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Comics Enough crying, lets take our fight to Joey Q!

Which is the problem... according to JMS, Joe Q said " It's magic, we don't have to explain it." I think that is what frustrated him.

Actually, JMS attributes that line to a monolithic "Marvel", not Quesada specifically.

USMC said:
I think this whole "ages the character" excuse that has been shoved down fans throats is asinine and ridiculous. It's just a lame excuse to push an agenda.

Yes, and that agenda is to keep the character as marketable as possible. If you evolve the character too much--through age, supporting cast members dying, etc--then the book becomes virtually unrecognizable to new readers.
 
Yeah I love these retcons that are done to simplify things, but if you started after the retcon sooner or later you have to read it for things to make sense. And it's not like a casual reader is provided with footnotes to know to track these down.

Kind of like how new readers to DC are lost without first reading Infinite Crisis, and Zero Hour. Probably Infinite Crisis and 52, and Countdown along with the several spin off minis. Marvel seems like they're heading down this path with OMD/BND.

And you must have a stronger stomach than me to be able to stand Zeb Wells.

LOL...I'm guess you read that 3 personalities of sand man story in Peter Parker a while back eh? It's ok. his arc in BND was surprisingly good...
 
The most boring part to me about Peter Parker has been his relationships.
He always gave it a shot and it always failed. over and over and over and over again.
countless names of females from liz allen to felicia hardy. all the same story. different scenarios.
The marriage gave the story of spidey a big plus for me. it lost that repetitiveness. of him always ending up one way or another breaking up with the female of the month.
and peter is the hard luck hero. sooooo much crap has happened. but at the end of the day he still had this amazing person to come home to and talk to.

we all have that...
be it a mother, a wife, a girlfriend. or whatever the case is. Pete is an orphan....and the things that bother him, he can no longer discuss with anyone. thats just about as "unrelatable" as you can get.
 
And it's not like a casual reader is provided with footnotes to know to track these down.

Actually in the older days of comics (when I was far younger), they used to have what were called "editors notes" They usually detailed something that isn't currently explained or gives you issue numbers to find out what events led to a current situation. Now this one you can blame on Joe Q. He banned editors notes from being shown in Marvel Comics.
 
The most boring part to me about Peter Parker has been his relationships.
He always gave it a shot and it always failed. over and over and over and over again.
countless names of females from liz allen to felicia hardy. all the same story. different scenarios.
The marriage gave the story of spidey a big plus for me. it lost that repetitiveness. of him always ending up one way or another breaking up with the female of the month.
and peter is the hard luck hero. sooooo much crap has happened. but at the end of the day he still had this amazing person to come home to and talk to.

Actually, not every female that Peter interacted with wound up not working out for some simple reason. Debrah Whitman liked Peter but Peter found her to be too bookish (which was ironic). He never got anywhere with Felica because she was attracted to Spider-Man, not to Peter. And for Peter, that is a problem. The only thing that happens with Mary Jane is her continued worry about his safety and Peter's worry that his enemies will discover that she is married to him. There are actually far more options if he is dating different women. Each woman brings her own complications or successes.
 
And it's not like a casual reader is provided with footnotes to know to track these down.

Actually in the older days of comics (when I was far younger), they used to have what were called "editors notes" They usually detailed something that isn't currently explained or gives you issue numbers to find out what events led to a current situation. Now this one you can blame on Joe Q. He banned editors notes from being shown in Marvel Comics.

Actually, even more ironic is that it seems that starting WITH BND we are seeing the return of those editor's notes. So yeah, they ARE provided now with footnotes to know to track these down.

:)
 
Actually, not every female that Peter interacted with wound up not working out for some simple reason. Debrah Whitman liked Peter but Peter found her to be too bookish (which was ironic). He never got anywhere with Felica because she was attracted to Spider-Man, not to Peter. And for Peter, that is a problem. The only thing that happens with Mary Jane is her continued worry about his safety and Peter's worry that his enemies will discover that she is married to him. There are actually far more options if he is dating different women. Each woman brings her own complications or successes.

You neglect this part of the whole concept my friend. :woot:
Even if the reason was different...be it Deborah, Betty, Felicia.
All of those relationships inevitably came to a close.
And we all knew it would. it was just a recycled formula.

I'm a bit on the young side to be married. but I have been strongly involved with a female and if anything it brings new situations to the table. much more than being single would. you meet her family. she wants to involve you in everything when your close. whenever I wasn't going steady I'd see the girl once and a while and half the time people didn't even know I had a girlfriend or not. same thing about being married. life doesn't stop.
if anything it brings more drama. and you dont have to be unfaithful to have drama in a relationship.

The peak of Spidey's career was the mcfarlane era. sales were the highest I believe and Peter was married. Mj had a life. she didn't stick around and was annoyingly written. she knew what she was getting into and it didn't stop her daily routines.

Using Peter's marriage as an excuse was lazy writing. because it opens up a whole new avenue that was barely explored except for a few exceptions. such as the time aunt anna figured peter was cheating on Mj. think of all of Mj's family that was interesting and barely tapped on. we won't get this with any other female he dates. and if we do it'll be limited to what they could pull of with Mj. Peter has always been about finding that one female. he's never been the kind of guy that dates numerous women like Tony stark.

After Mj anyone he dates will fall in comparison. especially since in every form of media that he's written into she has been shown as the girl he cares about most. the one he's destined to be with.
 
I'd also like to point out that nobody remembers things in the way you're implying; that's not how memory works. You don't map out every one of your memories since birth onto a piece of paper and then look at what's missing and try to investigate how/why that memory was erased.
A question that I don't think was answered: If the unmasking still happened, but no one remembers it, what happened to all the print references to Peter being Spider-Man? I mean, clearly SOMEONE had to write it down.

Was there ever an explination given besides "magic" or "wait" ?
 
I would imagine it's somewhere between wait and never. It doesn't really matter to me.
 
A question that I don't think was answered: If the unmasking still happened, but no one remembers it, what happened to all the print references to Peter being Spider-Man? I mean, clearly SOMEONE had to write it down.

Was there ever an explination given besides "magic" or "wait" ?

"It's magic....we don't have to explain it"

there's your answer. further more to that question that no one seems to bring up.

why doesn't peter question that event? I Unmask and suddenly no one remembers?
we've seen him go all pessimistic about smaller things...and sense unmasking for him is one of the things peter parker shalt not do. it's weird that he never questions it.
 
MJ's family seems diversionary. I suppose they could have "surprise of the week" stories when somebody in her family figures out he is Spider-Man...but that is limited and ultimately does not contribute to a greater legacy. Her characters presence is nice and historical but her abscence no more detracts from the story anymore than her presence contributed to it. I mean that whole Lobster Man movie/Doc Ock storyline by JMS was a waste. It resulted in Peter and MJ getting back together, but that story was largely inconsequential. Especially compared to more serious tales such as Ezikiel and Morlun. In scope, MJ was just a novelty. Not an actual contribution.
 
MJ's family seems diversionary. I suppose they could have "surprise of the week" stories when somebody in her family figures out he is Spider-Man...but that is limited and ultimately does not contribute to a greater legacy. Her characters presence is nice and historical but her abscence no more detracts from the story anymore than her presence contributed to it. I mean that whole Lobster Man movie/Doc Ock storyline by JMS was a waste. It resulted in Peter and MJ getting back together, but that story was largely inconsequential. Especially compared to more serious tales such as Ezikiel and Morlun. In scope, MJ was just a novelty. Not an actual contribution.

Mj was essential in Kraven's last hunt or Peter would be dead.
Once again it all rests in the power of the writer. Bringing back Bucky was a initially a bad decision. But Ed Brubaker did an excellent job. It shows when a writer gives something serious thought they can pull of just about anything. Not only was bucky brought back....but Jason todd was at the SAME time. thats 2 dead side kicks retconned and Brubaker still pulled it off well.

Having Mj's family figure out Peter is Spidey every week is not necessary. lol.
but exploring her character and past could have made for some interesting subplots. Whether people like it or not she's a staple in the spidey mythos. every form of media shows it.
Now we have Spidey girlfriend of the week. We're back to the same recycled plot of him not being able to work things out because of Spider-man getting in the way. There just hiding behind the marriage as an excuse when it really has nothing to do with the over all picture. The mcfarlane days was the peek of spideys career. and all of those stories had a married peter. It shows that marvel is making an excuse for there lack of creativeness these days....
 
Well that would be true about the "girlfriend of the week" but in all honesty that is making one very large assumption. That assumption, is that Peter has to get into a relationship at all. He can stay single, turn gay, get married to somebody else that isn't Mary Jane, become asexual. There are a host of options that he can turn to now, that wouldn't have existed with Mary Jane (at least not without still pissing off fans). As for being saved by Mary Jane, that could have been any other well written character who could step in to save the day.

And bringing back side kicks isn't the same. Side kicks are independent people. They start out under the shadow of their mentors, but all worty side kicks have gone past their mentors to either take the mantle or to evolve their own persona. This included Bucky (Winter Soldier) Kid Flash (Wally West Flash) Robin (Nightwing) Robin (Red Hood) Roy (Arsenal) Wonder Girl (Donna Troy). They didn't grow up and stay side kicks. Do you see how Mary Jane is stifled where as a side kick supporting character isn't? Mary Jane can not elevate beyond the role of wife. A side kick can quit or become a hero. A wife can get divorced (which would still leave Peter single) or stay a wife (which introduces nothing new...status quo).

What could Mary Jane do to contribute to the story? Become a successful model? She had been doing that since I was 6 years old. Break into hollywood? Sure it's great for her, but it doesn't make Spider-Man more fun to read. Become a mom? Nothing like making Peter worry so bad he decides to quit being Spider-Man (oh wait, that already happened). Be Spidey's confident? He has a few allies who know his identity now. So she isn't unique. I think nostalgia has gotten the better of people in this situation. People are just used to her. Some comic fans are like pack rats. They just keep a hold of everything they collect without letting go of it. They leave it in their garage or attic or basement despite knowing that what they are holding on to has over stayed its welcome..

Having the most noble yet human Marvel hero, barter with the devil, is absolutely disgraceful. If they could redo this story another way, i'd love to see it happen. But to think that Spider-Man book is some how hurt by a character who hasn't been useful for the past decade, is just nostalgia. When Peter was single, his life as Peter was just as fun to read as his life as Spider-Man. Different dates, the demands of his low profile job as photographer. Trying to balance his normal life with his super hero life created such a deep dynamic. It added to his struggle. Spider-Man's struggles led to Peter's struggles.

Mary-Jane as a wife expects Peter to be hurt, expects him to be out late and often. He doesn't have to explain to Mary Jane why he couldn't make a dinner date...she'll see it on the evening news. And even when she got tired of having to compete for Peter's attention, with Spider-Man, she still wound up coming back and returning to the same cycle. You have been reading a routine for decades and you just don't realize it. I don't like change anymore than the next person. It isn't human nature. We prefer consistency. But in this case, it isn't as terrible as people have made it out to be.
 
MJ was essential in Kraven's last hunt or Peter would be dead.

I never understand this comment...

If Peter was so in love with Mary Jane, and that "love" is what helped him dig his way out of the grave, what difference does it make if he's married or not, when you're in "love"?

I know LOTS of people that have been fantastic couples/lovers for DECADES... and have far better "loving" relationships than most married couples I know.

Saying Peter would be dead as a result of him being "not married" to MJ in the death of Kraven story is simply put: a stupid thing to say.

:whatever: :whatever: :whatever:

For the record Styleshift. I'm not attacking you personally... I like your well thought out polite posts... it's just one of those comments that MANY people have said since BND commenced.

:yay:
 
Exactly. Just because he isn't with Mary Jane, doesn't mean he can't love somebody else. Doesn't even mean he can't love Mary Jane. Just means that he won't be married to her.
 
Here's another idea; why don't we start an online campaign that doesn't have to do with petitions. I'm assuming - hoping, really - that said creative team probably visits these online forums to read the reactions of fans like us. But when they do, it's likely that they get mixed ideas; one person says "Wow, Marvel is going down the toilet", and another says "Oh well, don't read then. It's their company".

I can post every so often that I very much dislike the current storylines, but that's a one-time thing by some random person on the internet. And for every one of me, there's another who says "Wow, look at that artwork. Good job Marvel" and lists their favorite current titles in their sigs - including ASM and associated books.

So, sigs is the way to go. If we really want to make an impression, we should say that we disapprove of the direction of the comics. Every one of us like-minded people, all with the same message and purpose. If there's even the slightest chance that Marvel will visit these boards and see 3, 5, 20 people in the same thread with something like 'Marvel Fans for Change - disapproving of Marvel's direction since (insert issue here)' in their sigs and stop to think about what they may be doing for their former fans feeling betrayed... it may be worth it.

Ah heck, I'm starting a separate thread for this.
 
I never understand this comment...

If Peter was so in love with Mary Jane, and that "love" is what helped him dig his way out of the grave, what difference does it make if he's married or not, when you're in "love"?

I know LOTS of people that have been fantastic couples/lovers for DECADES... and have far better "loving" relationships than most married couples I know.

Saying Peter would be dead as a result of him being "not married" to MJ in the death of Kraven story is simply put: a stupid thing to say.

:whatever: :whatever: :whatever:

For the record Styleshift. I'm not attacking you personally... I like your well thought out polite posts... it's just one of those comments that MANY people have said since BND commenced.

:yay:

Same here pal. I like your posts as well....you never flame people needlessly and I definitely appreciate that.

I really believe that seeing the marriage dissolved sucks so much because I grew up with it. While it was rushed...it still made logical sense. Mj was his best friend at the time. She was someone who had been around for YEARS and someone that really cared about him.

She's been there for him for 20 years.
OMD was a crappy way to send it off...

I really felt cheated dude. they gave us YEARS of crappy stories under JMS' tenure and we all know he's a fantastic writer. I still supported them after the spidey stingers. and they turn around and give us a extra priced zero star story. like I mentioned with Bucky. as long as the writer is good...we can believe anything. :yay:

Its hard looking at BND and NOT remember OMD. especially since there are alot of stories that are a bit screwed up now. such as Spidey and Normie Osborn's interactions. They blame there bad writing on Mj. but they gave her waaay too much focus. she didn't need to be in EVERY story. I guess at the end of it all thats my real problem with OMD. Marvel's integrity.
 
Here's another idea; why don't we start an online campaign that doesn't have to do with petitions. I'm assuming - hoping, really - that said creative team probably visits these online forums to read the reactions of fans like us. But when they do, it's likely that they get mixed ideas; one person says "Wow, Marvel is going down the toilet", and another says "Oh well, don't read then. It's their company".

I can post every so often that I very much dislike the current storylines, but that's a one-time thing by some random person on the internet. And for every one of me, there's another who says "Wow, look at that artwork. Good job Marvel" and lists their favorite current titles in their sigs - including ASM and associated books.

So, sigs is the way to go. If we really want to make an impression, we should say that we disapprove of the direction of the comics. Every one of us like-minded people, all with the same message and purpose. If there's even the slightest chance that Marvel will visit these boards and see 3, 5, 20 people in the same thread with something like 'Marvel Fans for Change - disapproving of Marvel's direction since (insert issue here)' in their sigs and stop to think about what they may be doing for their former fans feeling betrayed... it may be worth it.

Ah heck, I'm starting a separate thread for this.

I'd gladly sign and support it. :woot:
Marvel is about Money these days though. thats why we've had so many shock value stories lately...
 
Actually, JMS attributes that line to a monolithic "Marvel", not Quesada specifically.

Fine, but that doesn't negate the insanity of the statement.

Yes, and that agenda is to keep the character as marketable as possible. If you evolve the character too much--through age, supporting cast members dying, etc--then the book becomes virtually unrecognizable to new readers.

And those new readers (of which sales don't seem to be showing there are a significant number of) will eventually become old readers. And when those old readers are told years after they have fallen in love with this character that everything is going to be turned on its head, well then the book becomes virtually unrecognizable to all readers.
 
Maybe he remembers that he unmasked but doesn't remeber it was him :)

LOL

I know...i've been the saying the same thing.

They told us everyone else remembers the unmasking but can't remember the actual unmasking.

Pete must be the only one who doesn't know in the world he unmasked...or else like you say...he maybe remembers he unmasked too but also can't remember his own face? LOL Or maybe he remembers nothing? I dunno. I just hope no one mentions their swiss cheesed minds to him, or the fact that he unmasked, or he'll suffer mental trauma trying to remember what he has or hasn't done.
 
Another continuity issue.
Peter could never have been registered at once if no one remembers his identity.
Many things Rrom the JMS arc will never be explained....

Like Spidey's recently aquired Powers. Why are they gone?
These guys are hoping we're stupid enough to over look those things and keep giving them our money...
 
Another continuity issue.
Peter could never have been registered at once if no one remembers his identity.
Many things Rrom the JMS arc will never be explained....

Like Spidey's recently aquired Powers. Why are they gone?
These guys are hoping we're stupid enough to over look those things and keep giving them our money...

He did register, and people knew his identity THEN...

But it has been forgotten...

Man, I hope Marvel can really give us a good explanation... :csad:
 
He did register, and people knew his identity THEN...

But it has been forgotten...

Man, I hope Marvel can really give us a good explanation... :csad:

:whatever: hahahaha.
There going to ignore it. lol.

This in some ways is another clone saga.
Personally,
I think they shouldn't focus so much on the romance of peter...No one really cares. like i said they gave his marriage too much exposure.

I think most people are upset about the marriage because they said it was the best love in the mu and than suddenly took it away in the most irrational way ever.

not only that...who else can really compare to Mj? everyone is pretty much hooked up already...lol.

Overall I'm frustrated with the fact that...when explaining this to friends that don't know much when we're watching a movie or show and they ask me what goes on in the comics. i have to say oh well he had chemical webs...and than he had organic webs...and than he married Mj. but mephisto suddenly popped up out of no where and erased it....because aunt may got shot....

instead of being able to say ok these guys eventually get married. he doesn't act that way towards her in the comics. they have them together like that in the movies because he's married to her. thats sooooo much easier to explain. :cwink:
 
He did register, and people knew his identity THEN...

But it has been forgotten...

Man, I hope Marvel can really give us a good explanation... :csad:


Well lets use process of elimination/logical deduction to come up with the way this would most likely work.

1)Nobody remembers his true identity
2)He did publicly unmask
3)Magic has removed public memory and record of his identity

It seems most logical that even if he did register, that when Mephisto removed the memory of who Spider-Man was, that this also removed any recorded documents or files about his identity. His alter ego is the only known name (Spider-Man) while any file showing him as registered, would only show him as Spider-Man. No picture of his face, no written statement about his real name. So he agreed to fight on the registration side (Spidey Armor # 2) but his real identity still remains unknown. That still allows him to renege on his word with joining the registration, while still keeping his identity secret. Honestly I think matters such as this are easy to resolve based on the use of magic.

For instance, Peter worked with Tony Stark as an assistant (or more or less as a replacement to Rhodey). Tony employs Peter, but not because he is Spider-Man...but because he recognizes Peter as an intelligent mind. Peter still worked for Tony and remembers this, but he never divulges any information about his identity. So he worked for Tony Stark but once he buts heads with him, he changes his mind. So Tony is most likely aware of Peter and Spider-Man, but not that they are one and the same. This still allows for Peter to disagree with him in the negative zone, but he does so soley as Peter Parker the assistant, not Peter Parker Spider-Man.

I think most readers major problems, is the fact that the back issues can't possibly reflect these changes, but in reality they don't have to. They all happened as they happened originally (MJ married, Harry dead and all) but at the point where he barters with Mephisto, the time frame changes and continues from that point as if those past events occured differently. But it does not change the fact that they occured. It's sort of like in Back to the Future and the Clayton Ravine. Before Doc and Marty went back, Clara fell into the gorge and as a result of her death, it was named after her. When they saved her, it altered things from that point, but the event still occured because Doc and Marty understood that she should have died. The only difference in this juxtaposition, is that Mephisto extended this memory lapse to the person who existed outside of the anamoly as well as those within. But the same basic ideas applied.

I am sure that all higher order beings of the Marvel U are aware of this, such as The Watcher (who is aware of the 616, 1602, What If etc) is aware of it. Or another example within Marvel continuity would be Bishop. When Professor X was killed by his son, it altered the path of history at that point, but it did not undo history as it was, if that makes sense. Bishop was still aware of how things went before, even though he existed in a reality where the things he remembered, did not come to fruition from the point of the accidental assassination. Another example would be House of M, where this time, Wolverine remained aware of the difference. So everything Wolverine knew had happened in continuity, but from the point of House of M, they did not continue that way. These continuity resolves, though convoluted, have been done before and some what frequently. They do not occur despite the past, but rather occur in spite of the past. We can't have a reality where Spider-Man's marriage was dissolved, if he were never married at some point in continuity. So your back issues still matter.
 

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