Discussion: Legalizing Marijuana II

[Whiskey Tango]

Oh wow....

Funny, that's the reaction I had at mrvlknight21's implication that weed compels people to go out and commit violent crimes.

 

[Figs]

This is cracking me up.....you. are. stoned.

I'm going out on a limb here and am going to guess you've never smoked pot in your life. If you have you than you must have had a bad experience or you couldn't handle your ****.

Sorry, but numerous people I know that are hardcore stoners all drive perfectly fine. You people need to stop acting like it affects you like alcohol or a worse drug like heroin.

You are acting like you get hallucinations off of marijuana...that's what's cracking me up right now.

 

[SV Fan]

You are acting like you get hallucinations off of marijuana...that's what's cracking me up right now.

I actually a couple times got hallucinations BUT that weed was definitely laced with something which shouldn't be a problem with legal marijuana

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

My theory is that weed reveals truths in a tree of knowledge sense which is why it's forbidden.

God may have reasons for wanting individuals to avoid that kind of ”knowledge” but for thinkers who believe an unexamined life is not worth living it can be an absolute necessity to test the bounaries of their own mind and of reality itself. Obviously.

So God needs to make.clear why any form of blindness is in our best intrrest.

I don't blame Eve for eating the apple and offering to Adam. Maybe she was just a thinker and philosopher. But God veiwed it as ingratitude and greed possibly.

For someone with a billion IQ God seems to have an imposing ego.

Sorry if this tangent bothered anyone but I've been thinking how cannabis could be the forbidden tree of knowledge lately.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

It's kind of interesting that Eve was surrounded by God in paradise but wanted an alternative so God exiled her and Adam to a ”distant” secular reality. The tree of knowledge was the gateway to secular existence.

Now in secular existence the tree the opposite, it serves as the key to Eden at least partially and seemingly.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[mrvlknight21]

That doesn't mean cannabis was the catalyst.

correlation =/= causation

Criminals have used caffiene on many occasions, doesn't mean motivates crime.

A stoned person wants to sit on the couch, watch the cartoon or nature channel, and eat nachos. Not beat their wife or charge a cop like drunks have been known to do on many occasions. And there are some in the law enforcement community who openly acknowledge this difference.

Check out L.E.A.P. (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition).

I agree that correlation does not equal causation. I am not saying that marijuana is/was a catalyst for the crimes. You said that marijuana users do not go out and rape, etc etc etc (unless I misread something).
I have looked at some of the stuff from LEAP before (specifically a couple of youtube videos they put out).

Technically if they smoked a joint and are high, they did a crime off the bat. lol

LOL. Good call.

Dude that's not gonna happen with prohibition laws. Whenever there is a prohibition about something, a criminal cartel is born to push it in the market in illegal ways in adulterated forms and many dangers hidden behind the transaction.
And why just see a society without drugs? Why not a world without guns also, wars, diseases, poverty etc?

Oh sure, obviously a world without cancer, crime, etc would be true Utopia, I just said the drugs because this is the marijuana legalization thread.

How did you saw them exactly? Were you with them before the crime to see if they got high on marijuana? Did you got a valid report after the crime that proves they were high?

I guess "saw/seen" isnt the correct wording.
You are correct in your second guess-police reports (often with drug/alcohol screens being done), my own arrests/interviews with offenders, etc. I am in law enforcement.

Sure you have.

Yes, I have.
I have spoken about this before on this board, I am in law enforcement and have been for over 10 years. I have "seen" a lot of things (proven with lab reports even) that may surprise you.
I think it is laughable and hypocritical that I am willing to hear other people's own firsthand experiences and studies conducted (about this AND many other topics), but the minute that I state something from my own experience that goes against what the majority thinks or popular opinion, I get the whole
Someone said something about respecting others earlier I think, so lets keep it classy.

this right here says enough. Not telling you to smoke it, but I highly suggest doing some research on it before jumping to conclusions.

And I have, but always willing to learn more (please note that I asked MessiahDecoy for some of the statistics/studies that he mentioned in an earlier post).
Again, my studies and experience have led me to the beliefs that I currently have. Dont get me wrong, I am not calling myself an expert about marijuana (or anything for that matter), I am just a guy who has some knowledge and a lot of experience with criminals, unfortunately.

Funny, that's the reaction I had at mrvlknight21's implication that weed compels people to go out and commit violent crimes.

Funny, thats not what I said OR implied. Please re-read and note that I was replying to MessiahDecoy's statement that marijuana users do not go out and rape, drive recklessly, etc. I NEVER SAID WEED WAS THE COMPELLING FACTOR. You guys are making a LOT of assumptions, so please, if I am not clear, ask me to clarify.


**********************************
Speaking of this, I want to say that I appreciate MessiahDecoy's manner in which he speaks his points and makes his arguments on this topic. Obviously we disagree, but he is respectful and makes an effort to give information to those who ask.

 

[Alex_Spider]

I agree that correlation does not equal causation. I am not saying that marijuana is/was a catalyst for the crimes. You said that marijuana users do not go out and rape, etc etc etc (unless I misread something).
I have looked at some of the stuff from LEAP before (specifically a couple of youtube videos they put out).

LOL. Good call.

Oh sure, obviously a world without cancer, crime, etc would be true Utopia, I just said the drugs because this is the marijuana legalization thread.

Well then let's make a new thread for each one
Seriously though you can search the web for your self and do a research. That way you will have a better judgment deciding what makes more sense on the subject.

I guess "saw/seen" isnt the correct wording.
You are correct in your second guess-police reports (often with drug/alcohol screens being done), my own arrests/interviews with offenders, etc. I am in law enforcement.

Yes, I have.
I have spoken about this before on this board, I am in law enforcement and have been for over 10 years. I have "seen" a lot of things (proven with lab reports even) that may surprise you.
I think it is laughable and hypocritical that I am willing to hear other people's own firsthand experiences and studies conducted (about this AND many other topics), but the minute that I state something from my own experience that goes against what the majority thinks or popular opinion, I get the whole
Someone said something about respecting others earlier I think, so lets keep it classy.

Yes but how are you sure that the crimes the reports wrote were caused directly by the use of marijuana? I would even say that with the bureaucracy and the lack of enough personnel or even the bigotry against cannabis one might think they make reports as they fit so they can demonize it even more and get done quickly with the case.

I personally am willing to read your thoughts it's just that a simple "i read reports" is not enough for me.

And I have, but always willing to learn more (please note that I asked MessiahDecoy for some of the statistics/studies that he mentioned in an earlier post).
Again, my studies and experience have led me to the beliefs that I currently have. Dont get me wrong, I am not calling myself an expert about marijuana (or anything for that matter), I am just a guy who has some knowledge and a lot of experience with criminals, unfortunately.

Funny, thats not what I said OR implied. Please re-read and note that I was replying to MessiahDecoy's statement that marijuana users do not go out and rape, drive recklessly, etc. I NEVER SAID WEED WAS THE COMPELLING FACTOR. You guys are making a LOT of assumptions, so please, if I am not clear, ask me to clarify.


**********************************
Speaking of this, I want to say that I appreciate MessiahDecoy's manner in which he speaks his points and makes his arguments on this topic. Obviously we disagree, but he is respectful and makes an effort to give information to those who ask.

 

[mrvlknight21]

Alex Spider
^ I think there were some issues with what you quoted, so I am literally reading between the lines here, but here is my responses to what I think you wrote.

#1 I have done some research, as I stated. But, as also previously stated, I am always willing to learn more and learning is a life long process. I do not, nor have I ever claimed to be an expert on this subject matter.

#2 I am not sure how many ways I can say this, so I will bold it just for emphasis (not just for you, but the others who keep saying that I said this). I NEVER said or implied that marijuana CAUSES ANYONE to commit ANY crimes.
I believe that in my post that I THINK you guys keep referring to, I am responding to MessiahDecoy's statement that marijuana users do NOT do those things, when in fact they do. Plenty of crimes have been committed while a person was under the influence of marijuana, I have "seen" this firsthand in my work in law enforcement. Again, to be 100000% clear, I am not, not, not saying that marijuana MADE the person COMMIT or WANT TO COMMIT the crime. I am merely saying that people sometimes DO commit crimes while high on marijuana. (not mad, just trying to emphasize what I was saying here).

 

[Alex_Spider]

Alex Spider
^ I think there were some issues with what you quoted, so I am literally reading between the lines here, but here is my responses to what I think you wrote.

Err sorry *fixed

 

[Lantern Venom]

No it's not the same problem. You are arresting cannabis users based on drunk driving casualties which are astronomical when compared to stoned driving casualties.



But you don't want to make alcohol completely illegal, just weed.

That makes no sense. It's like making gum illegal because a few people choked on a gumball and allowing everyone to smoke cigarettes which kill 5 million deaths per year.

It's hypocritical and beyond stupid.

Why tolerate something far more destructive while punishing countless people for doing something relatively harmless?

Alcohol kills 75,000 people a year and you still haven't posted a reasonably accurate estimate of how many people a year die from cannabis.

Again, we come back to the same place where you misunderstand me. My central point is that people who engage in recreational drug use negatively impact the lives of innocent people. Currently, the government, and both political parties in general, are completely spineless in regards to discouraging/appropriately punishing those who don't take the proper safeguards when they are using alcohol, a legal intoxicant.

It's an indisputable fact that adding a second legal intoxicant will lead to more injuries and deaths via accidents and recklessness. Those of us who want to live our lives free of intoxication, both personally and from those around us, only want recreational substance users to be held accountable for their actions. Right now, they are not, and no one seems to be working on the problem.

 

[SV Fan]

Sorry if this tangent bothered anyone but I've been thinking how cannabis could be the forbidden tree of knowledge lately.

I remember once watching this documentary on marijuana a couple years back. There was this guy who had a weed church in California who referred to marijuana as the tree of knowledge. lol

On the subject of Adam and Eve, you aren't the only one who views "God" not wanting people to gain knowledge as a huge problem with the whole story. Basically the first story in the bible is a parable not to question authority and do what the man says and everything should be fine, if you don't your life will go to hell. But hey God loves you, he just has funny ways of showing it.

 

[seishin87]

Again, we come back to the same place where you misunderstand me. My central point is that people who engage in recreational drug use negatively impact the lives of innocent people. Currently, the government, and both political parties in general, are completely spineless in regards to discouraging/appropriately punishing those who don't take the proper safeguards when they are using alcohol, a legal intoxicant.

It's an indisputable fact that adding a second legal intoxicant will lead to more injuries and deaths via accidents and recklessness. Those of us who want to live our lives free of intoxication, both personally and from those around us, only want recreational substance users to be held accountable for their actions. Right now, they are not, and no one seems to be working on the problem.

It's actually not an "indisputable fact". In fact there's a whole study mentioned in this article that contradicts your perspective.

Why Medical Marijuana Laws Reduce Traffic Deaths
http://healthland.time.com/2011/12/02/why-medical-marijuana-laws-reduce-traffic-deaths/

I feel the biggest problem is the misperceptions about the "intoxicating" effects of cannabis. You really can't compare the impairment from alcohol to what cannabis does. To really understand you would have had to at least tried both. If not then you really can't say anything about that.

I am a medical cannabis user. I had tried cannabis recreationally in the past but when I was going to college I developed a sever case of anxiety/Hypocondria. It was really unpleastant and I thought I was sick or dying. My doctor told me the tests were all fine. It was a mental or chemical imbalence issue. I was prescribed many pyschopharmacueticals i.e Zoloft, Ativan, Valium, Seroquel. The Zolfot made my celling look like it was melting so I stopped that. Seroquel made my anxiety worse. Ativan and Valium helped but they are horribly addicting and there was a rebound effect in that while it gave me relief, it also made my anxitey far worse. It was the cannabis that finally brought it all under contol. I've been using only it to treat my condtion for the past 7 years and haven't had any major relapses with the anxitey. I have driven while medicated but I am aware of how cannabis effects me and for me at least I wouldn't say it impairs my driving. I've never been in an accident or had any issues.

That said, just incase cannabis should come with a warning that says use caution or reframe from driving or operating machinery until you know how cannabis effects you. A warning that comes with many legal perscription and over the counter drugs.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

The Colbert Report: 'America's Pot-astrophe'

 

[Lantern Venom]

It's actually not an "indisputable fact". In fact there's a whole study mentioned in this article that contradicts your perspective.

Why Medical Marijuana Laws Reduce Traffic Deaths
http://healthland.time.com/2011/12/02/why-medical-marijuana-laws-reduce-traffic-deaths/

I feel the biggest problem is the misperceptions about the "intoxicating" effects of cannabis. You really can't compare the impairment from alcohol to what cannabis does. To really understand you would have had to at least tried both. If not then you really can't say anything about that.

I am a medical cannabis user. I had tried cannabis recreationally in the past but when I was going to college I developed a sever case of anxiety/Hypocondria. It was really unpleastant and I thought I was sick or dying. My doctor told me the tests were all fine. It was a mental or chemical imbalence issue. I was prescribed many pyschopharmacueticals i.e Zoloft, Ativan, Valium, Seroquel. The Zolfot made my celling look like it was melting so I stopped that. Seroquel made my anxiety worse. Ativan and Valium helped but they are horribly addicting and there was a rebound effect in that while it gave me relief, it also made my anxitey far worse. It was the cannabis that finally brought it all under contol. I've been using only it to treat my condtion for the past 7 years and haven't had any major relapses with the anxitey. I have driven while medicated but I am aware of how cannabis effects me and for me at least I wouldn't say it impairs my driving. I've never been in an accident or had any issues.

That said, just incase cannabis should come with a warning that says use caution or reframe from driving or operating machinery until you know how cannabis effects you. A warning that comes with many legal perscription and over the counter drugs.

I'm sorry, but I find the highlighted paragraph to be a silly argument. It's illogical to think that a person must try a risky behavior to understand it. Simply educating oneself about cannabinoid receptors in the brain is sufficient for understand the risks of marijuana.

And the prescription psychotropics you mentioned just underscore my main point. Drugs should be used as medicine only, because even then there are inherent risks involved. Sometimes, it even means drastic changes in one's life to accomodate the medicine's effects on the brain. When a drug is being used recreationally, the risks are unnecessary.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

---

 

[moraldeficiency]

It's really not a silly rationale. It's an experience question, and in this case an experience that does not harm oneself or anyone else. And we are talking about the effects of intoxication, not the moral judgement of its use. Two completely different things. To speak with actual knowledge about the intoxicating effects of hemp vs. alcohol one would have to actually know what they are. To speak about the illegalities of holding up a liqueur store one would only have to have a third grade concept of morality and the ability to read.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Report: No Easy Options for Feds in Legal Marijuana States

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Lots of interesting info in this one.

Majority Now Supports Legalizing Marijuana

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I'm sorry, but I find the highlighted paragraph to be a silly argument. It's illogical to think that a person must try a risky behavior to understand it. Simply educating oneself about cannabinoid receptors in the brain is sufficient for understand the risks of marijuana.

And the prescription psychotropics you mentioned just underscore my main point. Drugs should be used as medicine only, because even then there are inherent risks involved. Sometimes, it even means drastic changes in one's life to accomodate the medicine's effects on the brain. When a drug is being used recreationally, the risks are unnecessary.

It's your opinion that the risks are unnecessary.

But I should have a say in what recreational activities I can take part in since I only have a brief time to be alive and the recreation in question is relatively safe when compared to legal drugs like alcohol and cigarettes which kill hundreds of thousands EVERY YEAR.

You still haven't established how many are killed by cannabis annually.

A rough estimate would be nice considering 21 million have been unjustly arrested for cannabis since 1965.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Un-****ing-believable. I suggest not reading this if your blood pressure is high.

North Carolina: Senate Blocks Testing Themselves When Passing Welfare Drug Testing Bill

Republicans in the North Caroline Senate on Monday pushed through a bill that would take away food stamps and job training for people who fail a drug test. At the same time, they rejected an amendment offered by Democratic Senator Gladys Robinson which would have drug tested the governor, cabinet secretaries and the lawmakers themselves.

Republican Sen. Jim Davis claimed he didn't mind being tested, but said that he would vote against the amendment because it had no mechanism to reimburse him for the $100 test. He didn't seem overly concerned that welfare applicants -- who have far less money than Senator Davis -- will face the same problem.

"If you have money to buy drugs, you have money to buy good, you have money to support your family," Davis said before the Senate Judiciary Committe on Tuesday, reports Philip Smith at StoptheDrugWar.org. "You don't deserve public assistance." Sen. Davis claimed "non-drug users" would "gladly" pay for drug tests because they know they will be reimbursed.

http://hemp.org/news/content/north-...selves-when-passing-welfare-drug-testing-bill

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Total hypocrites.

Why am I not surprised that liquor guzzling politicians who want to keep cannabis illegal are hypocrites?

It also makes you wonder what they're hiding by avoiding drug testing? Weed use? Coke use?

I guess it's nobody's business. It's not like a politician's drug-induced decisions have more impact on society than the average welfare recipient.

Oh wait.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Marijuana DUI Bill Fails (Again) In Colorado Senate

This Makes 4 Times: Senators Remain Unconvinced That Marijuana Impairs Like Alcohol

Washington state voters seemed OK with instituting a THC blood limit for drivers when they approved limited legalization measure Initiative 502 last fall. But Colorado lawmakers seem to want a little more proof.

A blood limit for drivers was rejected on Monday in the Colorado Senate for the fourth time. Skepticism on the applicability of alcohol-style THC blood limits helped defeat even a watered-down form of the measure.

The Senate Judiciary Committee, on a 4-1 vote, rejected the blood standard after a long hearing “that has become something of an annual tradition in the Senate,” reports The Associated Press. Each of the past four legislative sessions, the lawmakers have looked at the scientific evidence for and against using marijuana content in the blood to determine if drivers are impaired.

“This is a significant public safety concern,” claimed Matt Durkin, a state assistant attorney who supports the marijuana DUI bill. The bill, like Washington state’s legalization measure I-502, would have limited drivers to five nanograms per milliliter of blood for THC, the main psychoactive ingredient in cannabis.

Durkin claimed that recreational marijuana use will rise because of Colorado’s vote last year to defy federal marijuana laws by legalizing small amounts of cannabis for people over 21 years old.

Washington state voters also legalized small amounts of pot for adults last year, but unlike Colorado’s law, Washington’s doesn’t allow home cultivation, and the law includes a 5 ng/ml THC blood limit for drivers.

 

[Kelly]

This however, will screw this for other states later on....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/20/denver-pot-holiday/2098755/

It's kind of funny that this is the first time this has been brought up on this thread.....

Dumb ass stuff like this is going to kill any chances in those hard to change states.

 

[Kelly]

I'm going out on a limb here and am going to guess you've never smoked pot in your life. If you have you than you must have had a bad experience or you couldn't handle your ****.

Sorry, but numerous people I know that are hardcore stoners all drive perfectly fine. You people need to stop acting like it affects you like alcohol or a worse drug like heroin.

You are acting like you get hallucinations off of marijuana...that's what's cracking me up right now.

One of the primary effects of marijuana in humans is disruption of short-term memory. That is consistent with the abundance of CB1 receptors in the hippocampus, the brain region most closely associated with memory. The effects of THC resemble a temporary hippocampal lesion.

Either you weren't REALLY STONED, or you actually don't remember..... I'll go with the first one.....