BigThor
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Endgame Endgame User Review Thread (TAG SPOILERS)
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BatofGotham
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6/10
I have a long spoiler-filled explanation for why I think the film is subpar:
I have a long spoiler-filled explanation for why I think the film is subpar:
I've been thinking about the film and I think I finally understand my main gripe with Avengers Endgame.
In my opinion, Avengers Endgame is a superhero film without any real villain.
I really didn't like how they had Thor decapitate 2019 Thanos at the start of the film. I know they provide a logical explanation for why Thanos was weaker and easy to kill (destroying the Infinity Stones damaged 2019 Thanos' body). The reason why I dislike that scene isn't because of it's logic. Rather I think it's a bad decision from a storytelling perspective.
IMO a good superhero film needs a threatening villain that can pose a significant threat to the hero. My favourite superhero films, from The Dark Knight to Avengers Infinity War, all have threatening villains that pose a huge challenge for the superheros. I think competent villains are important because they create a lot of tension in the film. Without a strong villain, a superhero film lacks tension, a sense of danger etc and without these qualities a superhero film doesn't feel very compelling to me.
Ever since Thor decapitates 2019 Thanos, the Avengers don't face any remotely good villains until 2014 Thanos but 2014 Thanos doesn't appear until the third act. The first and second act have no real villain and that's why they lack tension.
Instead the film tries to build tension by having characters doubt themselves which is okay but not enough. I think a better way for the film to create tension is to have characters doubt themselves while also facing an imminent threat from a dangerous villain. Infinity War did this very well with how they had scenes of Iron-Man worrying while also having him thinking of how to stop Thanos. This created a double layer of tension.
However there's nothing like this in Endgame. Iron-Man doubts the time travel plan will work but that's all. There's no huge villain who's coming to get him. It's only in the third act, when 2014 Thanos arrives, does Iron-Man realise that he has a huge villain he has to fight. However by then Hulk has un-done 2018 Thanos' snap. All the superheros have been brought back and we know they'll come to help Iron-Man. Thus that scene doesn't have as much tension as it could have had.
I think a way for the Russo Brothers to up the stakes was to have 2014 Thanos attack before Hulk un-did 2018 Thanos' snap. Suppose 2014 Thanos attacked the base just when Hulk was about to do the snap. Then the blast would seperate Hulk from the gauntlet. Then Hulk would have to race to find the gauntlet before 2014 Thanos could. It would be a race to who would get to do the snap first. I think that would have done a better job of upping the stakes.
In regards to tension, I also think this movie is trying really hard to inorganically force action scenes into the plot. Avengers Endgame is in an odd position. It's a superhero movie so it needs to have action scenes sprinkled throughout its narrative or it might bore the audience. I mean the audience can't wait until the third act for the fight scene. However 2019 Thanos is killed off at the start of the film. Thus the possibility of any kind of battle that 2019 Thanos or his thugs could start with the Avengers is eliminated. However there have to be fight scenes so instead we got unsatisfying fight scenes in the first and second act such as:
1. Hawkeye is hunting down some gangsters in Tokyo. Apparently the death of his family made him very aggressive. However we don't really see Hawkeye's aggression in any other part of the film. When he agrees to return to the Avengers, he goes back to being the same old Hawkeye. It looks like that action scene of Hawkeye killing gangsters was just inserted because Avengers Endgame is a superhero movie and needs action. However there were no villain available so the writers decided to throw in a Japanese mafia.
2. 2023 Captain America fighting 2012 Captain America. This is another fight which I think was only inserted because the movie needed action and no villain was available. In terms of spectacle, this battle wasn't that good. We've already seen superhero vs. superhero in Captain America Civil War. It's true that this time it's Captain America vs. Captain America but honestly, unlike Doctor Strange, Captain America doesn't have an interesting moveset. Seeing two Captain Americas fight each other isn't really that interesting.
3. Hawkeye vs. Natasha is another fight which I think was done just because the movie needed action and no villain was available. This fight feels very repetitive because Hawkeye and Natasha have already fought twice before (Avengers and Captain America Civil War).
Above all this, there are no real stakes to the above battles except Hawkeye vs. Natasha. We know Hawkeye is going to kill the Japanese mafia and we know 2012 Captain America won't be able to stop 2023 Captain America (who's older, wiser etc than his 2012 counterpart). These battles don't seem to be as interesting as the ones in the previous films.
So the above mentioned battles do a poor job of creating tension. I honestly feel like the only reason 2014 Thanos was brought into the future is because the writers knew they had written themselves into a corner. They needed an epic showdown at the end but they killed off 2019 Thanos so the only way they could rectify that was to bring 2014 Thanos as the main antagonist.
However the problem with 2014 Thanos is that he wasn't really built up. The reason Avengers Infinity War was so good was because they built up the threat of Thanos throughout the entire film so when Thanos comes to fight the different groups of Avengers at the end, he has a really strong, intimidating presence. However 2014 Thanos is absent for the first 2/3rd of the film so when he finally does appear he just doesn't have the same kind of presence that Infinity War Thanos had.
I think it would have been a better decision for the writers to keep 2019 Thanos alive and have him be the main villain. However I think the writers really wanted Avengers Endgame to be a time travel movie because time travel was a good way of paying homage to the previous films (Avengers Endgame was intended to be the conclusion to this saga so I can see why the writers wanted to pay homage) and give a good sendoff to the main cast (Iron-Man, Captain America, Thor etc). I think the writers were looking for some excuse to turn Avengers Endgame into a time travel film and having 2019 Thanos destroy the Infinity Stones was the best idea that they could think of.
In regards to tension, I think the movie does try other ways of building it outside of battles. The movie does talk about the dangers of time travel but that's a subject brought up in almost every time travel film. It's a threat that is very difficult to take seriously for even a casual movie goer. If the movie had one of the Avengers lost in time or something due to time travel then the threat might have some weight but atm there isn't much.
Regarding stakes, it's true the Avengers might fail to retrieve the stones but if so then are the consequences really that bad? I mean after 5 year timeskip almost all of them have basically moved on. If they fail to retrieve the stones they can just return to their 2023 lives which aren't that bad. Honestly I think the timeskip ruined the tension the film was trying to build. I think if the movie didn't have a timeskip and we were watching the chaos of a planet with half its population missing then it would have done a better job of conveying why it's so important for the Avengers to succeed in retrieving the stones.
The closest the movie comes to making time travel look dangerous is when Iron-Man loses the Infinity Stone to Loki in 2012. Then Iron-Man and Captain America have to risk going back to 1970 to retrieve the stone. If they fail, then they won't be coming back. However they succeed relatively easily. There's no villain or anything for Iron-Man or Captain America to face in 1970 so that scene also lacks danger and tension.
One last thing I'd like to add is that unlike the previous Marvel films, Avengers Endgame doesn't seem to take any significant degree of inspiration from any of the comics. Avengers Infinity War took a small but significant amount of inspiration from Thanos Quest and Infinity Gauntlet. However for Avengers Endgame, it looks like the writers didn't really try too hard to consult any comic. It looks like they largely wanted to tell their own story.
In my opinion, Avengers Endgame is a superhero film without any real villain.
I really didn't like how they had Thor decapitate 2019 Thanos at the start of the film. I know they provide a logical explanation for why Thanos was weaker and easy to kill (destroying the Infinity Stones damaged 2019 Thanos' body). The reason why I dislike that scene isn't because of it's logic. Rather I think it's a bad decision from a storytelling perspective.
IMO a good superhero film needs a threatening villain that can pose a significant threat to the hero. My favourite superhero films, from The Dark Knight to Avengers Infinity War, all have threatening villains that pose a huge challenge for the superheros. I think competent villains are important because they create a lot of tension in the film. Without a strong villain, a superhero film lacks tension, a sense of danger etc and without these qualities a superhero film doesn't feel very compelling to me.
Ever since Thor decapitates 2019 Thanos, the Avengers don't face any remotely good villains until 2014 Thanos but 2014 Thanos doesn't appear until the third act. The first and second act have no real villain and that's why they lack tension.
Instead the film tries to build tension by having characters doubt themselves which is okay but not enough. I think a better way for the film to create tension is to have characters doubt themselves while also facing an imminent threat from a dangerous villain. Infinity War did this very well with how they had scenes of Iron-Man worrying while also having him thinking of how to stop Thanos. This created a double layer of tension.
However there's nothing like this in Endgame. Iron-Man doubts the time travel plan will work but that's all. There's no huge villain who's coming to get him. It's only in the third act, when 2014 Thanos arrives, does Iron-Man realise that he has a huge villain he has to fight. However by then Hulk has un-done 2018 Thanos' snap. All the superheros have been brought back and we know they'll come to help Iron-Man. Thus that scene doesn't have as much tension as it could have had.
I think a way for the Russo Brothers to up the stakes was to have 2014 Thanos attack before Hulk un-did 2018 Thanos' snap. Suppose 2014 Thanos attacked the base just when Hulk was about to do the snap. Then the blast would seperate Hulk from the gauntlet. Then Hulk would have to race to find the gauntlet before 2014 Thanos could. It would be a race to who would get to do the snap first. I think that would have done a better job of upping the stakes.
In regards to tension, I also think this movie is trying really hard to inorganically force action scenes into the plot. Avengers Endgame is in an odd position. It's a superhero movie so it needs to have action scenes sprinkled throughout its narrative or it might bore the audience. I mean the audience can't wait until the third act for the fight scene. However 2019 Thanos is killed off at the start of the film. Thus the possibility of any kind of battle that 2019 Thanos or his thugs could start with the Avengers is eliminated. However there have to be fight scenes so instead we got unsatisfying fight scenes in the first and second act such as:
1. Hawkeye is hunting down some gangsters in Tokyo. Apparently the death of his family made him very aggressive. However we don't really see Hawkeye's aggression in any other part of the film. When he agrees to return to the Avengers, he goes back to being the same old Hawkeye. It looks like that action scene of Hawkeye killing gangsters was just inserted because Avengers Endgame is a superhero movie and needs action. However there were no villain available so the writers decided to throw in a Japanese mafia.
2. 2023 Captain America fighting 2012 Captain America. This is another fight which I think was only inserted because the movie needed action and no villain was available. In terms of spectacle, this battle wasn't that good. We've already seen superhero vs. superhero in Captain America Civil War. It's true that this time it's Captain America vs. Captain America but honestly, unlike Doctor Strange, Captain America doesn't have an interesting moveset. Seeing two Captain Americas fight each other isn't really that interesting.
3. Hawkeye vs. Natasha is another fight which I think was done just because the movie needed action and no villain was available. This fight feels very repetitive because Hawkeye and Natasha have already fought twice before (Avengers and Captain America Civil War).
Above all this, there are no real stakes to the above battles except Hawkeye vs. Natasha. We know Hawkeye is going to kill the Japanese mafia and we know 2012 Captain America won't be able to stop 2023 Captain America (who's older, wiser etc than his 2012 counterpart). These battles don't seem to be as interesting as the ones in the previous films.
So the above mentioned battles do a poor job of creating tension. I honestly feel like the only reason 2014 Thanos was brought into the future is because the writers knew they had written themselves into a corner. They needed an epic showdown at the end but they killed off 2019 Thanos so the only way they could rectify that was to bring 2014 Thanos as the main antagonist.
However the problem with 2014 Thanos is that he wasn't really built up. The reason Avengers Infinity War was so good was because they built up the threat of Thanos throughout the entire film so when Thanos comes to fight the different groups of Avengers at the end, he has a really strong, intimidating presence. However 2014 Thanos is absent for the first 2/3rd of the film so when he finally does appear he just doesn't have the same kind of presence that Infinity War Thanos had.
I think it would have been a better decision for the writers to keep 2019 Thanos alive and have him be the main villain. However I think the writers really wanted Avengers Endgame to be a time travel movie because time travel was a good way of paying homage to the previous films (Avengers Endgame was intended to be the conclusion to this saga so I can see why the writers wanted to pay homage) and give a good sendoff to the main cast (Iron-Man, Captain America, Thor etc). I think the writers were looking for some excuse to turn Avengers Endgame into a time travel film and having 2019 Thanos destroy the Infinity Stones was the best idea that they could think of.
In regards to tension, I think the movie does try other ways of building it outside of battles. The movie does talk about the dangers of time travel but that's a subject brought up in almost every time travel film. It's a threat that is very difficult to take seriously for even a casual movie goer. If the movie had one of the Avengers lost in time or something due to time travel then the threat might have some weight but atm there isn't much.
Regarding stakes, it's true the Avengers might fail to retrieve the stones but if so then are the consequences really that bad? I mean after 5 year timeskip almost all of them have basically moved on. If they fail to retrieve the stones they can just return to their 2023 lives which aren't that bad. Honestly I think the timeskip ruined the tension the film was trying to build. I think if the movie didn't have a timeskip and we were watching the chaos of a planet with half its population missing then it would have done a better job of conveying why it's so important for the Avengers to succeed in retrieving the stones.
The closest the movie comes to making time travel look dangerous is when Iron-Man loses the Infinity Stone to Loki in 2012. Then Iron-Man and Captain America have to risk going back to 1970 to retrieve the stone. If they fail, then they won't be coming back. However they succeed relatively easily. There's no villain or anything for Iron-Man or Captain America to face in 1970 so that scene also lacks danger and tension.
One last thing I'd like to add is that unlike the previous Marvel films, Avengers Endgame doesn't seem to take any significant degree of inspiration from any of the comics. Avengers Infinity War took a small but significant amount of inspiration from Thanos Quest and Infinity Gauntlet. However for Avengers Endgame, it looks like the writers didn't really try too hard to consult any comic. It looks like they largely wanted to tell their own story.
After watching the movie a second time today, knowing what to expect and accepting the things that disappointed me, the movie has gone up a few points in my book. On second viewing the movie flowed better and didn't seem to drag as much. My ranking has gone from a 6 to 7.5. There's still things that annoy me I cant get over though, IW is still the better movie.
Mr. Peanut
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She doesn't ruin the film, she just hurts it. There was no legitimate narrative reason to have her show up when she did rather than have the characters resolve the problems on their own. It's obvious she was only added to the story because of her gender, especially with the girl power group fight scene they used her for (which, ironically, the OG female Avenger was absent from)
Thanos is barely able to fend her off, but only because she just happens to show up immediately AFTER Thanos gets the Infinity Gauntlet, which he lacked for the vast majority of the movie. Had she shown up a bit sooner she would have one shotted Thanos. The entire premise of the infinity gauntlet saga is basically "Carol could've resolved the problem at nearly any time if she actually felt like protecting her home planet but unfortunately she didn't feel like it. "
As it stands, she does effortlessly one-shot Thanos's warship and tear through his troops. The Avengers were on the verge of being completely overwhelmed before Carol showed up out of nowhere and conveniently made it possible for Tony to grab the infinity stones.
As it stands, she does effortlessly one-shot Thanos's warship and tear through his troops. The Avengers were on the verge of being completely overwhelmed before Carol showed up out of nowhere and conveniently made it possible for Tony to grab the infinity stones.
BringMeThanos
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Lol I like how when Cap Marvel turns up its "convenient".
Yet male Thor just happens to know the Dwarves can build a weapon which can negate the stones and kill Thanos and turns up just as the Wakanda heroes are being overwhelmed and they don't say snip.
Some people really are afraid of women being given big moments, fragile egos.
Yet male Thor just happens to know the Dwarves can build a weapon which can negate the stones and kill Thanos and turns up just as the Wakanda heroes are being overwhelmed and they don't say snip.
Some people really are afraid of women being given big moments, fragile egos.
Just came back and I have to say while not terrible, after the Russo Brothers did such a masterful job on Infinity War, I was left disappointed. I didn't think I would agree with John Campea, that the last hour is the best part of the movie, and it's pretty much the most entertaining part. Most of the first 2 acts drag. I mean they DRAG.
The first mistake is having the heroes kill Thanos almost immediately. This sets up what is inherently bad with the script. After IW, we are expecting this great epic move where the Avengers are going to pick themselves up and find a way to beat the greatest threat in the galaxy. To have them just ambush him on the farm and just kill him is just lazy writing. The second is having time skip 5 years for some reason, when the stakes should be immediate. This wouldn't have been a problem if Thanos was still alive and a threat to the universe.
We then spend the next 2 hours watching Thor act like an overweight drunk fool for some reason, while the rest of the Avengers sit around and do nothing until Scott Lang shows up. The Time Heist goes on way too long. I have to remind you, we've yet to see the Avengers actually doing any Avenging. No attacks from Thanos. No superheroics. Nothing. Just alot of jokes. The time heist sequence is supposed to serve as a love letter to the entire MCU and what came before, but I feel it breaks some of those movies in the process. The Russo Brothers were so caught up in doing this, they forgot to write a plot for this movie.
- After her buildup in IW, Captain Marvel was wasted. She should've been with the rest of the Avengers the whole movie. (Her costume and new hairstyle sucked too)
- Thanos was also a let down in this. He was barely, the menacing threat he was in IW until the last act, because apparently they forgot to write a villain for this movie.
- Too many jokes and buffoonery in the time heist sequence.
The best part of this movie was the final battle. It was what I came to see. It's a shame it took so long to get there,but all in all, this was a step back from the Russo's previous work. I didn't hate it but it should've been alot better. 6/10 for me.
The first mistake is having the heroes kill Thanos almost immediately. This sets up what is inherently bad with the script. After IW, we are expecting this great epic move where the Avengers are going to pick themselves up and find a way to beat the greatest threat in the galaxy. To have them just ambush him on the farm and just kill him is just lazy writing. The second is having time skip 5 years for some reason, when the stakes should be immediate. This wouldn't have been a problem if Thanos was still alive and a threat to the universe.
We then spend the next 2 hours watching Thor act like an overweight drunk fool for some reason, while the rest of the Avengers sit around and do nothing until Scott Lang shows up. The Time Heist goes on way too long. I have to remind you, we've yet to see the Avengers actually doing any Avenging. No attacks from Thanos. No superheroics. Nothing. Just alot of jokes. The time heist sequence is supposed to serve as a love letter to the entire MCU and what came before, but I feel it breaks some of those movies in the process. The Russo Brothers were so caught up in doing this, they forgot to write a plot for this movie.
- After her buildup in IW, Captain Marvel was wasted. She should've been with the rest of the Avengers the whole movie. (Her costume and new hairstyle sucked too)
- Thanos was also a let down in this. He was barely, the menacing threat he was in IW until the last act, because apparently they forgot to write a villain for this movie.
- Too many jokes and buffoonery in the time heist sequence.
The best part of this movie was the final battle. It was what I came to see. It's a shame it took so long to get there,but all in all, this was a step back from the Russo's previous work. I didn't hate it but it should've been alot better. 6/10 for me.
Mr. Peanut
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No. This is so wrong it hurts.
Thor was given all the build-up in the world, and was a major character in the narrative. It also makes sense that the person who built the infinity gauntlet could make something capable of stopping it. It wasn't just a convenient coincidence. Also, in order to obtain this weapon, Thor had to endure a literal trial by fire.
And yet, even after all that, his new weapon didn't end up saving anyone. Thanos won. Thor failed. If Thor hadn't shown up, the outcome would be the same.
Meanwhile, Captain Marvel shows up out of nowhere and saves Tony from imminent death (allowing the main plot to happen at all). She then disappears for most of the movie and only shows up again out of nowhere to stop Thanos from winning when he is on the verge of victory. Without Captain Marvel, Thanos's warship blows everyone to hell and back. With Captain Marvel, Thanos's warship pops like a pinata.
It baffles me that people are always making these kinds of comparisons. You don't think I want the MCU to have good female heroes? If the MCU was to my preference, we'd have at least a third to half of the films starring women, with them having organic roles in the narrative and their powerlevels balanced to the needs of the narrative, just like the men. Instead we have an MCU that mostly ignores women for the bulk of its existence and then acts like it's the most progressive thing ever when it forces a female OP deux ex machina into the tail end of its story.
Thor was given all the build-up in the world, and was a major character in the narrative. It also makes sense that the person who built the infinity gauntlet could make something capable of stopping it. It wasn't just a convenient coincidence. Also, in order to obtain this weapon, Thor had to endure a literal trial by fire.
And yet, even after all that, his new weapon didn't end up saving anyone. Thanos won. Thor failed. If Thor hadn't shown up, the outcome would be the same.
Meanwhile, Captain Marvel shows up out of nowhere and saves Tony from imminent death (allowing the main plot to happen at all). She then disappears for most of the movie and only shows up again out of nowhere to stop Thanos from winning when he is on the verge of victory. Without Captain Marvel, Thanos's warship blows everyone to hell and back. With Captain Marvel, Thanos's warship pops like a pinata.
It baffles me that people are always making these kinds of comparisons. You don't think I want the MCU to have good female heroes? If the MCU was to my preference, we'd have at least a third to half of the films starring women, with them having organic roles in the narrative and their powerlevels balanced to the needs of the narrative, just like the men. Instead we have an MCU that mostly ignores women for the bulk of its existence and then acts like it's the most progressive thing ever when it forces a female OP deux ex machina into the tail end of its story.
Abudefduf
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Captain Marvel doesn't ruin Endgame but she's pretty much nothing more than a plot device in it.
She deserved better.
She gets no characterization and no significant interactions with the Avengers, all she does is show up at the beginning and then at the end to get the other characters out of trouble.
I was hoping this movie would show her bonding with her future teammates and earning her place as their leader, but nope. Nothing.
I was hoping this movie would show her bonding with her future teammates and earning her place as their leader, but nope. Nothing.
She deserved better.
TheFuture
Valar Dohaeris
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I enjoyed it and would give 8/10 as opposed to Infinity War which is a 9/10 for me....having said that the only reason I have them ranked like that is because IW had the advantage of the unknown whereas we roughly knew what Endgame was going to do. I'll give a few pros and cons.
Pros:
Cons:
They would be the only negative comments I would make. As a comparison to The Dark Knight Rises, there's always going to be little annoyances that can't be helped when trying to sow up a narrative lasting years. Both films suffered from this but not to the extent that it left me unhappy.
Pros:
1. Robert Downey Jr - what a magnificent way to go out and I'm really going to miss him. He's left big shoes to fill. The look between Tony and Strange as Tony realises what needs to be done and the final I am Iron Man nearly got me going.
2. Scarlett Johannson - ran RDJ a close second in the performance stakes. Really wonderful job.
3. The sling rings opening and Cap saying it.
4. Josh Brolin - another brilliant portrayal and played Thanos much more straightforward in the villain stakes. Made watching him die TWICE all the more satisfying.
2. Scarlett Johannson - ran RDJ a close second in the performance stakes. Really wonderful job.
3. The sling rings opening and Cap saying it.
4. Josh Brolin - another brilliant portrayal and played Thanos much more straightforward in the villain stakes. Made watching him die TWICE all the more satisfying.
Cons:
1. Cap's send off - thought they could have been a bit more creative on this one and it just left me cold. I did like the look between Bucky and Cap before the latter time jumped - I think deep down Bucky knew Cap wasn't coming back. All that being said I thought Evans was very good especially in leading the charge.
2. Time travel - just didn't do it for me but I always knew that it wouldn't appeal to me. Makes the second act a bit of a test.
2. Time travel - just didn't do it for me but I always knew that it wouldn't appeal to me. Makes the second act a bit of a test.
They would be the only negative comments I would make. As a comparison to The Dark Knight Rises, there's always going to be little annoyances that can't be helped when trying to sow up a narrative lasting years. Both films suffered from this but not to the extent that it left me unhappy.
8ulk87
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Cap lifting mjolnir and kicking Thanos ass with it made the whole movie for me. Its the highlight of the highlights for me.
I was waiting for Steve to lift mjolnir since Age of Ultron and i was really dissapointed he didnt get to do it in Infinity War.
Other cool stuff were Proffesor Hulk , Capt Marvel , the whole 3rd act.
I have mixed feelings though. I didnt want this to end.
I was waiting for Steve to lift mjolnir since Age of Ultron and i was really dissapointed he didnt get to do it in Infinity War.
Other cool stuff were Proffesor Hulk , Capt Marvel , the whole 3rd act.
I have mixed feelings though. I didnt want this to end.
Holy Slapper
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Willi Berg
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I would say I am a casual fan of Marvel movies. I have watched all the Avengers movies and most of the MCU movies. I don't know all the intricate details like a superfan but I know enough. I don't have huge expectations or anticipation for them, I just go and watch them.
I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed this movie. I was quite moved at times and felt very satisfied at the end and felt a strong sense of closure.
These parts were highlights for me:
I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed this movie. I was quite moved at times and felt very satisfied at the end and felt a strong sense of closure.
These parts were highlights for me:
Captain America with Thor's hammer. This was such a huge surprise and I was unexpectedly the most moved by it. I had heard a bit about it from the comics. But it was such a great moment.
I liked the conclusions to Tony's and Steve's stories. Tony's was very fitting, as was Steve's, though Steve's was a little more abrupt. But it was a nice ending for his movies.
The time travel did tend to halt some of the momentum, as it jumped to different stories. But it was a nice way to revisit the old stories/movies. I agree with those that say there wasn't as much tension anymore, or that there wasn't a strong presence of a villain. But what was at stake was getting the world back to where it once was, and bringing the people back, including the major heroes. That might not be enough tension for some, but I enjoyed it for the most part.
I liked the slow and deliberate pace to explore some of the main characters in the early scenes. There was little of the usual superheroics for a while but I liked it.
Seeing the world half empty and survivors coping was interesting, I wish they showed more of it.
Sure sometimes there felt like some plot convenience or a superhero may seem less powerful than usual so another hero can help. Or a hero is not present until the last minute etc. But that's kind of expected in team up movies.
I am not sure what to expect from the next phase, with younger or different heroes, but I am interested in seeing what happens. I will probably continue to watch the solos that interest me and watch all the team ups.
I liked the conclusions to Tony's and Steve's stories. Tony's was very fitting, as was Steve's, though Steve's was a little more abrupt. But it was a nice ending for his movies.
The time travel did tend to halt some of the momentum, as it jumped to different stories. But it was a nice way to revisit the old stories/movies. I agree with those that say there wasn't as much tension anymore, or that there wasn't a strong presence of a villain. But what was at stake was getting the world back to where it once was, and bringing the people back, including the major heroes. That might not be enough tension for some, but I enjoyed it for the most part.
I liked the slow and deliberate pace to explore some of the main characters in the early scenes. There was little of the usual superheroics for a while but I liked it.
Seeing the world half empty and survivors coping was interesting, I wish they showed more of it.
Sure sometimes there felt like some plot convenience or a superhero may seem less powerful than usual so another hero can help. Or a hero is not present until the last minute etc. But that's kind of expected in team up movies.
I am not sure what to expect from the next phase, with younger or different heroes, but I am interested in seeing what happens. I will probably continue to watch the solos that interest me and watch all the team ups.
Holy Slapper
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Ahmm, Thanos kicked his ass in the end. If not for every one else arriving, he would died first.
Willi Berg
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It was
a bummer that Thanos defeated him in that fight. I think the great moment was that Steve could actually wield the hammer.
Mr. Peanut
Sidekick
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I was totally looking forward to seeing her have a friendly rivalry with Thor. All they had to do was give her balanced powers on a similar level to Thor's (she could even still be a little more powerful, if they're really hellbent on it, just not on a completely separate league) and have her team up with Thor and Rocket when they go to Asgard. That would have been a great chance to give her some development and actually endear her to us.
Charzhin0
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Probably will need a rewatch but I give it 8/10.
General non-spoiler thoughts:
I think it was too long. Lot of scenes could have been trimmed in the opening 1.5hrs. Movies loses some momemtun during the mid-point. I thought they began to joke and quip too much for my liking after the 1st hour.
Positives are the action when it happens is glorious. One of my criticisms in IW was the Wakanda battle could have been executed much better and here the Russos improved upon it. Also liked a lot how much the focus was on the original Avengers .
General non-spoiler thoughts:
I think it was too long. Lot of scenes could have been trimmed in the opening 1.5hrs. Movies loses some momemtun during the mid-point. I thought they began to joke and quip too much for my liking after the 1st hour.
Positives are the action when it happens is glorious. One of my criticisms in IW was the Wakanda battle could have been executed much better and here the Russos improved upon it. Also liked a lot how much the focus was on the original Avengers .
Abudefduf
Superhero
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Yeah that's what I wanted as well. And apparently some of that did happen
(her and Rhodey seemed to be on good terms in that hologram scene)
HammerDown
“The Wasteland's Golden Rule”
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Just came out of the theatre.
I liked it. Rating: 8 out of 10
Don’t think it cracks me MCU Top 5 though.
I liked it. Rating: 8 out of 10
Don’t think it cracks me MCU Top 5 though.
KaijuDude1992
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I can't really tell how I'm going to feel until I see the movie, but it sounds like they go in directions not a lot were expecting or wanting and that is what is causing these mixed reactions. Honestly, it does sound very similar to what Johnson did with TLJ, although maybe not as extreme. I'll just have to wait to see it for myself to judge, but its going to be an interesting experience nonetheless.
Mr. Peanut
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Yeah it does sort of have a TLJ-lite kind of feel. Not as extreme as TLJ, but sort of the same flavor of purposely defying expectations...
Oh boy this movie. I have so many thoughts on it.
I'll start by saying as an emotional payoff to some of these characters(one in particular I'll expand on in the spoiler tag) the movie pretty much nails it imo. The theme of family that has been built up throughout these movies over the past 10 or so years genuinely comes through in this movie and they did a great job of doing that in a movie dealing with that many moving parts. As a result the emotional payoff at the end really works and you can leave with a satisfying feeling.
With that said, unfortunately as a movie its pretty messy narratively and structurally. So many character arcs feel shortchanged from their previous movies, so many plot holes/conveniences, there are times where it feels events happen too quickly from one to the other while other times the scenes feel dragged for too long where it didn't need to be making the pacing feel all over the place. Any sense of tension is pretty much gone from the movie from the start and by the end it feels like a movie where you're just going through the motions with the characters till it finishes with a big battle.
I'm at a place where on one hand the emotional pay off especially of a certain character, quiet character moments and theme of family worked for me while pretty much everything else of it as a movie I felt was poorly done. It's a movie that seems to be relying on the audience's connection to these characters through the years and nostalgia to carry through what is in truth a tonally and structurally messy one which is all over the place.
If it works for you emotionally then It can paper over the many cracks of the movie and while that may have been for me, I still couldn't look past its problems and though I could be wrong I feel its a movie where time may not be kind to and once the emotional high dies off in years the many issues will become more evident. It would be similar to how some revised their opinion on the first avengers(still in my top 5 mcu) when looking back on it realising how slow the first act is but I feel it may be the case but tenfold with this movie when it's looked back on. My rating as a result is 5 which is a shame as I really wanted to love it as a movie as much as most seem to but at the end it became one where only a few things worked for me.
I'll start by saying as an emotional payoff to some of these characters(one in particular I'll expand on in the spoiler tag) the movie pretty much nails it imo. The theme of family that has been built up throughout these movies over the past 10 or so years genuinely comes through in this movie and they did a great job of doing that in a movie dealing with that many moving parts. As a result the emotional payoff at the end really works and you can leave with a satisfying feeling.
With that said, unfortunately as a movie its pretty messy narratively and structurally. So many character arcs feel shortchanged from their previous movies, so many plot holes/conveniences, there are times where it feels events happen too quickly from one to the other while other times the scenes feel dragged for too long where it didn't need to be making the pacing feel all over the place. Any sense of tension is pretty much gone from the movie from the start and by the end it feels like a movie where you're just going through the motions with the characters till it finishes with a big battle.
So the positives
- The theme of family throughout the movie worked for me. From how people deal with the loss of family and what it means to be family. This was especially evident with Tony, Clint and Scott whose arcs I felt were the best done in the movie.
- The arc of Tony though was by far the best in the movie and counting all his movies one of the best story arcs for any character I can think of ever. They really nailed him in this movie and RDJ was perfect. The fact that despite having his family and everything he ever wanted he still couldn't let go and tried to fix things was the most truest to character of anyone in the movie. He was the emotional anchor of the movie(not cap) and I couldn't think of a more perfect way to end his journey
- The quiet character moments were the best scenes in the movie for me. Tony and pepper having that chat in his home right before he decided to help the avengers was probably my favourite scene and pretty much nailed who he was as a character. There were others like it but that was the main one that stood out to me.
- The final battle scene did feel as epic as a scene like that should given the amount of characters and they did a great job of balancing and giving almost everyone their time to shine. I also loved them trying to keep the gauntlet away from thanos and his army as it injected some tension and fun to the final battle rather than it just being whoever defeats the other in battle wins.
- The structure and pacing of the movie just felt off to me. By the first 30 minutes of the movie captain marvel had already joined the group(not shown) and decided to rescue tony from space back to earth, the avengers find where Thanos is and decide to go after him, They defeat him and we're back on earth 5 years later, Scott is suddenly released from the quantum realm by a rat and finds the avengers and informs them of time travel and then they decide to recruit everyone back to get the stones from the past. All these key events happen during the first 30 minutes which I guess you can chalk it off to them having too much to get through so they had to rush some story points, but then the whole of the next 30 minutes is spent on their recruitment of the other characters. In that time there are a couple of unnecessary scenes of humour mainly with thor that go on way longer than should and the movie really drags during those 30 minutes. So you have a movie where everything seems to happen too quickly for the first 30 minutes and then for the next 30 after everything seems to drag slowly with forced humour in almost every scene.
- Practically anything with the time travel felt so contrived to me and leaned too much on fan service that it took me out the movie. This was the next hour of the movie and its the part where I was mostly going through the motions and at that point waiting for any tension or something important that moved the plot forward to happen. The only parts of this that mildly worked for me were the parts with thanos/nebula and Tony running into his father. While there were some nice easter eggs and fan service things with tony and cap, I honestly didn't care much for it at that point.
- The character arc of Thor and pretty much everything done with him throughout the movie didn't work for me. Outside of the moment where he comes in and saves everyone in wakanda these past 2 avengers movies have not done him and his arc any service at all and basically retconned him. So he goes through an arc in Ragnarok where he learns that it's not the hammer that makes him who he is and he already has that power in him so he loses it and the movie ends with him leading his people and learning that asgard is not a place but a people. The next two movies he's reverted back to someone useless without a weapon and ends as one who forsakes all responsibility to his people and decides to basically do what he wants. Making him a drunk guy who didn't care about nothing because of his failure to stop thanos the first time would've worked if he then either ends the movie being the one who brings everyone back, defeats thanos and his army or decides to make sure to protect his people from anything bad happening to them again. Instead we have a scenario where cap also becomes worthy of the hammer so his one speciality is not unique to him anymore, hulk is the one to bring everyone back, Tony is the one to defeat thanos and his army at the end and he leaves his responsibility of looking after his people to Valkyrie so he can roam around with the guardians. He's basically become someone who's just really powerful and nothing else and the more I think about it the worse it gets honestly. They really done this character out of all the originals the most disservice
- As a result of the movie becoming about tony's arc and cap's to a lesser extent, the likes of widow and banner also get shortchanged here. Banner becomes professor hulk and someone apparently with the brains and brawn to match except it was tony who is still the brains and really made the time machine work and pretty much every other character was more useful than him in the final battle. Like thor these two movies have not done the character much justice at all. As for widow, I'm sorry but both her death and sacrifice never felt earned for me. she's the one who lost the least out of the original characters as far as any attachments to people lost with the snap as pretty much everyone she cared most about survived, yet we're meant to believe she is the one finding it the hardest to move on so much that she is willing to sacrifice herself for it.
- Plot conveniences/holes- There's so many things with the time travel that are either poorly explained or not well shown in the movie that you could pick so many holes in. Cap appearing old at the end of the movie though was probably the icing on the cake for me with it. Same for the plot conveniences which as always is to be expected with these types of movies and I would normally look past most of it but this movie took it to a whole other level. Not least the entire fate of the universe being saved because a rat somehow miraculously managed to press a button to let Scott out the quantum realm(yeah I'm not making this up).
I'm at a place where on one hand the emotional pay off especially of a certain character, quiet character moments and theme of family worked for me while pretty much everything else of it as a movie I felt was poorly done. It's a movie that seems to be relying on the audience's connection to these characters through the years and nostalgia to carry through what is in truth a tonally and structurally messy one which is all over the place.
If it works for you emotionally then It can paper over the many cracks of the movie and while that may have been for me, I still couldn't look past its problems and though I could be wrong I feel its a movie where time may not be kind to and once the emotional high dies off in years the many issues will become more evident. It would be similar to how some revised their opinion on the first avengers(still in my top 5 mcu) when looking back on it realising how slow the first act is but I feel it may be the case but tenfold with this movie when it's looked back on. My rating as a result is 5 which is a shame as I really wanted to love it as a movie as much as most seem to but at the end it became one where only a few things worked for me.
Got out of the film a couple of hours ago.
An absolute triumph.
I laughed, I cried, I laughed again, I cried again. And again. And again. I was a mess by the end of it. 11 years and all the emotional buildup and I got the payoff I wanted.
The film goes above a 5/5 or 10/10 for me. Just can’t explain how good it was.
The Russo’s have outdone themselves once again. Bravo.
An absolute triumph.
I laughed, I cried, I laughed again, I cried again. And again. And again. I was a mess by the end of it. 11 years and all the emotional buildup and I got the payoff I wanted.
The film goes above a 5/5 or 10/10 for me. Just can’t explain how good it was.
The Russo’s have outdone themselves once again. Bravo.
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