Discussion: Torture

[stryfe]

No, I'm not. If you're tortusing suspects, especially suspects in something as hard to catch as international terrorism, you're going to end up severely ****ing up a large number of innocent people.

Bull**** YOU do not know that for certain. This is YOUR hypothesis.



Your hypothesis---------------------------------------------------truth.


Im not saying it CANT happen im saying that making it a given is not accurate. Your assuming there going to randomly grab people and torture them. What if there being shot at by someone in the company of known al qaeda members? They offer no information about themselves or who there with so technically there "terror suspects" so shall me release and let them on there merry way because gee we dont know for sure.

 

[The Question]

Bull**** YOU do not know that for certain. This is YOUR hypothesis.



Your hypothesis---------------------------------------------------truth.

It is the truth. Not every suspect is guilty. Many aren't. Especially with something as hard to catch as international terrorism. If you're torturing suspects, you will end up torturing innocent people.

Im not saying it CANT happen im saying that making it a given is not accurate. Your assuming there going to randomly grab people and torture them. What if there being shot at by someone in the company of known al qaeda members? They offer no information about themselves or who there with so technically there "terror suspects" so shall me release and let them on there merry way because gee we dont know for sure.

Of course not. But that doesn't mean we should torture them. And as I said, not every suspect is guilty. It would be foolish to think otherwise. We torture suspects, we'll end up torturing innocent people.

 

[stryfe]

Look it up you ignorant half-wit, I'm not your tutor. They are "facts" and they are widely known around the world. But being that the world is a place you're so fearfull of, I wouldn't expect that you'd know much about the goings on there.

Im sorry but im not your follower so I dont just take your word as fact. "widely known around the world" and yet here you are unable to prove it to me. With so MANY sources surely you should be able to show me something.

 

[Addendum]

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law

Main Entry: sus·pect
Pronunciation: s&-'spekt
Function: transitive verb
1 : to imagine (one) to be guilty on slight evidence or without proof
2 : to imagine to exist or be probable <they had reasonable cause to suspect abuse>

 

[DBella]

Burn them at the stake. If they live and walk away, they are terrorists. If they die... Oopsie. Guess they're not. Oh well, we gotta do what we gotta do to find those emeffers so they won't kill us.

What century is this?

 

[stryfe]

It is the truth. Not every suspect is guilty. Many aren't. Especially with something as hard to catch as international terrorism. If you're torturing suspects, you will end up torturing innocent people.



Of course not. But that doesn't mean we should torture them. And as I said, not every suspect is guilty. It would be foolish to think otherwise. We torture suspects, we'll end up torturing innocent people.

Of course not every suspect is guilty. Does this bill say we are going to torture every suspect? I didnt read it anywhere in it. But just like a court of law if there is evidence to support that they infact have terrorist ties should we not be able to then use these methods vital information?

 

[The Question]

Of course not every suspect is guilty. Does this bill say we are going to torture every suspect?

It never said that we wouldn't.

I didnt read it anywhere in it. But just like a court of law if there is evidence to support that they infact have terrorist ties should we not be able to then use these methods vital information?

No. It's barbaric and it's taking us down to their level. We can't claim to be a more civilized society if we keep becoming less and less civilized.

 

[Addendum]

Has any vital information come out of torture?

Aside from giving the torturers the starting 11 for a college football team's offense?

 

[stryfe]

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law

Main Entry: sus·pect
Pronunciation: s&-'spekt
Function: transitive verb
1 : to imagine (one) to be guilty on slight evidence or without proof
2 : to imagine to exist or be probable <they had reasonable cause to suspect abuse>

Wow, good job. Now look up "jackass".

Bundy, Dahmer, D.C. snipers all "suspects" during there trial. So are they innocent as well?

 

[Addendum]

Wow, good job. Now look up "jackass".

Bundy, Dahmer, D.C. snipers all "suspects" during there trial. So are they innocent as well?

Until the evidence was provided in court that convicted them beyond a reasonable doubt.

However, from the moment they were arrested to when the jury reached a verdict, they were innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Spider-Bite]

this issue is so incredibly complex.

when we invaded Iraq the Iraqi military surrendered very easily. they never owuld have done that had they thought we were going to torture them.

there will be more wars in the future. we dont' want our troops being tortured, and we don't want to become an evil nation.

at the same time. is it righteous and moral to let a thousand people die just to stop a terrorist from being tortured? Is that right?

 

[stryfe]

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rm/2006/60898.htm

 

[Addendum]

Or are you just referring to the meaningless and worthless "court of public opinion", stryfe

 

[stryfe]

Until the evidence was provided in court that convicted them beyond a reasonable doubt.

However, from the moment they were arrested to when the jury reached a verdict, they were innocent until proven guilty.

Whos says the suspects are not going to be given that same chance?

 

[DBella]

this issue is so incredibly complex.

when we invaded Iraq the Iraqi military surrendered very easily. they never owuld have done that had they thought we were going to torture them.

there will be more wars in the future. we dont' want our troops being tortured, and we don't want to become an evil nation.

at the same time. is it righteous and moral to let a thousand people die just to stop a terrorist from being tortured? Is that right?

If they're confirmed terrorists, I don't mind the torture. If it's confirmed they're involved in terror plots, I don't mind. But are they confirmed terrorist or are they only suspected of being a terrorist? If there are hard evidence that points to them being a TERRORIST, I don't mind.

But I agree, it can be quite a dilemma because we don't really know if they are innocent or not.

 

[stryfe]

Has any vital information come out of torture?

Aside from giving the torturers the starting 11 for a college football team's offense?

Im willing to bet information has been gathered on account of torture sometime, yes.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Whos says the suspects are not going to be given that same chance?

that would defeat the purpose. by then it might be too late to stop the terrorist act from being committed. They want to use this to get information beforehand. I really am kind of undecided at the moment, but I think I'm leaning in favor of the bill.

It's not legal and it never, ever, ever, ever, ever, never should be legal to torture somebody to punish them for committing an act of terrorism or any crime.

 

[Addendum]

And I should trust the government's word because...

 

[stryfe]

If they're confirmed terrorists, I don't mind the torture. If it's confirmed they're involved in terror plots, I don't mind. But are they confirmed terrorist or are they only suspected of being a terrorist? If there are hard evidence that points to them being a TERRORIST, I don't mind.

But I agree, it can be quite a dilemma because we don't really know if they are innocent or not.

I am not saying torture those who we think MIGHT be terrorists. I am saying detain them and if you find enough evidence they are terrorists then this mean of gathering information is one I am willing to back up. If there is no evidence to support the claim of them being a terrorist then no torture is not justified.

 

[Addendum]

Im willing to bet information has been gathered on account of torture sometime, yes.

Again, I'll rely on the word of someone who has actually been tortured over someone who has never experienced torture, with regard to it providing useful information.

 

[Spider-Bite]

I wish we didn't even have to consider this.

man reality sucks. maybe that's why we spend so much time at a comic book message board.

 

[Spider-Bite]

you know what though? does anybody here really consider sleep deprivation to be torture anyways? yeah it would suck. but most people think of torture as like mutilation, burning, sticking bamboo shoots under fingernails, smashing testicles, or strapping them to a chair while a huge buff guy punches them in the face.

edit.. actually I have no idea what it would it would be like to go days or weeks without sleep. for all we know it might get painful.

there is also the fact that torture can make a person dillarious and give you false information. but if they aren't talking, then I guess it can't hurt. Information thay may or may not be true at least gives you something to go on, if the suspect refuses to talk.

 

[Sofa]

you know what though? does anybody here really consider sleep deprivation to be torture anyways? yeah it would suck. but most people think of torture as like mutilation, burning, sticking bamboo shoots under fingernails, smashing testicles, or strapping them to a chair while a huge buff guy punches them in the face.

Sleep deprivation = mental torture. It can, if done excessively, lead to insanity.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

i feel bad for any soldiers who are gonna get captured and tortured.

Expect to hear about American soliders being captured and tortured as well.It happens on both sides,the Americans will do it first,but they will regret this action,like everything else Bush has done.

 

[Gonking]

I would like to congratulate the USA on officialy becoming a terrorist state. Yay! It's been a long haul kid, but you've finaly made it, good for you.

haha