Doctor Who - Not a Hugging Type of Thread

[regwec]

This Doctor is written with enough wit and coarse charm for his spikiness not to be too unpalatable, though. From Saturday's episode at least, he seemed like a breath of fresh air.

 

[Deserana]

Gahhh it's so hard to not talk about the later episodes. Though still dont regret watching them.

I was very lukewarm toward Capaldi in Deep Breath as it just felt like Smith's words with Capaldi delivery but each episode he gets better and more comfortable. The next episode in particular is a treat for him.

 

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

Gahhh it's so hard to not talk about the later episodes. Though still dont regret watching them.

I was very lukewarm toward Capaldi in Deep Breath as it just felt like Smith's words with Capaldi delivery but each episode he gets better and more comfortable. The next episode in particular is a treat for him.

I've seen the first five leaked eps, as well, and I'm the same way as you about seein' 'em... and they DO get better and Capaldi gets more comfortable as the Doctor... those eps get better with each one till that really weird fifth one, Time Heist...

 

[Lord Valumart]

Right, stop that nonsense right now...

No leak episode talk around here.

 

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

Right, stop that nonsense right now...

No leak episode talk around here.

gotcha... no spoilers here on MY end...

 

[The Squirrel]

Seriously.

 

[Manic]

I was very lukewarm toward Capaldi in Deep Breath as it just felt like Smith's words with Capaldi delivery

Go rewatch "The Eleventh Hour." Eleven is written like Ten during the first half of the episode, and you don't get the impression Eleven has really come into his own until the hospital scene.

It might've been on purpose, is what I'm saying.

 

[Deserana]

Yeah it's sorta tradition for new Doctor's debuts to have bits of their previous Doctor about them. But with Smith and Tennant there was a scene toward the end when their Doctor shone through. Tennant when he awakes in the TARDIS on the ship with the swordfight (although in his debut he walks away saying "No second chances, that's what sort of a man I am" which I swear is never followed up ). And Smith with the hospital roof scene.

Capaldi sort of had that scene with the reveal he's wearing a mask but it still felt like Smith. I no longer have that issue though just to be clear. And wasnt aware of no leaked episode talk even if you say absolutely nothing.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Tennant, Smith and Capaldi each got their one line that signified the end of their regeneration.

"No second chances. I'm that sort of a man."
"Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, run." (Smith's had to be keep general because there was far more pressure on the Eleventh Hour than The Christmas Invasion or Deep Breath).
"I've got the terrible feeling I'm going to have to kill you."

As far as how the series progresses, both Ten and Eleven had episodes that don't really gel with how they end up. That outburst of rage at the end of The Beast Below is never seen again, New Earth was still written for Christopher Eccleston.

Spoiler

Gatiss episode (the only one thus far without Moffat input) seems to not really fit with Twelve's character and I think is the weakest of what I've seen.

I've got a lot of hope for Listen and everything after. Moffat seems to be on his game again.

 

[Matt]

Tennant, Smith and Capaldi each got their one line that signified the end of their regeneration.

"No second chances. I'm that sort of a man."
"Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, run." (Smith's had to be keep general because there was far more pressure on the Eleventh Hour than The Christmas Invasion or Deep Breath).
"I've got the terrible feeling I'm going to have to kill you."

As far as how the series progresses, both Ten and Eleven had episodes that don't really gel with how they end up. That outburst of rage at the end of The Beast Below is never seen again, New Earth was still written for Christopher Eccleston.

Spoiler

Gatiss episode (the only one thus far without Moffat input) seems to not really fit with Twelve's character and I think is the weakest of what I've seen.

I've got a lot of hope for Listen and everything after. Moffat seems to be on his game again.

I disagree with what you are saying. You are summing up Smith and Tennant to their lowest possible denominators in order to be apologetic for Twelve. And don't get me wrong, I like Twelve. I don't think anyone is criticizing. All anyone is saying is that we don't know him.

But yeah, the scenes you are citing aren't the definitive moments for the characters. Take Eleven for example...the scene that defines him isn't, "basically, run." There are two scenes:

One - The scene where he takes down Prisoner Zero and then calls the Atraxi back to scold them.

Two - The first scene with Amelia in the TARDIS ("I am definitely a mad man with a box!"). Plus there is another aspect of that scene, him seeing the crack on the viewing screen and obscuring it from Amelia as he misleads her.

Plus the opening scene with Amelia, right after regeneration. Plus "basically, run." The Eleventh Hour is chalked full of development.

And I disagree that Beast Below is still fleshing him out because of one outburst. Eleven is one of the angrier Doctors. He hides it behind his childish facade, but usually at least once every other episode, Eleven would have an outburst of some sort. Sometimes it was more subdued ("Colonel Runaway," scene comes to mind...or when he scolds Craig's friends for threatening to destroy a team...its played as a humorous scene, but you can see how quickly he turns off kindly, childish Doctor and goes into "I'm going to stop you," mode). Another one is what he does to the collector in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship. Eleven is full of anger and there are even bits and pieces of it in The Eleventh Hour ("Did you think no one was watching!?!", "Six billion lives! Does that seem important to you!?!?!"). We definitely know all we need to know about Eleven by the end of The Eleventh Hour.

The same can be said of Nine. We mostly know him by the time Rose wraps up. At least in the broad strokes.

Ten is an exception, yes...but honestly, The Christmas Invasion isn't an episode about the Doctor. It is an episode about Rose and the audience coming to terms with what happened. It is the first regeneration of NuWho. Therefore the episode uses Rose as a surrogate for the audience to reflect upon what happened while keeping The Doctor mostly sidelined. The first proper Ten episode is New Earth, and you can say "it was written for Nine," all you want, but the fact is it was clearly re-written (its not like they just shoved Tennant into an unaltered script) and we have a pretty good feel for Ten by the time the credits role. Hell, even Christmas Invasion, its not really an exception. It does give us a glimpse. The defining moment isn't him killing the Invader. It is him destroying Harriet (showing his own hypocrisy...a defining trait of Ten) and showing his devotion to Rose, despite her uncertainty throughout the episode.

Its true, we didn't know any Doctor perfectly after their first appearance, but we still generally knew them, in broad strokes. That isn't something I can say about Twelve. The broad strokes aren't there. We have a silhouette of a Doctor. Not much else. And that is fine. If you want to defend a slow reveal, feel free. But it is disingenuous to act as if the other Doctors of NuWho were developed equally as slowly.

 

[The Batman]

Well, the BBC hasn't been trying to get this show canceled ever since that extremely popular Doctor left and got replaced with the really young one, so I doubt we'll have to deal with the new angry Doctor's character arc being ruined by internal politics.

It sounds to me like you think JNT and his creative team had absolutely nothing to do with the perceived low quality of the show back in six's era.

 

[Manic]

It sounds to me like you think JNT and his creative team had absolutely nothing to do with the perceived low quality of the show back in six's era.

Oh, JNT has his fair share of the blame. So does script editor Eric Sward, because the quality of the show suddenly jumped up a notch as soon as he left. But there was a lot of interference from the higher ups at the BBC, and that hurt the show big time. The Sixth Doctor's character arc got sidetracked when JNT had to cobble together the Trial season as a last ditch effort to keep the BBC from canning them. A lot of scripts also had to be thrown out after they wrote the Trial. Then there's the whole mess of Colin getting fired between seasons.

It was all a mess.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I disagree with what you are saying. You are summing up Smith and Tennant to their lowest possible denominators in order to be apologetic for Twelve. And don't get me wrong, I like Twelve. I don't think anyone is criticizing. All anyone is saying is that we don't know him.

This is the exact thing I'm saying. The Ninth and Tenth Doctors were explored over several episodes because they weren't under any pressure to really assure people "this is really the Doctor, please believe us".

David Tennant and Russell T. Davies was so popular that the BBC considered cancelling Doctor Who when they left. The Eleventh Hour is really more of an exception in regeneration that it's more like a lightswitch. And they had the pressure from essentially rebooting the most popular drama TV series in the country.

But yeah, the scenes you are citing aren't the definitive moments for the characters. Take Eleven for example...the scene that defines him isn't, "basically, run." There are two scenes:

One - The scene where he takes down Prisoner Zero and then calls the Atraxi back to scold them.

Two - The first scene with Amelia in the TARDIS ("I am definitely a mad man with a box!"). Plus there is another aspect of that scene, him seeing the crack on the viewing screen and obscuring it from Amelia as he misleads her.

Plus the opening scene with Amelia, right after regeneration. Plus "basically, run." The Eleventh Hour is chalked full of development.

Well yeah, if you ignore Steven Moffat. He said as much that the Doctor wasn't formed until he gets to the rooftop. They didn't have that little run-through of all the Doctors for nothing you know.

And I disagree that Beast Below is still fleshing him out because of one outburst. Eleven is one of the angrier Doctors. He hides it behind his childish facade, but usually at least once every other episode, Eleven would have an outburst of some sort. Sometimes it was more subdued ("Colonel Runaway," scene comes to mind...or when he scolds Craig's friends for threatening to destroy a team...its played as a humorous scene, but you can see how quickly he turns off kindly, childish Doctor and goes into "I'm going to stop you," mode). Another one is what he does to the collector in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship. Eleven is full of anger and there are even bits and pieces of it in The Eleventh Hour ("Did you think no one was watching!?!", "Six billion lives! Does that seem important to you!?!?!"). We definitely know all we need to know about Eleven by the end of The Eleventh Hour.

It's not the anger, pretty much every Doctor gets angry, it's the outburst. He never reacts like that again. Ever.

Ten is an exception, yes...but honestly, The Christmas Invasion isn't an episode about the Doctor. It is an episode about Rose and the audience coming to terms with what happened. It is the first regeneration of NuWho. Therefore the episode uses Rose as a surrogate for the audience to reflect upon what happened while keeping The Doctor mostly sidelined. The first proper Ten episode is New Earth, and you can say "it was written for Nine," all you want, but the fact is it was clearly re-written (its not like they just shoved Tennant into an unaltered script) and we have a pretty good feel for Ten by the time the credits role.

Russell T. Davies said he was still getting the feel for the new Doctor himself AKA "I have no idea how to characterise him". All we found out is "OMG look how sexy the Doctor is now <3 :3".

Hell, even Christmas Invasion, its not really an exception. It does give us a glimpse. The defining moment isn't him killing the Invader. It is him destroying Harriet (showing his own hypocrisy...a defining trait of Ten) and showing his devotion to Rose, despite her uncertainty throughout the episode.

It's not hypocritical within the confines of the episode, it's just not reflective of how the character ended up being written.

Its true, we didn't know any Doctor perfectly after their first appearance, but we still generally knew them, in broad strokes. That isn't something I can say about Twelve. The broad strokes aren't there. We have a silhouette of a Doctor. Not much else. And that is fine. If you want to defend a slow reveal, feel free. But it is disingenuous to act as if the other Doctors of NuWho were developed equally as slowly.

You really think Time and the Rani is indicative of the Seventh Doctor?

Twelve's character has been revealed in the exact same way as his immediate predecessors. What is it you think you knew more about the Doctor's personality in Nine, Ten and Eleven from each of their first two episodes, using no other references?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Saw ENTER THE DALEK, and liked it for the most part. I like the prickliness of Capaldi's Doctor quite a bit. It's nice to see a less user friendly characterization, though there were some dark moments that through even me. [BLACKOUT]Seriously, that dude totally trusted the Doctor when he through him that pill or whatever, and then, whammo, dead as a door nail. Yeah, I know all the rationalizations that will come up... It still felt cold to me. But that's fine. Like I stated, 12 looks to be, well, prickly. And you can't spell prickly without...[/BLACKOUT]

I will say that as someone that only seriously got into WHO with the re-launch, that I don't get the constant evaluation of his character and ethics the show or the fans for that matter do so often. I think that underneath it all, yes, The Doctor is a good person. He has a strong moral sense and understands the responsibility of his great power in the Universe and it's limitations. And for the greater good, yeah, sure, he's had to sacrifice his own deeply held beliefs to get the job done from time to time. He has flaws, and anger and darkness in him. He also has kindness, empathy and great compassion. He's got little to no love in his hearts for such enemies as the Cybermen and the Daleks and many other seemingly implacably "evil" characters. So he's not a saint. Being a good man is not the same as being perfect, which seems to be the lament of some fans and even the Doctor himself on the show as well as the gist in some episodes.

I liked what we saw of Pink, and thought the moment of him banging his head on the desk was funny as hell. He's obviously going to be the "man of action" character on the show, but I liked that he wasn't a cool super stud type and was still a vulnerable sort. I do wonder what the whole "I don't like soldiers" thing is leading to. Not to mention, hasn't the Doctor had companions and relations with countless warrior/soldiers in the past?

Finally, [BLACKOUT]if in fact much of the Daleks' evil can be traced to a cybernetic implant, then shouldn't the Doctor do all in his power to find some way to shut THAT down, now that he knows, instead of just being mopey and chagrined that Rusty is going back into the fold to take out the rest of his ilk? [/BLACKOUT]

I liked the action packed episode and the continuing getting to know you phase of this Doctor, while being a little puzzled on what the general gist of the story's summation was, re: the nature of the Doctor and the Daleks. Again, still good all around, and Jenna Coleman really shined as Clara here. She was spunky, resourceful and seems well suited to keeping 12 in check.

 

[AnneFan]

This Doctor is written with enough wit and coarse charm for his spikiness not to be too unpalatable, though. From Saturday's episode at least, he seemed like a breath of fresh air.

I agree - 12 is a little darker but it's not all set one way. He's still a likeable, funny chap in his own way.

 

[RetroNaz]

Quick question, in the recent episode did it show Rusty beaming back to the Dalek ship and self-destructing? Or did that not make it into the final episode (it was in the screener).

I couldn't remember seeing it and thought the scene was a good wrap up to Rusty's character and commitment.

 

[OriginalMiles]

Listen is episode 4.

Listen is fourth.

Ah, thanks. I got the episode order confused.

Anyway, I think I should give my thoughts on "Into the Dalek".

Pretty good episode and I'm loving 12 so far. I really enjoy watching Capaldi on screen, even though he doesn't have the youthful energy like Smith and Tennant, which I thought would make me dislike him but it's working. He's a great Doctor and I think he might be my second favourite someday!

An interesting premise and they executed it nicely. The interactions between The Doctor and The Dalek were interesting, and I think they kinda paralled each other in a way. The Doctor is now a darker man, willing to let somebody die, while the Dalek became the complete opposite of a Dalek! Very nice.

Liking Danny Pink, and Clara is improving.

5/10

 

[wobbly]

Quick question, in the recent episode did it show Rusty beaming back to the Dalek ship and self-destructing? Or did that not make it into the final episode (it was in the screener).

I couldn't remember seeing it and thought the scene was a good wrap up to Rusty's character and commitment.

Iirc the last shot of Rusty was it reaching the junction at the end of a corridor, turning to go down it, and stops with it's eye stalk turning to look back at the Doctor. The Doctor mutters "til the next time" and hastily exits a nearby door. Rusty turns its eye forward and trundles off out of shot. That was it I think.

Maybe thought they could revisit Rusty later on or something (Blowing itself up on one ship wouldn't make much of dent to the Daleks after all).

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Quick question, in the recent episode did it show Rusty beaming back to the Dalek ship and self-destructing? Or did that not make it into the final episode (it was in the screener).

I couldn't remember seeing it and thought the scene was a good wrap up to Rusty's character and commitment.

It was cut because the episode was overrunning. I prefer this ending.

 

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

It was cut because the episode was overrunning. I prefer this ending.

same here...

 

[Lunar_Wolf]

I would have laughed if Rusty went to heaven.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

 

[Jason Kane]

Surprise 12's shirt's white in the promo as opposed to the purple in the episode

 

[DrCosmic]

Maybe I just don't know enough about DW to feel like I don't know 12, but I feel like we have a very clear understanding of what he's about. He's scared, trying to redeem himself, which is why I think this one in particular is so anti-soldier (the soldier way is the "wrong way", "Do it right!"), and he has been humbled enough to question his own nature. Is he good?

Saw ENTER THE DALEK, and liked it for the most part. I like the prickliness of Capaldi's Doctor quite a bit. It's nice to see a less user friendly characterization, though there were some dark moments that through even me. [BLACKOUT]Seriously, that dude totally trusted the Doctor when he through him that pill or whatever, and then, whammo, dead as a door nail. Yeah, I know all the rationalizations that will come up... It still felt cold to me. But that's fine. Like I stated, 12 looks to be, well, prickly. And you can't spell prickly without...[/BLACKOUT]

I will say that as someone that only seriously got into WHO with the re-launch, that I don't get the constant evaluation of his character and ethics the show or the fans for that matter do so often. I think that underneath it all, yes, The Doctor is a good person. He has a strong moral sense and understands the responsibility of his great power in the Universe and it's limitations. And for the greater good, yeah, sure, he's had to sacrifice his own deeply held beliefs to get the job done from time to time. He has flaws, and anger and darkness in him. He also has kindness, empathy and great compassion. He's got little to no love in his hearts for such enemies as the Cybermen and the Daleks and many other seemingly implacably "evil" characters. So he's not a saint. Being a good man is not the same as being perfect, which seems to be the lament of some fans and even the Doctor himself on the show as well as the gist in some episodes.

I liked what we saw of Pink, and thought the moment of him banging his head on the desk was funny as hell. He's obviously going to be the "man of action" character on the show, but I liked that he wasn't a cool super stud type and was still a vulnerable sort. I do wonder what the whole "I don't like soldiers" thing is leading to. Not to mention, hasn't the Doctor had companions and relations with countless warrior/soldiers in the past?

Finally, [BLACKOUT]if in fact much of the Daleks' evil can be traced to a cybernetic implant, then shouldn't the Doctor do all in his power to find some way to shut THAT down, now that he knows, instead of just being mopey and chagrined that Rusty is going back into the fold to take out the rest of his ilk? [/BLACKOUT]

I liked the action packed episode and the continuing getting to know you phase of this Doctor, while being a little puzzled on what the general gist of the story's summation was, re: the nature of the Doctor and the Daleks. Again, still good all around, and Jenna Coleman really shined as Clara here. She was spunky, resourceful and seems well suited to keeping 12 in check.

[BLACKOUT]They fixed the memory-killing machine and gave the Dalek a chance to decide for itself. It latched onto the Doc's hatred. That was sad.[/BLACKOUT]

I think the Doctor's question about is he a good man is very valid. How many people do I have to kill before I stop being a good man? Can I be Hitler, but as long as it's for the greater good, as long as I 'feel for' my victims, I'm a good guy? Also he's dealing with the idea that, without the guilt of Gallifrey, trying to redeem himself from that, how much of that compassion is gone. He's not trying to make up for anything, so at his core, when he's not trying to be a superhero to offset genocide... he's not wearing a mask anymore... is he really a good person?

 

[Gold Samurai]

Surprise 12's shirt's white in the promo as opposed to the purple in the episode

It was probably taken early in production or Photoshopped

Capaldi's hair is shorter too in that picture you posted