Dozens feared dead after truck strikes crowd in Nice, France

[DeadPresident]

You just keep on twisting those words.

Cool, let's run this down.

No, you want to make internment camps for Muslims,

Where did I say that? I would oppose that vehemently.

you want to call anyone who dares disagree with your kill them all approach as pathetic and cowardly.

Kill "all" who? Are you even compos?

You can't offer a solution that does not kill innocent people and not martyr them to create more ISIS soldiers.

Innocent people? Define innocent? Anyone aiding and abetting terrorists stops being innocent, surely? Surely an accessory to a crime is not defined as an innocent agent?

And yet you continue to bring into this comments I never once made. Quote me where I once said that innocent people should die to let ISIS go on. To where I said they shouldn't be stopped or dealt with in any way other than peacefully.

Find one quote where I said there was a peaceful answer.

So you're just going to use spurious logic and blatant lies (claiming I want internment camps for Muslims…are you stupid?) to shoot down any solution that doesn't match the bloodless one you want, and that doesn't exist?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

True, but if you ask most liberals whether they'd rather exterminate white supremacists (who may or may not be physically harming anyone) or radical Islamists they'd probably opt for the rednecks. I'm not sure when it happened but in the eyes of liberals the world over Islam has suddenly become a sacred topic. When it's Christians/Jews/Atheists they have no trouble condemning the actual set of beliefs, but for some reason they won't do it with extremists acting in the name of Islam.

Are we suddenly going to start claiming the Crusades had nothing to do with Christianity? "They're not real Christians!".

There's a hypocrisy present when the discussion of how to deal with radical Islam comes up.

I don't see much evidence that Liberals want to physically eradicate white supremacists.

The furthest they go is to suppress their freedom of speech with hate laws.

 

[Citadel30]

You are ignorant. Your answer was already tried and it failed. Your ignorance is doubly appearent when you think some random person on the internet is going to say "here's your solution to terrorism right here!" and then make peace in the world. I also never once suggested any of the ******** pacifist claims you are forcing into my mouth. That is all your creation, not mine.

You are really just wanting to fight over something that will never be won.

"Your answer was already tried and it failed."

The shock and awe piece of that "answer" worked and we were in the process of helping establish new governments by building infrastructure, supporting and teaching their govt officials how to run democratic governments, and training military to protect.. But then a new US administration took over (running on a ticket that promised hope and change) and completely gutted the sustainment piece of that "answer". So, we pull out preemptively and create a huge vacuum for ISIS to come in and do their thing... Unless we educate and dig in for the long haul AFTER we eradicate, it is a vicious cycle I'm afraid.

 

[DeadPresident]

I don't see much evidence that Liberals want to physically eradicate white supremacists.

The furthest they go is to suppress their freedom of speech with hate laws.

Sure, I agree, and like I said before I was using it to illustrate the tolerance that's been created around Islam. I'm not saying Liberals want to physically eradicate white supremacists, I'm saying that if given a choice between eradicating white supremacists or radical Islamists the choice from liberals appears to be that racism is a more heinous act than murdering almost a hundred civilians and they'd rather focus on the rednecks.

You've even got reformist Muslims like Maajid Nawaz asking white liberals to stop saying "Islam is not the problem", the same way we can't say that with the Crusades Christianity wasn't the problem. It's at least part of the problem.

https://mobile.***********/MaajidNawaz/status/753937329836920832/photo/1

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I watched Ross Kemp: The Fight Against Isis the other night.
[YT]/YQrI50f8pxc[/YT]
Kemp traveled to parts of Iraq and Syria only recently taken back from Isis by Kurdish forces.

Some of the stories he got from the people he interviewed were horrific.

One Yazidi mother who's family was captured by ISIS told how her husband was taken away and probably killed. Her 11 year old daughter was taken from her and sold to slavery. She tried to escape with her three remaining children. ISIS caught her, they poisoned her remaining children and took photos to show others what happens if people try to escape. They handed her the body of her baby boy which died in her arms. She did get to see her other two dead children besides the photos.

Kemp visited the liberated ruins of a mostly Yazidi Kurdish town which was destroyed. He found a man who told him ISIS killed his mother in front of him.

I still think America should create a green zone in a Kurdish cities, hold the line there and use them as a base of operations against ISIS.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Sure, I agree, and like I said before I was using it to illustrate the tolerance that's been created around Islam. I'm not saying Liberals want to physically eradicate white supremacists, I'm saying that if given a choice between eradicating white supremacists or radical Islamists the choice from liberals appears to be that racism is a more heinous act than murdering almost a hundred civilians and they'd rather focus on the rednecks.

You've even got reformist Muslims like Maajid Nawaz asking white liberals to stop saying "Islam is not the problem", the same way we can't say that with the Crusades Christianity wasn't the problem. It's at least part of the problem.

America, on the domestic front, has had a bigger problem with white supremacy than it has had with Sharia Law.

We're talking the racial oppression of millions for hundreds of years.

It's kind of the same reason Atheists tend to attack Christians more than Muslims. Because Christian beliefs have been far more influential on a local level (pro-life, anti gay marriage, prayer in schools, etc).

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Just like going into Iraq and Afganistan guns blazing has solved everything. Your ignorance is just baffling. We did exactly what you suggested and it created ****ing ISIS and you want to what, create Super ISIS now?

The thing is if America hurt millions of Muslims to protect thousands of Americans we would become the very thing we despise.

 

[DeadPresident]

America, on the domestic front, has had a bigger problem with white supremacy than it has had with Sharia Law.

We're talking the racial oppression of millions for hundreds of years.

It's kind of the same reason Atheists tend to attack Christians more than Muslims. Because Christian beliefs have been far more influential on a local level (pro-life, anti gay marriage, prayer in schools, etc).

That's a fair point, but those Christian beliefs currently are slaughtering civilians in airports and streets. Those need to be addressed too, but people are far more enthusiastic about their criticisms of Christianity than their criticisms of Islam - while only one is currently involved in instance of violent mass murder. I'm trying to establish why those you call themselves progressive or liberal tend to show this trend.

And I also understand radical and unhealthy Christianity have had more influence Stateside, you're right, but at the same time Islam has subjugated and oppressed millions for hundreds of years too: Their women. Tell an American woman she can't paid as much as a man and it's a social crisis, stone a Muslim woman to death for eloping and it's a social speed bump.

The thing is if America hurt millions of Muslims to protect thousands of Americans we would become the very thing we despise.

Let's not mince words, America has been the thing it claims to despise since its inception - it's a country quite literally founded on genocide, it has no intrinsic moral high ground.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Sure, I agree, and like I said before I was using it to illustrate the tolerance that's been created around Islam. I'm not saying Liberals want to physically eradicate white supremacists, I'm saying that if given a choice between eradicating white supremacists or radical Islamists the choice from liberals appears to be that racism is a more heinous act than murdering almost a hundred civilians and they'd rather focus on the rednecks.

You've even got reformist Muslims like Maajid Nawaz asking white liberals to stop saying "Islam is not the problem", the same way we can't say that with the Crusades Christianity wasn't the problem. It's at least part of the problem.

https://mobile.***********/MaajidNawaz/status/753937329836920832/photo/1

So lets say Liberals demonize an entire religion based on the actions of extremist terrorist?

What comes next?

 

[DeadPresident]

So lets say Liberals demonize an entire religion based on the actions of extremist terrorist?

What comes next?

Demonize? You're jumping to conclusions like Teelie now. I don't see how "Request reform" = Demonize now? Maajid Nawaz and other progressive Muslims are talking about reform, that's what I'm talking about at a social level.

Militarily I'd say the West needs to intervene where there are known ISIS strongholds, where the members are individuals intending to cause harm.

Socially I'd say the West and Islamic nations who enthusiastically claim to be civil need to begin discourse about reforming the religion and what is or isn't taught. You can't have the folk beliefs of Jews and Christians being "monkeys and pigs who were taught to walk on their hind legs" and Sharia Law and slaughtering infidels being a worthy cause propagated and not expect the outcome to be young men and women who despise the West. All religions, but particularly Christianity and Islam need to have their backward conventions revised and eliminated, the Catholic church has attempted to achieve some of that - Islam's centers of knowledge and instruction need to do the same.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

But that isn't the suggestion, is it? It's to kill indiscriminately and without thought. That is what war is and what you are suggesting. That we go to war against ISIS which is really just a poorly covered up holy war on Islam and one that again, can never be won.

When did I say kill indiscriminately? Please, quote the post.

 

[moviedoors]

So lets say Liberals demonize an entire religion based on the actions of extremist terrorist?

OMG, it's like some of you are deliberately misreading what DeadPresident is saying.

This is what we're talking about when we refer to regressive leftists and their attitudes towards Islam. Any attempt to even discuss radical Islam instantly gets distorted into a Trump-like condemnation of all Muslims.

 

[jr24tw]

I don't see much evidence that Liberals want to physically eradicate white supremacists.

The furthest they go is to suppress their freedom of speech with hate laws.

They did just that with a new law in Germany. While the government continues to pay left extremists to demonstrate and to harm they released a law which restricts freedom of speech on the internet. But only if your opinion has a right bend to it. Left can say whatever the hell they want (and do apparently since violent crimes of leftists are much higher than those of right extremists).

 

[DarthSkywalker]

"Your answer was already tried and it failed."

The shock and awe piece of that "answer" worked and we were in the process of helping establish new governments by building infrastructure, supporting and teaching their govt officials how to run democratic governments, and training military to protect.. But then a new US administration took over (running on a ticket that promised hope and change) and completely gutted the sustainment piece of that "answer". So, we pull out preemptively and create a huge vacuum for ISIS to come in and do their thing... Unless we educate and dig in for the long haul AFTER we eradicate, it is a vicious cycle I'm afraid.

This is Obama's fault?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Let's not mince words, America has been the thing it claims to despise since its inception - it's a country quite literally founded on genocide, it has no intrinsic moral high ground.

America used to have legal slavery too. It doesn't mean we can start rounding up Muslims to enslave them.

 

[chamber-music]

You guys do realize ISIS is getting beaten and is losing territory for about six months?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ISIS-loses-ground-caliphate-experts-warn.html
These attacks will become more frequent as they are their only way of lashing out right now.

The air strikes combined with the ground push from the Kurds and Iraqis has been working well the last six months.

The only reason ISIS has not lost even more territory is because the bobby trapping they leave behind slowing down advancements and the civilians they use as human shields.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

This is Obama's fault?

It's actually both Dubya's and Obama's fault.

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/08/bush-clinton-play-blame-game-in-iraq/

But when you consider Bush also overthrew Saddam without an exit strategy he might deserve the lionshare of the blame.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

OMG, it's like some of you are deliberately misreading what DeadPresident is saying.

This is what we're talking about when we refer to regressive leftists and their attitudes towards Islam. Any attempt to even discuss radical Islam instantly gets distorted into a Trump-like condemnation of all Muslims.

I have no problem using the term, "RADICAL MUSLIMS".

It actually makes a distinction between the radical and moderate Muslims.

But after every Liberal agrees that RADICAL MUSLIMS need to be stopped, what next?

Even Bernie Sanders said America needs to unite with the rest of the world to fight ISIS and his followers had no problem with it.

So what exactly are liberals doing wrong in relation to the War on Terror?

It seems like nothing short of saying "Islam is the problem" will satisfy some people. But extremism is the problem, not the entire religion!

So what exactly do you want liberals to say and do??? (keep in mind we have to right to disagree)

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Demonize? You're jumping to conclusions like Teelie now. I don't see how "Request reform" = Demonize now? Maajid Nawaz and other progressive Muslims are talking about reform, that's what I'm talking about at a social level.

Militarily I'd say the West needs to intervene where there are known ISIS strongholds, where the members are individuals intending to cause harm.

Socially I'd say the West and Islamic nations who enthusiastically claim to be civil need to begin discourse about reforming the religion and what is or isn't taught. You can't have the folk beliefs of Jews and Christians being "monkeys and pigs who were taught to walk on their hind legs" and Sharia Law and slaughtering infidels being a worthy cause propagated and not expect the outcome to be young men and women who despise the West. All religions, but particularly Christianity and Islam need to have their backward conventions revised and eliminated, the Catholic church has attempted to achieve some of that - Islam's centers of knowledge and instruction need to do the same.

So Liberals should agree that extremist Muslims should reform themselves to become more moderate and reasonable?

I don't see alot of Liberals opposing that.

But let's not pretend this is what most right wingers are demanding.

Many right wingers want to restrict and profile ALL Muslims, not just the ones on watch lists.

 

[regwec]

I cannot recall ever feeling quite so horrified by accounts of a terrorist attack. It reads like a nightmare.

And then I read this. I suggest you don't, unless you want your weekend spoiled.

Spoiler

https://heatst.com/uk/exclusive-france-suppressed-news-of-gruesome-torture-at-bataclan-massacre/

I was not angry since I came to France
Until this instant. Take a trumpet, herald;
Ride thou unto the horsemen on yon hill:
If they will fight with us, bid them come down,
Or void the field; they do offend our sight.

- Henry V, Act IV, Scene VII

 

[terry78]

I suspect France is seriously about to destroy that ages old gag about them being total surrender monkeys.

 

[DeadPresident]

America used to have legal slavery too. It doesn't mean we can start rounding up Muslims to enslave them.

Who said anything about rounding up Muslims...are you and Teelie on the same stuff?

 

[DeadPresident]

So Liberals should agree that extremist Muslims should reform themselves to become more moderate and reasonable?

I don't see alot of Liberals opposing that.

But let's not pretend this is what most right wingers are demanding.

Many right wingers want to restrict and profile ALL Muslims, not just the ones on watch lists.

And umm...where are the liberals saying that or expressing that point of view...? Because I don't see them calling for that, in fact, I see them doing their level best to avoid this topic altogether.

The liberals and conservatives are both responding to this entire situation with complete incompetence - no measured reaction on either side.

 

[regwec]

I am pissed off that this has become yet another play pen for the Hype's liberal/conservative stereotypes to rehearse their familiar prejudices.

 

[regwec]

This is, I think, a very fair assessment of the predicament facing France and, by extension, us all.