that it's 12 issues in:

1. Aquaman - Now while this doesn't top the Pfeifer run on Aquaman for me, Johns' run on Aquaman is still pretty up there. The writing is top notch by taking advantage of the fact that most people see Aquaman is lame and Johns does what he can to prove him wrong. And this book has legitimized Aquaman to a lot of people now, and for that, I'm eternally grateful. But the real star of this book has to be Ivan Reis' art. Absolutely gorgeous.

2. Batman - Scott Snyder's promotion to the main Batman book has been nothing short of absolute brilliance. Snyder has positioned himself to become one of the greats of Batman writers on par with Frank Miller, Denny O'Neil, and Bill Finger.

3. Animal Man - This was an unexpected gem for me. Jeff Lemire's Animal Man has been so great that it has made me want to go back and check out the older material.

4. Swamp Thing - The New 52 has really put Scott Snyder into DC's stable of AAA writers. The Dark line really has put out some of the best books of the New 52.

5. I, Vampire - I love this book. Love it, love it, love it. It's so great to see a portrayal of vampires that isn't all wussified to deal with the Twilight craze.

6. Action Comics - Grant Morrison's direction of taking Superman back to his psuedo-socialistic roots have given the character some much needed direction and relevance. So much more interesting than the conservative fighter of the status quo that while a few writers get oh-so-right like Joe Kelly and Geoff Johns, but most get wrong.

7. Green Lantern - Hey, don't fix what ain't broken.

8. the Flash - Francis Manapul's take on the Flash is such an enjoyable read and the art is absolutely stunning to look at and enhances the story.

9. Wonder Woman - This book is awesome, eff the haters of this book.

10. Frankenstein, Agent of S.H.A.D.E. - Another Dark book, and it's great. I can't wait to see Frank in Justice League Dark.

11. Demon Knights - Again, another awesome Dark book.

12. O.M.A.C. - Oh my poor beloved O.M.A.C.

13. Batwoman - Not as great as Greg Rucka's run on Detective Comics, but still pretty damn good. Sorry this isn't any higher Mysti, but it feels like this book somewhat drags without J.H. Williams' art.

14. Justice League - This book gets a lot of undeserved crap. Think of it as more of a Michael Bay/Jerry Bruckheimer comic packed with more flash and entertainment than substance, but it's still a good read.

15. Batman and Robin - This book started off so great, but it's kinda starting to drag a bit, thus giving it a much lower ranking than it initially would have. I have a feeling that this book might end up getting lower on the list.

16. Justice League Dark - A book that would have been dropped if not for Jeff Lemire hoping on board and saving it. Will probably end up ranking much higher soon in the near future.

18. Green Lantern: New Guardians - Great interaction between the members of the various Corps. I'm gonna miss Glommy

19. Green Lantern Corps - Liking the build up to what is coming up with the Green Lantern line, but I feel like that this is all this book is meant for.

20. Resurrection Man - This book's pretty cool, but I'm glad it's ending.

21. Birds of Prey - Good book, but I feel like it's lacking something in it.

22. Nightwing - It's good, but like many of the side Bat-titles, this feels like it's starting to drag.

23. Batgirl - Great start, but like Nightwing, starting to drag a bit.

24. Legion of Super-Heroes - Liked the previous incarnation of this book better.

25. Legion Lost - Started off terribly, but Tom DeFalco is starting to save the book a bit now that he isn't tied to that Culling crap.

26. Superman - Wow, this book just has absolutely no purpose to it whatsoever. And it's a shame because it could be good if it weren't for the fact that Action Comics is hindering it.

27. Justice League International - Now this book is a god damn shame. It started off as one of my favorite books but continually dropped down in quality hard.

28. Detective Comics - Sorry Tony Daniel, you delivered your A-game, but it just isn't good enough.

29. Blue Beetle - Why reboot something that absolutely had no need of rebooting?

30. the Savage Hawkman - Believe it or not, this book actually got better under Rob Liefeld.

31. Green Arrow - This character got seriously screwed by the reboot.

32. Stormwatch - Another book in the same position as Justice League International, great start but got awful real fast.

33. the Fury of Firestorm: The Nuclear Men - Snooze fest, hopefully Jurgens can save this book.

34. Teen Titans - **** this book. **** it hard. I hate it! God this book drives me insane! ARRRRRGH!

 

[RoughNTumble]

batgirl and animal man are the same thing over and over tbqh

my fave five

1. action comics
2. batman inc.
3. wunder woman
4. flash
5. green lantern
6. i, vampire
7. batwoman
8. demon knights

That's all I really care about/buy

I still read half their books though

will be getting layman's detective and nocenti's catwoman too

 

[CConn]

Top 10:

1. Wonder Woman
2. Batman Incorporated
3. Action Comics
4. Green Lantern
5. The Flash
6. Batman and Robin
7. Batman
8. OMAC/Earth 2 (since one's cancelled, and the other is just starting)
9. Batwoman
10. Batman: The Dark Knight (only this low because it's only been good for 3 issues)

Everything else really isn't worth reading.

 

[Cain]

If it's not in my sig then it's no longer worth my time and R.I.P. to Voodoo and Resurrection Man.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I'll jump on the bandwagon. I'll rank the titles I buy and have bought for signifigant runs but dropped.


1) Batman - Snyder's run has been fantastic from the beginning. I was iffy on the art at first but it grew on me and overall I loved the Court of Owls storyline. Now I'm excited for the Joker!

2) Green Lantern - Sinistro being a focus character has really given this book a new feel to it and it just keeps getting better. Doug Menke (spelling?) has been drawing the book for a couple years now (since Blackest Night) and I've really grown to enjoy his look. John's is still focusing on the other corps' but not so much that it's offputting. I'm still a fan of Johns' run.

3) Justice League Dark - The best thing about this title has consistently been the art. Janin (I think his name is) has got to be one of the best I've seen in a very long time. Milligan's run was good but started slowly. The title took a nosedive for the I, Vampire crossover, and then it skyrocketed once Lemire came on and it just gets better every issue. I like that Lemire and Milligan have made the title dark for the line but isn't overdoing it. I'm a PG-13 type of person and this is still acceptable for me. This title honestly just barely reached 3rd place but I think it's going to be solid by this time next year.

4) Nightwing - Nightwing's title started great and was consistent through the Night of Owls crossover. The recent arc dropped in quality by a huge amount, dropping this one from 3rd to 4th, but it was only one arc and I'm hoping it picks up again. The writer's doing a fantastic job and I LOVE the art. I became a fan of Dick Grayson during his run as Batman and I'm glad to see my enjoyment of the character continues into his old Nightwing gimmick.

5) Batman & Robin - This title started a bit slowly and then skyrocketed toward the end of the Nobody arc to one of my favorite books. Sadly, from that point it's only fallen. It was a solid #3, maybe even #2, but the past four or five issues have killed it and it's fallen hard. I'm hoping it gets better but we'll see.

6) Swamp Thing - It's funny that a title I dropped a few issues ago would rank above three titles that I still currently buy. Truth is, this is a fantastic comic with amazing art. I dropped it only because it was a tad too dark for my tastes, which took away from it in my eyes... but I can't deny the quality of the title. I can see how good the title is and how enjoyable it is and if not for my "squeemish" tastes it'd likely be way up their close to #1. But alas, dark and dungy is not my thing. I'm glad it's doing well though. I hope it continues to do so and only gets better.

7) Grifter - I really loved this book when the original writer was on it. I was sucked into every issue, loved the art, and was just really impressed with it and wanted to see where it went. Then Liefield and Terri took over and I felt that it just diminished a great deal to the point of my dropping it. Cole himself was an interesting character and I felt the new writers lost that in favor of his masked personality. I still miss this book to be honest but every time I flip through a new issue it still feels lacking. It's still above the next three titles (which I still buy) due to how much I loved the first 8 issues or so. It's a shame that that's where the enjoyment just fully stopped.

8) Batwoman - This book started off very well and was likely in my top 5, but then the second arc hit and it fell to near dropping range for me. I stuck with it to see if it was just a bad arc but that arc dragged on and on and I actually skipped an issue or two and eventually went back and got them. The newest issue post arc-2 was good though and I'm think it might have just been a lull. Still, it isn't one of my top books and could still be dropped in time. I agree with some that say it lacks in quality once Williams III isn't doing the art. But it's good enough to hold onto for now.

9) Justice League - Like some have said, this book is all bang with little substance. It's a fun, action flick, and I do enjoy that, and i like seeing all the characters together, but it's starting to get a little old at this point. What keeps me buying is that I'm liking the Shazam backup stories, I like what Johns says is coming up, and I'm real curious about the Trinity War thingy coming, so I'm sticking with it for now. I might eventually drop the book but it's safe until Trinity War at least.

10) Batman Inc. - This title is low because it's new and I'm just starting to wrap my head around its premise again. It didn't really grab me until this newest issue (#3) and it's likely that the book will shoot up this list by this time next year but for now its still low-ranking. Honestly, I dont' see myself continuing with the book once Morrison leaves after issue 12 (I think it was). I buy enough Batbooks as it is.

11) Red Hood & the Outlaws - I bought about 8 or 9 issues of this title and while I liked it it just had no real umph. I was just reading it and by the next issue I'd forget what had all come before it. I like Jason but Starfire did nothing for me and I wasn't a fan of Roy's new persona. If the book focused souly on Jason I'd have likely been more interested. I just feel the other two took away from it. Ultimately, I dropped it and haven't missed it since.

12) Batman: the Dark Knight - This book reminded me a lot of Justice League in that it's a big movie flick with little substance, but worse. I stayed with the title until there was only one issue left of the original arc, just prior to Hurwits or whatever his name is took over, but I had had enough by that time. I hear it's picked up since then, and I'm glad, but I'm done. I do miss Finch's art though. I wish he'd be on a title I enjoy more.


In addition to those above I had also tried Omac, Green Lantern: New Guardians, Animal Man, Dial H, Superman, and Earth-2 but I only got two issues or so into those and don't feel it'd be a fair review for them. Most were decent, nothing bad, but they just didn't wow me enough to keep going.

 

[Micromind]

I'll jump on the bandwagon. I'll rank the titles I buy and have bought for signifigant runs but dropped.


1) Batman - Snyder's run has been fantastic from the beginning. I was iffy on the art at first but it grew on me and overall I loved the Court of Owls storyline. Now I'm excited for the Joker!

2) Green Lantern - Sinistro being a focus character has really given this book a new feel to it and it just keeps getting better. Doug Menke (spelling?) has been drawing the book for a couple years now (since Blackest Night) and I've really grown to enjoy his look. John's is still focusing on the other corps' but not so much that it's offputting. I'm still a fan of Johns' run.

3) Justice League Dark - The best thing about this title has consistently been the art. Janin (I think his name is) has got to be one of the best I've seen in a very long time. Milligan's run was good but started slowly. The title took a nosedive for the I, Vampire crossover, and then it skyrocketed once Lemire came on and it just gets better every issue. I like that Lemire and Milligan have made the title dark for the line but isn't overdoing it. I'm a PG-13 type of person and this is still acceptable for me. This title honestly just barely reached 3rd place but I think it's going to be solid by this time next year.

4) Nightwing - Nightwing's title started great and was consistent through the Night of Owls crossover. The recent arc dropped in quality by a huge amount, dropping this one from 3rd to 4th, but it was only one arc and I'm hoping it picks up again. The writer's doing a fantastic job and I LOVE the art. I became a fan of Dick Grayson during his run as Batman and I'm glad to see my enjoyment of the character continues into his old Nightwing gimmick.

5) Batman & Robin - This title started a bit slowly and then skyrocketed toward the end of the Nobody arc to one of my favorite books. Sadly, from that point it's only fallen. It was a solid #3, maybe even #2, but the past four or five issues have killed it and it's fallen hard. I'm hoping it gets better but we'll see.

6) Swamp Thing - It's funny that a title I dropped a few issues ago would rank above three titles that I still currently buy. Truth is, this is a fantastic comic with amazing art. I dropped it only because it was a tad too dark for my tastes, which took away from it in my eyes... but I can't deny the quality of the title. I can see how good the title is and how enjoyable it is and if not for my "squeemish" tastes it'd likely be way up their close to #1. But alas, dark and dungy is not my thing. I'm glad it's doing well though. I hope it continues to do so and only gets better.

7) Batwoman - This book started off very well and was likely in my top 5, but then the second arc hit and it fell to near dropping range for me. I stuck with it to see if it was just a bad arc but that arc dragged on and on and I actually skipped an issue or two and eventually went back and got them. The newest issue post arc-2 was good though and I'm think it might have just been a lull. Still, it isn't one of my top books and could still be dropped in time. I agree with some that say it lacks in quality once Williams III isn't doing the art. But it's good enough to hold onto for now.

8) Grifter - I really loved this book when the original writer was on it. I was sucked into every issue, loved the art, and was just really impressed with it and wanted to see where it went. Then Liefield and Terri took over and I felt that it just diminished a great deal to the point of my dropping it. Cole himself was an interesting character and I felt the new writers lost that in favor of his masked personality. I still miss this book to be honest but every time I flip through a new issue it still feels lacking.

9) Justice League - Like some have said, this book us all bang with little substance. It's a fun, action flick, and I do enjoy that, and i like seeing all the characters together, but it's starting to get a little old at this point. What keeps me buying is that I'm liking the Shazam backup stories, I like what Johns says is coming up, and I'm real curious about the Trinity War thingy coming, so I'm sticking with it for now. I might eventually drop the book but it's safe until Trinity War at least.

10) Batman Inc. - This title is low because it's new and I'm just starting to wrap my head around its premise again. It didn't really grab me until this newest issue (#3) and it's likely that the book will shoot up this list by this time next year but for now its still low-ranking. Honestly, I dont' see myself continuing with the book once Morrison leaves after issue 12 (I think it was). I buy enough Batbooks as it is.

11) Red Hood & the Outlaws - I bought about 8 or 9 issues of this title and while I liked it it just had no real umph. I was just reading it and by the next issue I'd forget what had all come before it. I like Jason but Starfire did nothing for me and I wasn't a fan of Roy's new persona. If the book focused souly on Jason I'd have likely been more interested. I just feel the other two took away from it. Ultimately, I dropped it and haven't missed it since.

12) Batman: the Dark Knight - This book reminded me a lot of Justice League in that it's a big movie flick with little substance, but worse. I stayed with the title until there was only one issue left of the original arc, just prior to Hurwits or whatever his name is took over, but I had had enough by that time. I hear it's picked up since then, and I'm glad, but I'm done. I do miss Finch's art though. I wish he'd be on a title I enjoy more.


In addition to those above I had also tried Omac, Green Lantern: New Guardians, Animal Man, Dial H, Superman, and maybe one or two more but I only got two issues or so into those and don't feel it'd be a fair review for them. Most were decent, nothing bad, but they just didn't wow me enough to keep going.

What do you think about Aquaman, Demon Knights, Voodoo and Jonah Hex ?

The most disappointing titles in the new 52 are Teen titans and Wonder Woman.

For WW I just don't care about the story arc, though art work is good.

 

[Micromind]

Also, any thoughts on the Digital comics ?

Batman beyond, JL beyond and Superman Beyond are solid. I haven't read Smallville.

 

[HighFivingMF]

So Liefeld is *****ing about Scott Snyder on Twitter. He keeps going on about how anyone can write Batman and have it sell well. Snyder replied:

Aw, I'll give you credit Rob! Batman might sell inspite of me and @GregCapullo as u say, but deathstroke & Hawkman failed because of you!

And you can put that in your pouch and keep it for later

 

[JewishHobbit]

What do you think about Aquaman, Demon Knights, Voodoo and Jonah Hex ?

The most disappointing titles in the new 52 are Teen titans and Wonder Woman.

For WW I just don't care about the story arc, though art work is good.

Also, any thoughts on the Digital comics ?

Batman beyond, JL beyond and Superman Beyond are solid. I haven't read Smallville.

I've not tried any of those. My budget is limited so I can't try everything and I had little to no interest in any of the titles listed. I considered picking up Demon Knights and Wonder Woman when they first started but ended up passing and just never bothered jumping in on them. The rest I never cared to try.

And I don't do digital comics. I like the comics to be in my hand.

 

[Cain]

So Liefeld is *****ing about Scott Snyder on Twitter. He keeps going on about how anyone can write Batman and have it sell well. Snyder replied:

I'm dying of laughter at Liefeld's antics today, seriously can't breathe anymore.

Did you see the screen grabs of his twitter PM convo with Snyder?

"Gold Jerry, Gold!"

If you ask me they're both coming across as deluded and self important.

 

[Micromind]

No wonder that Liefeld was shown the door.

And his comments are not doing him any favor either.

Snyder is also looking like someone who has ego problem.

 

[HighFivingMF]

But Snyder's making fun of Liefeld. So it's OK.

 

[Cain]

No wonder that Liefeld was shown the door.

And his comments are not doing him any favor either.

Snyder is also looking like someone who has ego problem.

He wasn't shown the door he walked out but yeah nevertheless he's pretty damn manic. I agree on your Snyder comment too. Like Batman being the flagship book of the line alone doesn't sell titles; I doubt Tony Daniel's bat books pre-New 52 were selling cause of quality and it's not like most comic readers even knew who Snyder was before his Batman run.

Hell look at all the people you see here and in other forums who still never even heard of or read The Black Mirror which is Bat related let alone American Vampire and it's not like his Swamp Thing is setting all types of sales records or something cause Scott Snyder is writing it. It's a decent seller at best.

 

[Lord Fanny]

I'm not sure if that's true or not. American Vampire actually sold considerably well for an indie/Vertigo book, and it got a lot of attention for Stephen King's attachment, therefore kind of putting an early spotlight on Snyder, definitely not a coincidence he went straight to the big leagues. And I thought The Black Mirror sold pretty well, too? It was a Detective Comics arc, right? It didn't sell like Morrison's stuff, but DC still sold pretty well.

But yeah, overall, I agree, it is sort of self-important for him to say it's selling well because of him and the artist. But then again, it seems to be pretty popular and is even outselling some other really big names, including Morrison's Batman, Inc. Guess the swell comes with the territory.

 

[Cain]

'tec was in the top 45 consistently when he was writing it but not in the top 15 consistently like it's been today. Aside from Inc, TDK was the best selling batbook pre-New 52 and that's cause Finch has a very faithful and large following like Morrison does.

Daniel's book was the best seller when it came to the "new" writers back then and it's mostly cause it was the flagship title and not cause Daniel was on it. You're right though I don't think anybody is beyond going on ego trips once they see themselves getting hyped up all over the web and the sales chart is reflecting that. Not everybody could be a Warren Ellis with the humility.

 

[Lord Fanny]

Ah, I see, I thought Detective sold a little better than that. I don't know, I still think Snyder had built up a decent rep even before pre-New 52 Batman.