Doctor Who - Not a Hugging Type of Thread - Part 19

[storm-x-fan]

I gotta say, I gave up on this series this season. I can't be the only one, but Clara being a Mary Sue, would be an understatement. In my opinion, she has ruined the show. What drew me to doctor who was who The Doctor was such a plot device. I felt that Clara, at minimum was his equal, just as clever, and now she has her own TARDIS? What is this? The excitement of The Doctor being a timelord just doesn't stand for me, not when his companion is superior to him.

Ill give the next season a few episodes too, but I think I'm giving up on this show for good

Clara is my least favorite companion. She's a Mary Sue and a poor man's Rose Tyler. Donna Noble gets her memory wiped, freaking Sarah Jane Smith gets abandoned, and Clara gets her own TARDIS? Just not fair. I hated season 8 because the focus on Clara and her love life was just too much. I liked season 9 better by comparison. Until this ending. Ugh.

 

[SelinaKitten]

To be fair both of those things happened under different head writers and this ending seemed like a deliberate way of saying that what happened with Donna was a lousy way to write a companion out of the show

And Clara's happy ending here is a bit bittersweet as she can't ever see her best friend again and eventually she will have to return to her proper place in history knowing that it is the moment she dies

 

[Manic]

I don't understand the "Clara is a Mary Sue" complaints. Clara has far too many character flaws to be a Mary Sue. She's reckless, impulsive, lies constantly, and has no clue where her limits are. This resulted in her losing her best friend, losing the love of her life, and losing her own life. Also, despite she and the Doctor getting on like a house on fire, they served as enablers for one another (as the finale pointed out). The fact that she and Ashildr are currently flying off in a stolen TARDIS while Clara is still technically dead is a huge mistake on her part, and that impulse to run away could unravel time if anything happens to her.

In short, Clara has walked away a much worse person than she was when the Doctor met her.


On a slightly different note, if it really bothers you that a companion would aspire to be the Doctor's equal, avoid Romana at all costs. She was the Doctor's equal to such a degree that she built her own sonic screwdriver.

 

[#root]

I don't understand the "Clara is a Mary Sue" complaints. Clara has far too many character flaws to be a Mary Sue. She's reckless, impulsive, lies constantly, and has no clue where her limits are. This resulted in her losing her best friend, losing the love of her life, and losing her own life. Also, despite she and the Doctor getting on like a house on fire, they served as enablers for one another (as the finale pointed out). The fact that she and Ashildr are currently flying off in a stolen TARDIS while Clara is still technically dead is a huge mistake on her part, and that impulse to run away could unravel time if anything happens to her.

In short, Clara has walked away a much worse person than she was when the Doctor met her.


On a slightly different note, if it really bothers you that a companion would aspire to be the Doctor's equal, avoid Romana at all costs. She was the Doctor's equal to such a degree that she built her own sonic screwdriver.

Well said. Agree with every word. Especially the bit about her and the Doctor being each others enablers . Clara was a great character whose flaws had actual consequences in the story.

Anywho, do we have any idea when we'll know more about the next companion? I hope there's more than one this time. It's always fun when the Doctor has multiple companions.

 

[The Batman]

Oh, please. Having a lot of flaws doesn't keep Clara from being a Mary Sue. Matter of fact, her flaws, and the lack of meaningful consequences for them, often made her Mary Sue qualities stick out even more.

The Doctor often catches flak for his actions, and more often than not pays for them. This Series 9 finale is a perfect example of that.

Clara lies to her boyfriend about seeing The Doctor, and is quickly forgiven. Clara BETRAYS The Doctor, and after a brief scolding, he is willing to go to hell for her. Clara tries to be The Doctor, fails, and dies...only for that to be basically rewritten. She still gets killed by the Raven, but gets to have a lifetime of adventures before that, essentially as an immortal.

As Matt said earlier, this is the woman who tells The First Doctor what Tardis to pick, Prevents The Eleventh Doctor from killing Gallifrey, basically gives The First Doctor some of his most well known credo's, and saves nearly every single incarnation of The Doctor. Clara is definitely a Mary Sue.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Oh, please. Having a lot of flaws doesn't keep Clara from being a Mary Sue. Matter of fact, her flaws, and the lack of meaningful consequences for them, often made her Mary Sue qualities stick out even more.

The Doctor often catches flak for his actions, and more often than not pays for them. This Series 9 finale is a perfect example of that.

Clara lies to her boyfriend about seeing The Doctor, and is quickly forgiven. Clara BETRAYS The Doctor, and after a brief scolding, he is willing to go to hell for her. Clara tries to be The Doctor, fails, and dies...only for that to be basically rewritten. She still gets killed by the Raven, but gets to have a lifetime of adventures before that, essentially as an immortal.

As Matt said earlier, this is the woman who tells The First Doctor what Tardis to pick, Prevents The Eleventh Doctor from killing Gallifrey, basically gives The First Doctor some of his most well known credo's, and saves nearly every single incarnation of The Doctor. Clara is definitely a Mary Sue.

Isn't Danny's death(via the Soldier man) partly because she didn't heed his warning about the nature of the Doctor turning people into weapons?So basically she gave two young men their credos and one ended up losing his life for it.

If anything, a large part of the Clara-Doctor dynamic was that anyone around them paid the price for their actions cause they were too interwined to each other. Gallifrey, Me, Danny, Osgood.

You make it seem like Clara was God-Moffat sent to fix the universe when in reality, she was a net benefit to the Doctor with high cost they both paid for emotionally.

 

[Manic]

Clara is honestly no more a Mary Sue than any other female companion in New Who. She has a handful of notable character flaws, she and the Doctor become intolerably smug as time passes, and by the season finale she goes on to do The Most Important Thing Ever. The only one who doesn't fit that mold is Martha, and she's everyone's least favorite companion for reasons I won't go into.

 

[Tanin]

I like Martha better than Adric.... She at least had that going for her!

 

[The Batman]

Isn't Danny's death(via the Soldier man) partly because she didn't heed his warning about the nature of the Doctor turning people into weapons?So basically she gave two young men their credos and one ended up losing his life for it.

Danny died because he got hit by a car, which has nothing to do with Clara giving him a credo...then he gave up his chance to live again to atone for accidentally killing a little kid, which again, has nothing to do with Clara giving him a credo.

If you can't see why people would consider Clara a Mary Sue, well I guess it is what it is. The idea that Clara isn't more of a Mary Sue than other companions is baffling to me, though.

 

[Manic]

You're also complaining about Clara being too important. But like...

The universe rewrote itself around Donna's job interview
Amy brought the Doctor back from un-existence by remembering him
Rose graffiti tagged herself across the whole of time
Time folded itself up like an envelope because River didn't want to shoot her husband

But Clara is a big deal because she advised the 1st Doctor which TARDIS to steal. Okay.

 

[The Batman]

But Clara is a big deal because she advised the 1st Doctor which TARDIS to steal. Okay.

And you want to pretend (and I stress the word "pretend") that people have a problem with Clara because of....only one "impossible thing" she did. Okay.

 

[Manic]

And you're pretending these same complaints don't resurface with nearly every female companion on this show since its revival. People hate the Impossible Girl for being too perfect and important and sassy, just like they hated Amy, River, Donna, and Rose for those same reasons.

The Doctor does amazing and impossible things in just about every episode, so the female leads are often given the chance to shine and prove she's just as important as he is. That's pretty much how the revival of this show was pitched about 10 years back.

I guarantee you that the next companion will receive just as much hate as Clara for most of the same reasons (with some added racism if she's not white). And when the next showrunner takes over, if he/she continues Davies' manifesto of making the companion just as important as the Doctor, they'll get just as much flack.

And when the next companion comes along, a large number of fans will complain that she has no personality/character after her first two episodes, and she'll constantly get compared to Clara.


I'm not even that big a fan of Clara. I'm just tired of seeing this pattern repeat itself.

 

[The Batman]

And you're pretending these same complaints don't resurface with nearly every female companion on this show since its revival.

Stop building Straw man arguments.

 

[Pink Ranger]

The next companion should actually be named Mary Sue just to put this whole argument to rest.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Danny died because he got hit by a car, which has nothing to do with Clara giving him a credo...then he gave up his chance to live again to atone for accidentally killing a little kid, which again, has nothing to do with Clara giving him a credo.

If you can't see why people would consider Clara a Mary Sue, well I guess it is what it is. The idea that Clara isn't more of a Mary Sue than other companions is baffling to me, though.

Clara's speech to the little boy about the toy soldier inspired him into the military were he met the kid and put him on the path to Coal Hill and meeting Clara and the Doctor. Thus in harms way from Missy's plan because of his attachment to Clara.

No. My problem is your idea that Clara just walked away from her bad actions. Thus making her a Mary Sue. She had to work through her mistakes. She was ready to let that face hugger eat her she was so riddled with guilt and loneliness.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

The next companion should actually be named Mary Sue just to put this whole argument to rest.

Now that Gallifrey is back I would love to see a family theme explored. Like Mother/son companion or brother/sister.

I think can leave the girl runs away for excitement routine alone for a few series.

 

[Manic]

Stop building Straw man arguments.

Stop willfully ignoring the past. "Mary Sue" always gets used to describe the New Who companions. Their storylines elevate them to the most important women in the universe. Hell, we couldn't even get away from Rose Tyler during the 50th anniversary, where the most powerful piece of tech in the universe thought taking on her form was the most appropriate.

What's supposed to balance out a character and prevent them from becoming a Mary Sue is their personal flaws. If a character can and does fail, how Mary Sue-ish are they really? Clara tries and fails at being the Doctor a few times (in fact, her central character arc was that she was picking up the Doctor's negative traits and treating them as virtues), gets herself killed, pushes the Doctor into betraying his own principles, and quite frankly Danny was too good for her.

The final episode of the season tried to hammer home the fact that Clara was bad for the Doctor. Think about that. This character was driving our main protagonist to morally corrupt ruin within the narrative of the show.

You know what's really difficult to do with a Mary Sue? Rattle off a list of negative aspects about the character that were intentionally put there by the writers. Clara had many failings as a person. The fact that she also made great accomplishments doesn't wipe away her failures. The narrative of the show went out of its way to keep her off of a pedestal by saying that some of the stuff she was doing was bad.

You don't have to like Clara. I don't even like her that much. She ranks just above Rose and Mickey in my book, and they're my least favorite New Who companions. But let's not label her something she's not.

Generally speaking, I think Mary Sues are an overrated concept that don't show up in long-running fiction (such as TV shows, book series, ongoing comics) as often as people think.

 

[SelinaKitten]

Now that Gallifrey is back I would love to see a family theme explored. Like Mother/son companion or brother/sister.

I think can leave the girl runs away for excitement routine alone for a few series.

I too would like something different for the next companion maybe an alien companion or a companion from the past or distant future rather than one from modern day earth

 

[The Batman]

Stop willfully ignoring the past.

I really don't care about any walls of text you post if you're going to keep making claims about me that aren't true, especially when you can't back those claims up. So you should save yourself the trouble if you can't make your point without some BS statement. I have never, EVER claimed or pretended that people haven't had similar complaints about other companions. So please stop with this inane, presumptuous line of argument.

Clara's speech to the little boy about the toy soldier inspired him into the military were he met the kid and put him on the path to Coal Hill and meeting Clara and the Doctor. Thus in harms way from Missy's plan because of his attachment to Clara.

As long as he ended up dead, he was in harms way from Missy's plan.

The show doesn't even pay lip service to the idea that Clara is in any way responsible for Danny's death, or for Danny killing the little kid in the first place. Mainly because she isn't.

No. My problem is your idea that Clara just walked away from her bad actions. Thus making her a Mary Sue.

No. I said the lack of meaningful consequences for her flaws made her mary sue qualities stick out even more. You and Manic just love making things up.

 

[Manic]

If you're just going to refuse to debate with me or any of the points I've made, then I accept your concession and the inevitable "witty" image you'll use to reply to this post in lieu of an actual response.

 

[The Batman]

And I happily accept you conjuring up another straw man argument or lie in response to that response.

 

[Manic]

I don't think you're using "straw man" correctly. You're the one refusing to address my argument or examples as to why Clara's characteristics don't make her a Mary Sue. My added statement that this happens to other companions is just to express how tedious this argument has gotten these last 10 years.

 

[The Batman]

I don't think you're using "straw man" correctly.

And I disagree.

 

[Manic]

You clearly don't want to debate with me, and I admit to playing devil's advocate for a character who ranks somewhere in Dodo's league, so let's put an end to this and just agree that the next companion probably shouldn't meet the 1st Doctor.

 

[The Batman]

so let's put an end to this and just agree that the next companion probably shouldn't meet the 1st Doctor.

Looks like someone's picked up my penchant for being "Witty".