Discussion: Gay Rights II

[Red Mask]

I'll say that the major problem in the world isnt religion or science. Its greed, self centeredness (general "my way is better than your way" thinking) and bigotry.

I'm not big on Bible quotes, but I always liked "Look not for the splinter in your neighbor's eye. Look for the log in your own."

Corrupt morality is big problem. It didn't take the Vatican long to condemn greed as the financial crisis spread. But I wouldn't trust them to guide us out of this mess. I'd prefer their priests spare us their 'rods'.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Corrupt morality is big problem. It didn't take the Vatican long to condemn greed as the financial crisis spread. But I wouldn't trust them to guide us out of this mess. I'd prefer their priests spare us their 'rods'.

Absolutely. Greed, as we now can plainly see, can indeed be a deadly sin. I trust the Vatican in matters of the spirit. In this financial situation, I trust the economists.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

more interesting news!

Judge: Prop 8 donor names must be public
by The Associated Press on 1/30 at 4:20 pm.
Viewed 236 times.



(Sacramento, California) A federal judge denied a request Thursday to keep secret the names of donors to California’s anti-gay marriage initiative, saying the public had a right to know who gave money to state ballot measures.

Supporters of the Proposition 8 initiative, which overturned a state Supreme Court ruling that allowed gay marriage, had sought a preliminary injunction to remove the identities of those who contributed to their campaign from the secretary of state’s Web site. The initiative was approved by voters in November.

They also had asked U.S. District Judge Morrison England Jr. to block the Monday release of the names of donors who either gave money two weeks before the election or shortly afterward. Those names will be publicly released in postelection campaign finance reports.

But the judge sided with the state, saying that California’s campaign disclosure laws were intended to protect the public and were especially important during expensive initiative campaigns.

“If there ever needs to be sunshine on a political issue, it is with a ballot measure,” England said.

He said many campaign committees have vague names that obscure their intent, and the public would have no way of knowing who was behind the campaigns unless they could see who was giving money.

Supporters of the ban on gay marriage said public disclosure of their financial supporters had put the donors at risk of personal harassment or boycotts to their businesses.

Frank Schubert, co-manager of the Yes on 8 campaign, said another 1,600 people would be put at risk with the release of the reports.

The state had said in court papers that granting exemption to the plaintiffs could lead to a situation in which no campaign committee involved in a ballot measure could be required to disclose its donors because of the potential for harassment.

That would deny voters the right to know who was behind those campaigns, the state said.

The state also noted that most of the activity the plaintiffs called harassment was actually protected free speech, such as threats of boycotts.

Roman Porter, executive director of the California Fair Political Practices Commission that enforces the state’s campaign disclosure laws, called the ruling “a victory for the people of California and disclosure.”

Richard Coleson, an attorney for the plaintiffs, said he understood the state’s “interest in requiring disclosure.”

“But there has to be an exception when there is a reasonable probability of reprisal,” he said.

Opponents of Proposition 8 said it was hypocritical for anti-gay marriage backers to cite fear of harrassment.

Fred Karger, founder of gay-rights group Californians Against Hate, said the initiative’s backers had threatened boycotts against businesses that failed to donate to their effort during the campaign.

“Now they complain of harassment?” he said.

Schubert said Thursday’s ruling was a first step in a long legal process that could end up in appeals courts.

The judge said he didn’t agree that the plaintiffs had a probability of success in court and that they had not proven they would suffer “irreparable injury” if he did not grant the preliminary injunction.

The judge planned to issue a more detailed written ruling later.

Corvino: The truth about gay adoption
by 365gay.com on 1/30 at 4:40 pm.
Viewed 315 times.



I don’t have children, I don’t want children, and I don’t “get” children.

Some of my friends have children. I like their children best at two stages of their lives:

(1) When they’re small enough that they come in their own special carrying cases and stay put in them.

(2) When they’re big enough that they don’t visit at all, but instead do their own thing while their parents do grownup stuff.

In between those stages, children tend to run amok, which makes me nervous. My house is full of sharp and heavy objects. I did not put them there to deter children—honest!—but I am more comfortable when children (or their parents) are thus deterred. It’s safer for everyone involved.

Having said that, I admire people who have children. I have a flourishing life largely because I was raised by terrific parents. When others choose to make similar sacrifices, I find it immensely praiseworthy.

Which may be why opposition to gay adoption makes me so angry.

Mind you, I am not by nature an angry person. Regular readers of this column know that I go out of my way to understand my opponents. Rick Warren compares homosexuality to incest? Well, what did he mean by the comparison? What was the context? What’s motivating him?

Attack gay parents, however, and my first impulse is to pick up one of the aforementioned sharp and heavy objects and hurl it across the room.

That’s partly because these attacks criticize adults who are doing a morally praiseworthy thing. And it’s partly because the attacks hurt innocent children, toward whom I feel oddly protective, despite my general aversion.

Back in November, a Miami Dade circuit judge ruled that Florida’s law banning gays from adopting is unconstitutional. This is very good news.

The Florida ban took effect in 1977, the era of Anita Bryant and Jerry Falwell. We’ve come a long way since then—or so I’d like to think.

Yet the Florida religious right is trotting out the same old arguments, repeatedly insisting that having both a mother and father is “what’s best for children.”

Let’s put down our sharp and heavy objects for a moment and try addressing this calmly.

Every mainstream child health and welfare organization has challenged this premise. The American Academy of Pediatrics. The Child Welfare League of America. The National Association of Social Workers. The American Academy of Family Physicians—you name it.

These are not gay-rights organizations. These are mainstream child-welfare organizations. And they all say that children of gay parents do just as well as children of straight parents.

But let’s suppose, purely for the sake of argument, that they’re all wrong. Let us grant—just for argument’s sake—that what’s best for children is having both a mother and a father.

Even with that major concession, our opponents’ conclusion doesn’t follow. The problem is that their position makes the hypothetical “best” the enemy of the actual “good”.

Indeed, when discussing adoption, it’s a bit misleading to ask what’s “best” for children.

In the abstract, what’s “best” for children—given our opponents’ own premises—is to not need adoption in the first place, but instead to be born to loving heterosexual parents who are able and willing to raise them.

So what we’re really seeking is not the “best”—that option’s already off the table—but the “best available.”

What the 1977 Florida law entails is that gay persons are NEVER the best available. And that’s a difficult position for even a die-hard homophobe to maintain.

It’s difficult to maintain in the face of thousands of children awaiting permanent homes.

It’s difficult to maintain in the face of gay individuals and couples who have selflessly served as foster parents (which they’re permitted to do even in Florida).

It’s difficult to maintain in light of all the other factors that affect children’s well-being, such as parental income, education, stability, relationships with extended family, neighborhood of residence, and the like—not to mention their willingness and preparedness to take on dependents.

What the Florida ban does is to single out parental sexual orientation and make it an absolute bar to adoption, yet leave all of the other factors to be considered on a “case-by-case,” “best available” basis.

Meanwhile, thousands of children languish in state care.

For the sake of those children, I resist my urge to hurl heavy objects at the Florida “family values” crowd. Instead, I ask them sharply and repeatedly:

Do you really believe that it is better for children to languish in state care than to be adopted by loving gay people?

Those are the real-world alternatives. Those are the stakes. And our opponents’ unwillingness to confront them is an abysmal moral failure.


John Corvino, Ph.D. is an author, speaker, and philosophy professor at Wayne State University in Detroit. His column “The Gay Moralist” appears Fridays on 365gay.com.

For more about John Corvino, or to see clips from his “What’s Morally Wrong with Homosexuality?” DVD, visit www.johncorvino.com.

Catch John as he travels to speak and to debate same-sex marriage with Glenn Stanton of Focus on the Family:

Feb. 03 Saginaw Valley State Univ. (debate) 7 pm Malcolm Field Theater
Feb. 10 Missouri State Univ. (debate) 7 pm Plaster Student Union Theater
Feb. 11 Missouri Southern State Univ. (debate) 7 pm Webster Auditorium
Feb. 12 Univ. of Kansas, Lawrence (lecture) 7 pm venue TBD

Psychoanalysts call for end to military gay ban
by 365gay.com on 1/28 at 5:42 pm.
Viewed 569 times.



(New York City) The American Psychoanalytic Association is calling on Congress to repeal “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” the law the bars gays from serving openly in the military.

At its convention this month in New York City, the APsaA passed a resolution opposing the ban.

“It is the position of APsaA that sexual orientation is not germane to any aspect of military effectiveness, including unit cohesion, morale, recruitment or retention,” the resolution says.

“Empirical evidence, as well as comparative data from foreign militaries and domestic police and fire departments shows that when lesbians, gay men and bisexuals are allowed to serve openly there is no evidence of disruption.”

The resolution goes on to say ” APsaA recognizes and abhors the many detrimental effects the policy has had on individual service members, the military and the United States society since the enactment of Title 10, section 654 in 1994. Years of psychological research and experience have shown the extensive mental toll of keeping one’s sexual orientation hidden. Mandating a ban on self disclosure of sexual orientation for personnel in uniform is thus unnecessarily harmful to their mental health and well being.”

” For the mental health and safety of those in the military and for those who are contemplating joining the military, this repeal needs to happen now. Evidence shows the presence of gays does not undermine unit cohesion. Tens of thousands of gays, lesbians and bisexuals already do serve openly. Discharging gays, lesbians and bisexuals wastes thousands of highly trained, badly needed troops,” said Ethan Grumbach, chair of APsaA’s Committee on Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Issues.

The American Psychoanalytic Association has approximately 3,300 members.

Since DADT was enacted, more than 12,000 servicemembers have been dismissed when it was learned they are gay. According to statistics from the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, which advocates for gays in the military, an average of two service members are dismissed under the law every day.

Legislation to repeal “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” the ban on gays serving openly in the military was taken up in committee last year for the first time, but did not make it to a vote. The bill is expected to be refiled this year. If it is passed President Obama has said he would sign it.

 

[wiegeabo]

Supporters of the ban on gay marriage said public disclosure of their financial supporters had put the donors at risk of personal harassment or boycotts to their businesses.

The state also noted that most of the activity the plaintiffs called harassment was actually protected free speech, such as threats of boycotts.

Your goddamn right they have a right to protest politically with boycotts. Just like the boycotts King led all those years ago. If you don't want to lose customers, then don't piss them off.

Best way to hurt a conservative, in their wallets.

Fred Karger, founder of gay-rights group Californians Against Hate, said the initiative’s backers had threatened boycotts against businesses that failed to donate to their effort during the campaign.

“Now they complain of harassment?” he said.

Because they're hypocritical and don't care about the people, country, or world, just their own little piece of it.

 

[Schlosser85]

It didn't take the Vatican long to condemn greed as the financial crisis spread. But I wouldn't trust them to guide us out of this mess.

In my opinion, the Vatican has little room to lecture anyone about anything.

I might be gay, but I don't harbor child molesters.

 

[Hobgoblin]

In my opinion, the Vatican has little room to lecture anyone about anything.

I might be gay, but I don't harbor child molesters.

You can believe whatever you want. No one here said that you do harbor child molesters. And its not like I always agree with the Vatican. I just dont think they are the devil either.

 

[Matt]

The notion of the Vatican pisses me off (and I'm a Catholic). I don't think they are bad people...I don't think they are evil. I just think a hierarchy that borders on a monarchy when the bible teaches us equality and not to put false idols on a pedestal is a bit hypocritical.

 

[Marx]

The notion of the Vatican pisses me off (and I'm a Catholic). I don't think they are bad people...I don't think they are evil. I just think a hierarchy that borders on a monarchy when the bible teaches us equality and not to put false idols on a pedestal is a bit hypocritical.

I believe the saying goes something like 'clean up your own house before you try to tear down another'. The Vatican has enough problems of their own to deal with without intervening in matters like this.

 

[Kelly]

The notion of the Vatican pisses me off (and I'm a Catholic). I don't think they are bad people...I don't think they are evil. I just think a hierarchy that borders on a monarchy when the bible teaches us equality and not to put false idols on a pedestal is a bit hypocritical.

Martin Luther had a problem with that as well......its called "The Protestant Reformation"...

 

[Hobgoblin]

I never said the Church was perfect, just that it isnt the source of the world's problems as so many people assert.

 

[Marx]

I never said the Church was perfect, just that it isnt the source of the world's problems as so many people assert.

With all due respect Demo, the large majority of the world's conflicts are due to religion.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Many, not all. Much is just due to greed, arrogance and stupidity.

 

[Marx]

Many, not all. Much is just due to greed, arrogance and stupidity.

I said the 'larger majority', not all.

 

[Hobgoblin]

And I still wouldnt agree with that. A large number? Sure. A majority? No.

 

[Kelly]

With all due respect Demo, the large majority of the world's conflicts are due to religion.

It's the scapegoat......IF they followed their beliefs as they should, we would have fewer....but they don't. They take their human hatred, and then need to feel better about it so they use religion.

Example: Serbs vs. Muslims after the fall of communism in Yugoslavia.

Serbs: Well they deserve it, they used genocide on us during the Crusades (christians vs. muslims, OVER LAND).

Muslims: That was our history, but we have grown past that....

Serbs: Nope, paybacks a ***** ain't it....


Most of the time wars are over land and power, and religion gets blamed.

 

[Marx]

It's the scapegoat......IF they followed their beliefs as they should, we would have fewer....but they don't. They take their human hatred, and then need to feel better about it so they use religion.

Example: Serbs vs. Muslims after the fall of communism in Yugoslavia.

Serbs: Well they deserve it, they used genocide on us during the Crusades (christians vs. muslims, OVER LAND).

Muslims: That was our history, but we have grown past that....

Serbs: Nope, paybacks a ***** ain't it....


Most of the time wars are over land and power, and religion gets blamed.

That's a fair statement. I'll agree with that.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

It's the scapegoat......IF they followed their beliefs as they should, we would have fewer....but they don't. They take their human hatred, and then need to feel better about it so they use religion.

Example: Serbs vs. Muslims after the fall of communism in Yugoslavia.

Serbs: Well they deserve it, they used genocide on us during the Crusades (christians vs. muslims, OVER LAND).

Muslims: That was our history, but we have grown past that....

Serbs: Nope, paybacks a ***** ain't it....


Most of the time wars are over land and power, and religion gets blamed.

i'll agree to this, but the reason it gets blamed is usually the words "in the name of god" are uttered. they use religion as an excuse for there cause.

 

[Mister Sinister]

Something I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned - Iceland elects the world's first gay head of state

 

[wiegeabo]

I had no idea that happened today. And one of the guys I know here on the forum is from Iceland and he didn't mention anything.

Or course, we've been giving him a hard time about his country's economy and government utterly collapsing...


Since Iceland already legally protects gay partnerships, I wonder how long before the fully legalize marriage.

 

[Hobgoblin]

It's the scapegoat......IF they followed their beliefs as they should, we would have fewer....but they don't. They take their human hatred, and then need to feel better about it so they use religion.

Example: Serbs vs. Muslims after the fall of communism in Yugoslavia.

Serbs: Well they deserve it, they used genocide on us during the Crusades (christians vs. muslims, OVER LAND).

Muslims: That was our history, but we have grown past that....

Serbs: Nope, paybacks a ***** ain't it....


Most of the time wars are over land and power, and religion gets blamed.

I agree with all of this.

Interesting news about Iceland electing its first gay head of state. I wonder how it will be spun by talk radio and Fox News, if they bother mentioning it.

 

[Red Mask]

I wouldn't care what too much what mainstream news says about it.

 

[The Senator]

I agree with all of this.

Interesting news about Iceland electing its first gay head of state. I wonder how it will be spun by talk radio and Fox News, if they bother mentioning it.

If Iceland continues to collapse financially under her leadership, I have a strong feeling that anti-gay groups will blame it on the fact that Iceland has an openly gay Prime Minister and will use Iceland as "proof" that acceptance of homosexuality is detrimental for society.

 

[Red Mask]

If Britain and America continue to financially collapse under their leaderships the people will also blame it on politics and prejudice. We're all in the deep stuff. Iceland is in it worse because most of their money was overseas. It's economics, not social behavior. Maybe America won't see it that way, but hey - they helped cause this crisis.

 

[Sloth7d]

Many, not all. Much is just due to greed, arrogance and stupidity.

I agree with that. Most religions very existence are due to idiotic narcissist that convey their will onto the people through the facade of some evil sky daddy waiting to judge them at all moments. Religion is one of the mere by products of man's want. It is not the root however of "all" our problems, as you said. For it was our own evil that created it in the first place.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I agree with that. Most religions very existence are due to idiotic narcissist that convey their will onto the people through the facade of some evil sky daddy waiting to judge them at all moments. Religion is one of the mere by products of man's want. It is not the root however of "all" our problems, as you said. For it was our own evil that created it in the first place.

Actually, I was referring to wars being caused by greed, arrogance and stupidity. Not religion.

Totally, random: Senator, who is in your avatar? I dont recognize him. Why that particular person?