Arrow Dinah Laurel Lance/Katie Cassidy Thread - Part 3

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None of them happened? She wasn't continually the damsel in distress in S1-2? Didn't constantly needing bailing out with the help of Oliver? She wasn't the least trained member of the group? She didn't die with being in love with Oliver who very rarely showed her the respect that she deserved?

This. I hated that he was only a good friend to her the episode that she died in. I hate that Cisco was the only guy in awe of her hotness. Diggle and Thea had respect for her and knew how valuable her Canary Cry was,but Oliver didn't. Even when it saved his life,he didn't give a :censored:. I can't wait to see how he reacts to Earth 2 Laurel. I hope it's a Laurel who either doesn't know him or doesn't have a good relationship with him. This is a woman who stood by him no matter how much he abused her emotionally and mentally. He picked every woman in the world but her,including her sister.

Even when they made her BC,she still needed bailing out. As much as I hate Felicity,she was nicer to Laurel than Oliver was. He grew up with her and it's like the minute he fell for Felicity,he forgot Laurel completely. He didn't forget Sara and it was her choice to leave,but he did treat Laurel differently.

It's a shame that she can't be on a show where she can be treated better. I don't see why they couldn't have just written her off. Why couldn't they have killed Diggle? I thought it was him because of Andy being a traitor. Wiggle would have been shocking and upsetting,but it wouldn't have taken a beloved comic character out of the equation.

I know a lot of Laurel fans say they wanted this so they could let go,but I never did. the only way I can be okay with this b.s. is if Earth 2 Laurel joins The Flash. That's never going to happen,though. Oh well-I'm behind on Daredevil,anyway.
 
I hope that Laurel from earth 2 is a meta human. probably would have saved her life if laurel was that . Would have broken team arrow out of that magical hold darhk so love to hold people in.
 
Laurel didnt even attempt to use her Canary Cry (how convenient).
 
Laurel didnt even attempt to use her Canary Cry (how convenient).

When? No one was expecting Damien Dark to stab her. Hell,Sara probably won't know how to resist coming after him when she finds out.

I want her to be a meta as well. In Birds of Prey she was a metahuman.
 
Laurel didnt even attempt to use her Canary Cry (how convenient).
yeah it was. they had her used it for bug eyed bandit but when she really should use it they make sure she doesn't why cause they were trying to get rid of her sadly . and other times it was always used in poor chose times beside the bug eyed bandit episode. too bad it's isn't sensor sensitive and she has to turn on her collar with her fingers and always ajust it.
 
It wasn't used in this situation. So even if she was a meta it wouldnt have done anything.
 
It wasn't used in this situation. So even if she was a meta it wouldnt have done anything.
yeah wasn't due to two factors cause it's a device she has to turn on at a certain moment with her hands prior at all times and it wasn't in the plot.
thus conviant


but if she were a meta seeing it's part of her nature like in speaking one scream would have done it to set her self and the rest of team arrow. and would have made a nice counter for that darth vader hold darhk loves so much . and he does that alot. the point is they really wanted to off her . so it more of aqcase of why they they really put the character in the show? same with Roy. that what makes this all weird . if the show runner never cared for them?

I guess the one's that did were Bartilanti ad Adrew kreisingberg. Guggenhaim on the other hand...
 
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According to whom? The show itself makes it pretty clear that both Laurel and Oliver are essentially on the same journey, but whereas Oliver had already gone through a significant part of his "crucible" prior to the start of the show, we got to see the entirety of Laurel's "crucible" first-hand... a crucible that included the return and second death of her sister as the catalyst for her becoming the character she was always intended to be.



Who is defining what constitutes respect for the character(s) as they've existed for 20 years?

I know this following argument adresses that question in very broad way, but I'm curious for your take on what I'm about to write:

To me, "respect" for source material in adapting characters is tied heavily into making sure that whatever you're adapting matches the potential of its basis in some way; if you have an adaptation of Arthurian mythology, for instance, don't show a Merlin who doesn't some how impress the audience on par with the older versions of the character. Even if you decide to subvert some aspects of his portrayal, you almost always have to enhance other aspects to make the adaptation worthy; thus, a significantly smaller and less massive Bane can have a good adaptation in TDKR if his intelligence, skill, and charisma is presented to compensate.

Now, I've thought for quite some time that there's really two different portrayals of Black Canary prevalent in the comics: Black Canary as a supporting character to Green Arrow (Let's call her Lady Bird), and Black Canary as an independent superhero and member of the Birds of Prey and Justice League (Let's call her The Chairman).

Lady Bird was the more popular version of the character during the 70's to early 90's; and it's no coincidence that Dinah had several more Damsel in Distress and victimization moments in that time-frame. But once Birds of Prey took off, a new generation of readers got introduced to a more no-nonsense, sparring-partner-with-Lady-Shiva Chairman who didn't need any rescues and arguably came off better than Oliver as both a crime fighter and as a personable individual (makes sense; Ollie was dead for a good portion of the 90's and 00's!)

And I think that's why some people will always have trouble taking Cassidy's Laurel as a well handled adaptation of their ideal version of the character; Cassidy was always going to be Lady Bird, a supporting cast character who was supposed to have her love life and bond with Ollie define her. Cassidy did a great job, but the failure to get her chemistry with Amell's Ollie right made for a handicapped Lady Bird character who at times emphasized the weakness of that character direction...

...While at the same time, here comes Sara, meant to be a strictly ancillary character for the show, but kind of turning into a pitch perfect version of the Chairman for the show; she's portrayed as Ollie's equal, a take charge vigilante capable of coordinating attacks against the likes of Deathstroke, and defined much more by her charisma and sheer butt kicking ability than by her ties to Ollie.

And now, after being mishandled and executed by the show runners, Laurel seems to have officially faded away from prominence in the show, while Sara, a character who clearly grew beyond their expectations, is right now still following some of the notes of the Chairman Black Canary pretty successfully, and even getting a bit of a BoP partnership thing going with Hawkgirl.
 
well put Godsawome it was their portrail of the show runners that hurt laurel the character here . and it was what they chose execution wise and focus wise that did from the jump.

sara existing wasn't the problem is was what they chose to do with them execution wise.
 
Yes, I'd love for her to be on Legends of Tomorrow and Sara to come back to Arrow, I think that would be way more interesting than what they've done.

No, no, no, no. It's great the way it is right now. Personally, I hope Sara doesn't return to Arrow at all. She should stay on Legends of Tomorrow, or move to a Birds of Prey spin-off, which needs to really happen. At most she should have the occasional guest appearance on Arrow.
 
With all due respect, at this point you are coming off as a shameless Olicity shipper who sees no wrong in anything the show does. Characterisation, and in particular remaining faithful to source material has been one of the biggest flaws of the show since it's inception. For example:

Constantine Drakon: Henchman killed in the first episode.
The Count : Terribly casted, reduced to a drug dealer, recasted and reduced to a comedy bumbling villain.
Laurel pre-black canary : Not the best casting. Never written believably that she could become BC or made endearing to the viewers. Written so terribly in the second season she struggled to ever recover.
Merlyn : Incredible first season but strange and incomprehensible writing ever since.
Slade : Good couple of seasons but motivation was a silly love triangle. reduced to a terrible cameo in season 3.
Felicity : Well written as the nerdy sidekick who had a couple of scenes each episode. Now unrealistically defeating villains single handedly every other week and crying about what she deserves to appease shippers.
Moira Queen : Best actress on the show killed off.
Shado : Killed off with so much scope left for the character.
BC Laurel : Killed off just as she was winning over everyone after aforementioned terrible writing.
Damien Darhk : Great actor, interesting character. Overused so much that I really don't care to see him fight Oliver again for what... 25th time this season?

I can't really put the issues with R'as, LOA, China White, Oliver, Sara, Thea, Roy, Suicide Squad or Captain Lance into a single sentence.

Really outside of Tommy, the mayor in S2, Nyssa, Diggle and his wife, I can't think of many characters who have been handled well all throughout their run. It's the weakest part of the show.

I agree with parts of your post, but disagree with others. They did a great job with Slade and he was very accurate to the comics, including his motivation being him avenging a dead loved one. You can hardly use him as something to bash the show with, even if they made mistakes with him (they should have built up his love for Shado better and shown it more, before she was killed).

They have also done a good job overall with Malcolm, despite some silliness regarding his character, like Oliver handing him the LOA, when he could have disbanded it. Along with Vertigo, Merlyn is GA's main villain in the comics, and that has been the case on the show too. Nobody has caused as much pain and hurt for Oliver than Malcolm has. Even Laurel's death had Malcolm's dirty paw prints all over it. Malcolm is an improvement over his comic counterpart IMO.

Darhk, too, has been fantastic, and they are probably going to expand on him more and tell us more about his backstory. While they have made mistakes with him too, he is hardly something to bash the show about. He is one of the shows strongpoints and he is season 1 and 2 quality.

I agree with a lot of the other things that you have said. They have done an abysmal job with Vertigo, the first one in particular was unwatchable.
 
No, no, no, no. It's great the way it is right now. Personally, I hope Sara doesn't return to Arrow at all. She should stay on Legends of Tomorrow, or move to a Birds of Prey spin-off, which needs to really happen. At most she should have the occasional guest appearance on Arrow.

I dont think it will happen,BOP that is. It's not a random chick team up,the property is a fundamental part of Batman mythos,getting BOP is just 2 steps away from getting Batman and one from Nightwing both of whom I'm sure Berlanti and Co would love to have.
I hope they appear in the next Batman and spinoff in to their own movie franchise or maybe the reverse.
 
To be quite honest, I never once felt Ollie considered her a friend based on how they were written together. I was so happy when Laurel called him out on it earlier in the season, where she felt he thought he was better than her.

Not to mention, when they finally had that heart to heart later on, it seemed like they were starting to mend the relationship into a friendship, because up until that point, I feel like Laurel was more of a sister/best friend to Thea, because we had seen how their relationship evolved throughout the series.

And all of this is why it hurts so much that they killed her off, because they finally started moving in a forward direction with her (minus the resurrecting Sara stuff, which killed her momentum from last season) and it seemed like we were finally getting to that point where their friendship could be believable, and it wouldn't seem like they could only tolerate each other for the sake of the team. But notice how Oliver was the only one who didn't say "I or We love you" in that last scene. Either that was an Olicity thing, or that was because he truly didn't feel as deeply for her, but their whole relationship in the present seemed non-existent. So while it was touching to have the reveal of her still being in love with him, it didn't come across as genuine, especially considering that last season she said she doesn't even know why she ever loved him.
 
To be quite honest, I never once felt Ollie considered her a friend based on how they were written together. I was so happy when Laurel called him out on it earlier in the season, where she felt he thought he was better than her.

Not to mention, when they finally had that heart to heart later on, it seemed like they were starting to mend the relationship into a friendship, because up until that point, I feel like Laurel was more of a sister/best friend to Thea, because we had seen how their relationship evolved throughout the series.

And all of this is why it hurts so much that they killed her off, because they finally started moving in a forward direction with her (minus the resurrecting Sara stuff, which killed her momentum from last season) and it seemed like we were finally getting to that point where their friendship could be believable, and it wouldn't seem like they could only tolerate each other for the sake of the team. But notice how Oliver was the only one who didn't say "I or We love you" in that last scene. Either that was an Olicity thing, or that was because he truly didn't feel as deeply for her, but their whole relationship in the present seemed non-existent. So while it was touching to have the reveal of her still being in love with him, it didn't come across as genuine, especially considering that last season she said she doesn't even know why she ever loved him.

I am wondering if there was a specific reason for that. Part of me thinks that if Oliver and Laurel did fake her death, like some people are speculating, maybe it had something to do with that, or maybe it had something to do with her last words to him that we did not hear. I hope it has nothing to do with his relationship with Felicity, such as them being afraid of upsetting shippers. You can love someone a lot, but not want to go out with them. I hope there is a good reason for him not saying that to her like everyone else did, other than his relationship with Felicity.
 
Regarding if Laurel was a good BC or not. I think this last episode proved that, if they wrote her good, she would be a believable BC.

The last episode had some good stunts (it seemed to me that on the bunker, where she tossed the league of assassins guy over her shoulder using the police stick it was realy her, and not s stunt double). She was confident, level headed, it seemed to be a equal partner, like, if she was like that more often, I don't see how many ppl could have problems with her....
 
I know this following argument adresses that question in very broad way, but I'm curious for your take on what I'm about to write:

To me, "respect" for source material in adapting characters is tied heavily into making sure that whatever you're adapting matches the potential of its basis in some way; if you have an adaptation of Arthurian mythology, for instance, don't show a Merlin who doesn't some how impress the audience on par with the older versions of the character. Even if you decide to subvert some aspects of his portrayal, you almost always have to enhance other aspects to make the adaptation worthy; thus, a significantly smaller and less massive Bane can have a good adaptation in TDKR if his intelligence, skill, and charisma is presented to compensate.

Now, I've thought for quite some time that there's really two different portrayals of Black Canary prevalent in the comics: Black Canary as a supporting character to Green Arrow (Let's call her Lady Bird), and Black Canary as an independent superhero and member of the Birds of Prey and Justice League (Let's call her The Chairman).

Lady Bird was the more popular version of the character during the 70's to early 90's; and it's no coincidence that Dinah had several more Damsel in Distress and victimization moments in that time-frame. But once Birds of Prey took off, a new generation of readers got introduced to a more no-nonsense, sparring-partner-with-Lady-Shiva Chairman who didn't need any rescues and arguably came off better than Oliver as both a crime fighter and as a personable individual (makes sense; Ollie was dead for a good portion of the 90's and 00's!)

And I think that's why some people will always have trouble taking Cassidy's Laurel as a well handled adaptation of their ideal version of the character; Cassidy was always going to be Lady Bird, a supporting cast character who was supposed to have her love life and bond with Ollie define her. Cassidy did a great job, but the failure to get her chemistry with Amell's Ollie right made for a handicapped Lady Bird character who at times emphasized the weakness of that character direction...

...While at the same time, here comes Sara, meant to be a strictly ancillary character for the show, but kind of turning into a pitch perfect version of the Chairman for the show; she's portrayed as Ollie's equal, a take charge vigilante capable of coordinating attacks against the likes of Deathstroke, and defined much more by her charisma and sheer butt kicking ability than by her ties to Ollie.

And now, after being mishandled and executed by the show runners, Laurel seems to have officially faded away from prominence in the show, while Sara, a character who clearly grew beyond their expectations, is right now still following some of the notes of the Chairman Black Canary pretty successfully, and even getting a bit of a BoP partnership thing going with Hawkgirl.

Before I get into addressing your post, I'd like to post the following quote from Fellowship of the Ring editor John Gilbert, as it explains my philosophy on adaptation in a nutshell:
"I always find that literal adaptations don't work. You have to find what you think is essential to the book, and make your movie of that."

Now, on to addressing your post.

Given that I feel the way I do when it comes to adaptation, I have some very specific criteria for what does or does not constitute a "satisfactory" adaptation of something:
1) Does the thing being adapted appeal to me in and of itself
2) Is it consistent in its own internal narrative and narrative logic?
3) Is there a clear "endgame" in mind in terms of what's happening?
4) Can I still recognize the original source material in the interpretation I'm seeing?

Arrow's portrayal of Laurel Lance fits every single one of the above criteria, and I am therefore able to put aside all preconceived notions of what I want out of the character and just go along for the ride, accepting that this version of Laurel is intended to mirror Oliver more than any other character on the series and that we, as an audience, are meant to follow her as she passes through a "crucible" and emerges on the other side different from the person she'd been before. The introduction of a character like her sister Sara plays into that by introducing character traits that Laurel doesn't quite have yet that she'll need to develop in order to "become who she was born to be", just as the introduction of characters like Yao Fei, Shado, and Tommy Merlyn bring character traits into play that Oliver doesn't yet have but will need to develop in order to become the character that he's meant to be.

Arrow is and has always been a show that is very much like FOX's Gotham in that it's an origin series. However, whereas Gotham wears its "origin-ness" very much on its sleeve unapologetically, Arrow tends to be more subtle in its approach, building the characters towards an "endgame" that mirrors the comics while approaching things from a more real-world perspective where things aren't as clean-cut as they might be in said comics.

Audiences were never meant to look at the character of Sara and compare/contrast her to Laurel or go "they already have a comics-perfect Black Canary; why are they building Laurel up to be that character?" Sara's sole purpose, narratively, was to, as I noted, be a character who could help Laurel evolve into someone who was 100% recognizably the Black Canary from the comics. However, even with that "endgame" in mind, there was never any guarantee that we'd get to see her actually become the recognizable Black Canary from the comics, or that she'd reach that "endgame" quickly, just as there is no actual guarantee that Oliver will ever reach his "endgame" of becoming a Green Arrow who is recognizable from the comics.

We'll unfortunately never get to see Arrow's version of Laurel reach her "endgame" because of the decision to kill her off, but that in and of itself is reflective of the show's real-world approach to adapting the Green Arrow source material.
 
The amount of the hate the writers are getting for a offing yet another major character with the best recent development is sort of brought on them. The already low ratings will suffer. Marc clearly has no clue how to write great characters. Just terrible.
 
It just sucks that they gave her next to nothing this entire season, finally introduce a semi interesting story arc for the character and then kill her off.
 
^ In part b/c they wanted to spend time telling stories about Olicity angst, instead of spending some of that time on Laurel/BC :csad:
 
^ In part b/c they wanted to spend time telling stories about Olicity angst, instead of spending some of that time on Laurel/BC :csad:

Or anyone else really. But yeah, she got the worst of it.
 
So is EBR going to get KC's place in the credits or will she stay where she is? EBR has been the lead for a while now above everyone else. Sometimes even above Stephen Actimel.
 
When you think about it, they did a show Laurel a lot of respect in her last few scenes, and I mean A LOT. Felicity called her "the strongest". In the Arrow universe, I imagine there is no greater honour than that.
 
I know this following argument adresses that question in very broad way, but I'm curious for your take on what I'm about to write:

To me, "respect" for source material in adapting characters is tied heavily into making sure that whatever you're adapting matches the potential of its basis in some way; if you have an adaptation of Arthurian mythology, for instance, don't show a Merlin who doesn't some how impress the audience on par with the older versions of the character. Even if you decide to subvert some aspects of his portrayal, you almost always have to enhance other aspects to make the adaptation worthy; thus, a significantly smaller and less massive Bane can have a good adaptation in TDKR if his intelligence, skill, and charisma is presented to compensate.

Now, I've thought for quite some time that there's really two different portrayals of Black Canary prevalent in the comics: Black Canary as a supporting character to Green Arrow (Let's call her Lady Bird), and Black Canary as an independent superhero and member of the Birds of Prey and Justice League (Let's call her The Chairman).

Lady Bird was the more popular version of the character during the 70's to early 90's; and it's no coincidence that Dinah had several more Damsel in Distress and victimization moments in that time-frame. But once Birds of Prey took off, a new generation of readers got introduced to a more no-nonsense, sparring-partner-with-Lady-Shiva Chairman who didn't need any rescues and arguably came off better than Oliver as both a crime fighter and as a personable individual (makes sense; Ollie was dead for a good portion of the 90's and 00's!)

And I think that's why some people will always have trouble taking Cassidy's Laurel as a well handled adaptation of their ideal version of the character; Cassidy was always going to be Lady Bird, a supporting cast character who was supposed to have her love life and bond with Ollie define her. Cassidy did a great job, but the failure to get her chemistry with Amell's Ollie right made for a handicapped Lady Bird character who at times emphasized the weakness of that character direction...

...While at the same time, here comes Sara, meant to be a strictly ancillary character for the show, but kind of turning into a pitch perfect version of the Chairman for the show; she's portrayed as Ollie's equal, a take charge vigilante capable of coordinating attacks against the likes of Deathstroke, and defined much more by her charisma and sheer butt kicking ability than by her ties to Ollie.

And now, after being mishandled and executed by the show runners, Laurel seems to have officially faded away from prominence in the show, while Sara, a character who clearly grew beyond their expectations, is right now still following some of the notes of the Chairman Black Canary pretty successfully, and even getting a bit of a BoP partnership thing going with Hawkgirl.

Just want to say how much I've enjoyed your posts/analyses. They've given me a way to think more critically about the show -- Thank you! Also I'm thinking about trying out some BC comics & so above info is very useful
 
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