Arrow Dinah Laurel Lance/Katie Cassidy Thread - Part 3

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A perfect summation of Laurel's arc on the show and why her death matters, written by someone who is an unapologetic Olicity shipper:
http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/142408071103/when-its-all-over-1159-arrow-4x18-review

And before people start ranting, the point I'm trying to make is that if an Olicity shipper can see the virtue in Laurel and her journey, those of us who actually like the character ought to be able to do likewise.
 
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Wonder how she feels knowing so many people are dropping the show because she's leaving? I mean how she really feels and not some CW sponsored PR damage control.
 
Wonder how she feels knowing so many people are dropping the show because she's leaving? I mean how she really feels and not some CW sponsored PR damage control.

People are saying they are dropping the show. Saying and doing isn't the same thing though.

But I do hope that Arrow's ratings significantly drop next season. The writing deserves it and the original fans deserve a better show.
 
People are saying they are dropping the show. Saying and doing isn't the same thing though.

But I do hope that Arrow's ratings significantly drop next season. The writing deserves it and the original fans deserve a better show.
I agree with all of this.
 
I maybe on these forums still, but I haven't watched Arrow for just over a month because of the direction they've been going in. I like to think I was ahead of the curve LOL. But I do expect a decline in ratings. How big is the question. Hopefully it's enough that this show gets canceled and WB has more freedom with the Green Arrow and Black Canary IPs moving forward. Whether it be direct to video movies that are part of the current DCAU or the Snyderverse anything is better than the character assassination that Guggenheim is responsible for.
 
I maybe on these forums still, but I haven't watched Arrow for just over a month because of the direction they've been going in. I like to think I was ahead of the curve LOL. But I do expect a decline in ratings. How big is the question. Hopefully it's enough that this show gets canceled and WB has more freedom with the Green Arrow and Black Canary IPs moving forward. Whether it be direct to video movies that are part of the current DCAU or the Snyderverse anything is better than the character assassination that Guggenheim is responsible for.

I agree with a lot of this, but I do not want the show to get cancelled. I would like it if the ratings dropped enough so that the writers would either be replaced, or forced to step up their game, try new things and give more characters time on the show, rather than mostly focusing on Felicity. Even with Arrow on the air, I am pretty sure that they can still feature its characters in animated films.
 
Saying you want the show to be cancelled is just petty and mean-spirited, regardless of how you feel about the decision to kill off Laurel.
 
Saying you want the show to be cancelled is just petty and mean-spirited, regardless of how you feel about the decision to kill off Laurel.

Not really.

No-one dislikes you or the current fans of the show, and I certainly wouldn't want the Olicity fans to cry.

But the writers have fundamentally changed the show and that's not really fair to the original fans who watched through two and a half seasons to have the show completely hijacked by a vocal minority who pushed through crazy things such as:

Felicity saves the day in a super suit
Felicity bores cupid to surrender
Felicity beats a bee construct with a lamp
Felicity whines at Oliver for keeping a really important promise to the mother of his child
Felicity goes to the mall
Olicity gets shipped by a dying Black Canary
etc etc..

It's not the same show anymore, and a drop in ratings/cancellation would send the message to other writers that this neglect of ALL fans isn't something that should be accepted.
 
Saying you want the show to be cancelled is just petty and mean-spirited, regardless of how you feel about the decision to kill off Laurel.

Not if they're destroying the characters. And Guggenheim has not be 'civil' to fans so he deserves the same measure of respect. And killing off Black Canary for a second time is more like the last straw that broke the camel's back.
 
If only they had taken Super Felicity into the prison with them. I'm sure she would have single handedly defeated Merlyn, Diggle and Darhk and saved Laurel herself.
 
I'm sorry, but nobody's been "neglected" here.

It's a television series run by people who have by and large done a very good job so far with all of the characters, including Laurel, and rooting for them and the rest of the show's cast to be rendered jobless just because you're upset by Laurel's death just smacks of petulence, pettiness, and meanspiritedness.
 
This will not be canceled. Someone (I can't remember who) compared this to Supernatural and I agree with that. This will be renewed until like Season 30 or something. :funny: It's already a CW staple. Plus, I highly doubt there's going to be a ratings dip anyway. The people who like her is still a minority IMO. This is one of the very few places actually that has grown to appreciate her. Other than this and maybe some Tumblr sites here and there, the majority still ranges from indifference to annoyance to hatred for her character. In other places, people are actually rejoicing that she's dead and will no longer be a threat to their favorite ship. Personally, I don't get that because it's clear that MG is Olicity4eva. Laurel stopped being a threat to that ship a long time ago. So yeah, my point is the majority got what they want and the majority will be enough to keep this show for 100 or more seasons.
 
I don't want the show cancelled, Amell and the rest of cast don't deserve that, but I think they need to either replace Guggenheim and probably Mericle as well, or at least find a way to put their Olicity pandering on a leash. I don't even know that I'll finish the season at this point.
 
It's a television series run by people who have by and large done a very good job so far with all of the characters.

With all due respect, at this point you are coming off as a shameless Olicity shipper who sees no wrong in anything the show does. Characterisation, and in particular remaining faithful to source material has been one of the biggest flaws of the show since it's inception. For example:

Constantine Drakon: Henchman killed in the first episode.
The Count : Terribly casted, reduced to a drug dealer, recasted and reduced to a comedy bumbling villain.
Laurel pre-black canary : Not the best casting. Never written believably that she could become BC or made endearing to the viewers. Written so terribly in the second season she struggled to ever recover.
Merlyn : Incredible first season but strange and incomprehensible writing ever since.
Slade : Good couple of seasons but motivation was a silly love triangle. reduced to a terrible cameo in season 3.
Felicity : Well written as the nerdy sidekick who had a couple of scenes each episode. Now unrealistically defeating villains single handedly every other week and crying about what she deserves to appease shippers.
Moira Queen : Best actress on the show killed off.
Shado : Killed off with so much scope left for the character.
BC Laurel : Killed off just as she was winning over everyone after aforementioned terrible writing.
Damien Darhk : Great actor, interesting character. Overused so much that I really don't care to see him fight Oliver again for what... 25th time this season?

I can't really put the issues with R'as, LOA, China White, Oliver, Sara, Thea, Roy, Suicide Squad or Captain Lance into a single sentence.

Really outside of Tommy, the mayor in S2, Nyssa, Diggle and his wife, I can't think of many characters who have been handled well all throughout their run. It's the weakest part of the show.
 
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^ Where did you get the idea that Sara "wasn't supposed to be a Canary character"?.

From here:http://www.tvguide.com/news/arrow-ravager-summer-glau-spoilers-kreisberg-1080585/. And let me be clear; I'm not arguing that Sara was meant to be a character completely separate from Laurel's transformation into Black Canary in any way; rather that the decision to have Sara act as an exact and direct precursor to every single visual (and at times, story) trait of the Black Canary was a decision made later than the decision to bring Sara back. And I feel that part for the issue with Laurel's value to the overall fandom was that having a better written and more exciting Canary character concurrent to a botched version of the Demon In The Bottle for Laurel set up a clash between fans who immediately wanted to see Badass Canary on a permanent basis versus those who wanted to see a highly modified version of the character eventually become Black Canary.

Now, I think the real issue with both Lance sisters is just the overall writing post-Season 2; there was no way that killing Sara off was needed to make Laurel transition into the suit, and now that we've had both sisters die, there's a feeling the writing team is being driven more by shock deaths then organic storytelling.

In spite of her popularity, Sara never actually had her own character arc(s) prior to her inclusion on Legends of Tomorrow; she existed SOLELY as a "prototype" character to service Laurel's evolution into the Black Canary, just as Yao Fei and Shado served as "prototypes" to service Oliver's evolution into the Green Arrow.

And I say this as a fan of both sisters.

I kind of disagree with this, and I'd argue it again exposes the weakness the creative team had with handling Laurel before her Black Canary-dom; Sara's character arc was a more subtle and organic transition from her mirroring Season One Oliver, but as an assassin who was arguably even more comfortable with killing, to a woman trying to follow Oliver's lead as a hero, while arguably seeming better adjusted, and literally so scared of returning to the assassins that she was willing to poison herself and die!

...And then the writers pulled a 180 on her in the last episodes of the Season and had her go back to the LoA smiling all the while. Kind of like how Laurel vengeance crazy in season 3 then became suddenly the rational hero when they wanted her to.

To me, the rough outline of Laurel's storyline, and my interest in Arrow, goes like this:

Season One: a generic but mostly well done CW love story with Tommy suffering from a badly handled transition to Oliver-Laurel-Tommy love triangle that nonetheless tied into the season's arc very well, so was overall pretty good.

Season Two: strong start for Laurel, but veering off into an almost entirely unconnected subplot that went far too long and looked horrific in comparison to the best season of the show.

Season Three: starting off pretty bad with the unnecessary and badly handled fridging of her sister, and then Boom! Suddenly Laurel's storyline is actually pretty great in comparison to the show becoming just as tired and derivative as her Season Two story was.

...and here's where I stopped watching the show regularly. I've caught a few episodes, but the writings become to disappointing for me to watch it without cable.

And now she's dead in season four, in what definetly sounds like a rather pathetic exit compared to stuff that other characters (e.g., Oliver himself) have survived.
 
No, I dont want it cancelled either. but this needs to go back to being a superhero show. I don't think it is a coincidence that the highest rated ones are ones where somebody from Flash visits. Olicity has now officially gotten in the way of the actual show.
 
No, I dont want it cancelled either. but this needs to go back to being a superhero show. I don't think it is a coincidence that the highest rated ones are ones where somebody from Flash visits. Olicity has now officially gotten in the way of the actual show.

This is a serious problem for all CW shows; letting shippers write the story. I used to like Felicity, but her relationship with Oliver this season has been WORST part of the show, because of how it effects everything else.
 
With all due respect, at this point you are coming off as a shameless Olicity shipper who sees no wrong in anything the show does.

While I am a fan of Felicity and the Oliver/Felicity relationship, my assessment of the series and the way it has handled ALL of its characters has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with that fact.

Characterisation, and in particular remaining faithful to source material has been one of the biggest flaws of the show since it's inception. For example:

Constantine Drakon: Henchman killed in the first episode.
The Count : Terribly casted, reduced to a drug dealer, recasted and reduced to a comedy bumbling villain.
Laurel pre-black canary : Not the best casting. Never written believably that she could become BC or made endearing to the viewers. Written so terribly in the second season she struggled to ever recover.
Merlyn : Incredible first season but strange and incomprehensible writing ever since.
Slade : Good couple of seasons but motivation was a silly love triangle. reduced to a terrible cameo in season 3.
Felicity : Well written as the nerdy sidekick who had a couple of scenes each episode. Now unrealistically defeating villains single handedly every other week and crying about what she deserves to appease shippers.
Moira Queen : Best actress on the show killed off.
Shado : Killed off with so much scope left for the character.
BC Laurel : Killed off just as she was winning over everyone after aforementioned terrible writing.
Damien Darhk : Great actor, interesting character. Overused so much that I really don't care to see him fight Oliver again for what... 25th time this season?

I can't really put the issues with R'as, LOA, China White, Oliver, Sara, Thea, Roy, Suicide Squad or Captain Lance into a single sentence.

Really outside of Tommy, the mayor in S2, Nyssa, Diggle and his wife, I can't think of many characters who have been handled well all throughout their run. It's the weakest part of the show.

There's no such thing as "faithful to the source material" when you're dealing with adaptations. I'm sorry if you can't accept that, but it's not the show's - or the showrunners' - fault that you want(ed) something out of the series that you were never going to actually get.

I'm sorry if you're offended by the fact that I'm a Laurel fan who isn't in "torches and pitchforks" mode. I wish they would've picked a different character to kill off, but one decision I don't agree with isn't enough to cause me to change my mind about a series I've been with from Day 1 and have enjoyed from Day 1.
 
So Katie got to keep her jacket and mask, she should just start a youtube series or something. So glad I will be rid of this show by end of the month.
 
Lots of people are "disliking" the trailer for the next episode, Canary Cry, I assume in response to Laurel's death. If people keep stuff like this up on Youtube, Twitter, Facebook and Tumblr etc, and keep expressing their displeasure and discontent, in addition to things like ratings dropping, maybe they will bring her back, and do other things to improve the show (or maybe that is just wishful thinking on my part).

https://youtu.be/FNu_5W-wo8k
There was literally more views for the new Star Wars trailer in 15 mins, then those for this video. I don't think they can generate the kind of push to make anything happen.
 
There was literally more views for the new Star Wars trailer in 15 mins, then those for this video. I don't think they can generate the kind of push to make anything happen.


You don't make any sense. The SW fanbase had to be at least 100x the size of the Arrow fanbase before Guggenheim and Mericle got to work shrinking it. What matters is the % of the Arrow fanbase that says "Screw this ***!"

In this case if they are keeping stats on this what the CW would look at would be:

Is this trailer getting less views than the average Arrow trailer?
Is it getting more dislikes?

The views for the SWR1 trailer are totally irrelevant.
 
While I am a fan of Felicity and the Oliver/Felicity relationship, my assessment of the series and the way it has handled ALL of its characters has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with that fact.

There's no such thing as "faithful to the source material" when you're dealing with adaptations. I'm sorry if you can't accept that, but it's not the show's - or the showrunners' - fault that you want(ed) something out of the series that you were never going to actually get.

I'm sorry if you're offended by the fact that I'm a Laurel fan who isn't in "torches and pitchforks" mode. I wish they would've picked a different character to kill off, but one decision I don't agree with isn't enough to cause me to change my mind about a series I've been with from Day 1 and have enjoyed from Day 1.

Yes there is. If they do not like/respect the source material, then why write a show on it? Why not make a completely original series. Are you saying they are just using the Green Arrow franchise to fool comic book fans into watching a completely unrelated melodrama?

I'm not saying they have to stick to the storylines exactly as they are in the books, but what 'adaptions' do you know that are as far removed from the source material as Arrow? I think you'll struggle to find many adaptations where the main character is an IT girl who barely appeared in the original source material.

I'm not offended by you at all. I just think you're trolling at this point.
 
Yes there is. If they do not like/respect the source material, then why write a show on it?

Not making a word-for-word translation of the source material does not mean that these showrunners don't respect it.

What 'adaptions' do you know that are as far removed from the source material as Arrow?

Kiss Me Kate
West Side Story
10 Things I Hate About You
Man of Steel
Batman v Superman
Gotham
Battlestar Galactica (2004 series)
Once Upon a Time
Voltron: Defender of the Universe
Power Rangers
Robotech
Masters of the Universe (1987 film)
Smallville

I think you'll struggle to find many adaptations where the main character is an IT girl who barely appeared in the original source material.

If you seriously think Felicity Smoak is the main character of Arrow, you've succumbed to delusions.
 
So, after watching the episode I understand the hatred/negative feeling towards guggenheim. I'm not going to sit here and bash Olicity because realistically they have much better chemistry than Oliver and Laurel.

I am going to bash that they killed off Laurel when she finally had a REALLLLLLLY good episode and showed she could have been a really strong character and if they got away from the "romantic" nature of this show/cw, they really could have used her in much stronger ways.

Now, I don't know what happened behind the scenes, and how much that paid into it, but this was actually one of the better written episodes with a couple minor exceptions.

Am I upset they killed her off? Yes.

Is it against the comic book lore? Yes, but who really cares when so much of this show and flash etc have to take into their own hands the story it's a loose representation how loose is how you look at it. Their hands are tied huge to what characters they can and can't bring in, on top of that who knew what the actress wanted, theirs a lot of questions we don't know the answers too, and I'm actually just happy they gave her a good episode where she finally acted. Do I want to see more of her? Yes, I'd love for her to be on Legends of Tomorrow and Sara to come back to Arrow, I think that would be way more interesting than what they've done.
 
My thing is, they want to do what they want so then why do they want to bring in Harley or any other character? They probably wouldn't go to far off base when it comes to their characterization, and this is probably why DC keeps some of these characters at arms length.
 
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