Comics Enough crying, lets take our fight to Joey Q!

[Themanofbat]

hahahaha.
There going to ignore it. lol.

Another assumption on your part... stop it.

Overall I'm frustrated with the fact that...when explaining this to friends that don't know much when we're watching a movie or show and they ask me what goes on in the comics. i have to say oh well he had chemical webs...and than he had organic webs...and than he married Mj. but mephisto suddenly popped up out of no where and erased it....because aunt may got shot....

instead of being able to say ok these guys eventually get married. he doesn't act that way towards her in the comics. they have them together like that in the movies because he's married to her. thats sooooo much easier to explain.

Just tell your non-comic book reading friends that they get married until a bad guy shows up and gums up the works... I doubt they'll want to get nitty-gritty details, and for the one or two people that might, explain it to them in easy to understand comic book lingo.

"Bad guy shows up and uses magic powers to make'em forget they are in love"

It's comic books... sure they'll think it's silly, but they'll already think that comics are silly and you're much too old to be reading them

 

[Arach Knight]

I don't think it is too difficult to lay down the facts.

The characters were married, but Mary Jane (and Aunt May) was put in too much danger when Spider-Man revealed his identity. So a demon undid the marriage in order to protect Mary Jane and Aunt May.

 

[The Master Planner]

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I don't think it is too difficult to lay down the facts.

The characters were married, but Mary Jane (and Aunt May) was put in too much danger when Spider-Man revealed his identity. So a demon undid the marriage in order to protect Mary Jane and Aunt May.

That's just it though. A demon undid the marriage. As much as I loved the marriage and I really really wish it was back togeather, there was plenty of ways to get rid of the marriage than retconning alot of things and having a demon undo that marriage.

 

[Arach Knight]

True. That is the one point i'll agree on. I don't like the fact that a hero turned to the personification of the devil, in order to solve his problems.

 

[farmernudie]

That's just it, marvel's flagship hero, "mr. relatable" who always does the right thing...is now forever known as a devil-dealer. I don't see him as relatable now, they made Pete a real loser, imo, because i'd never deal my wife to the devil, nor she me. He threw his wife, kid and entire planet under the bus to Satan of all people. Poorly written!

And whenever we see Pete or MJ, we think of the DEVIL. They even tease us/taunt us with MJ's first appearance back with her reading "FAUST", reminding us these characters are devil dealers, in case we forgot already.GOOD GRIEF!

It's annoying to have these two good characters forever tied to the devil.

And whenever you see Aunt may, you know she is an old lady alive only due to devil-power.

And we'll always remember that the Devil makes old ladies live longer in exchange for marriages.

All, entirely....CHEEEESSYY...!!

 

[Styleshift]

So a demon undid the marriage in order to protect Mary Jane and Aunt May.

Last time I checked...
Demon's weren't heroes....
especially if you've seen a movie or read a comic called Ghost rider.

 

[Styleshift]

Another assumption on your part... stop it.

If it looks like a duck....
(I don't think I have to finish that lol)

Besides I have gone on record saying I will comment on BND but I will reserve my final judgement until this long arc is finished or becomes solid.

As for my friends....some of them are comic readers. but not hard core spidey readers.

and when I tell them the mephisto plot. without implementing my opinion. they go "what the crap?"

 

[Styleshift]

That's just it though. A demon undid the marriage. As much as I loved the marriage and I really really wish it was back togeather, there was plenty of ways to get rid of the marriage than retconning alot of things and having a demon undo that marriage.

And here is my opinion ladies and gentlemen.
There would not have been as much fan outcry if the story made sense and was better written.

Peter just basically threw his wife to the devil.
He didn't care about his unmasking.

and sure it was crappy seeing his aunt like that. especially since she was given a much better outing in asm 400. but OMD would have been sooooooo much better if Mj was on her death bed. and peter made the choice to give up the marriage from than on because she sacrificed so much for him and he ultimately let her down just like gwen. instead of retconning every story from 1989 to 2007. you can't ever pick up those stories and read them the same now. why? because there telling YOU the reader that peter wasn't married when the words in the book say otherwise.

 

[Arach Knight]

I wouldn't say it makes Peter unrelatable. Think about how many times in a given week, you say something like "I wish I could do that" or "I wish I had that" or "I wish you'd just go and do this." The only difference between Peter and the rest of us, is that his wish was met with a being capable of granting it. The ideal side says "Why would a hero ask the devil for help?" But the realistic side says that he had no possible means of doing anything. He couldn't afford to help her. His powers were usless and so was his job. The one person he turned to was too much of a dick to help (Tony considered not arresting him to be favor enough). He could either let Aunt May die and realize that Mary Jane Watson was just as vulnerable or he could undo things.

Is it admirable? No. Is it realistic for a person that desperate? I'd say yes. I wouldn't find it hard to fathom that a lonely soldier on the battle field would barter with the devil when they felt that God wasn't answering fast enough. And that is what Peter was...a lonely soldier. I'm not justifying the act. It is disgraceful and disdained. But I wouldn't call it throwing his wife to the devil. He didn't even give his wife to him. He gave up his marriage to her. Big difference (as one is a person and the other is an idea). In the end though, I still can agree that I also disliked that route. There were perhaps better routes. It would have been cooler to see Peter turn to Doom (which would be funny since decades ago in the comics, Doom turned to Spider-Man for a team up) since Doom is perhaps the second most powerful magic user in Marvel. Doom could have possibly done the same thing (or at least near it).

 

[Styleshift]

I wouldn't say it makes Peter unrelatable. Think about how many times in a given week, you say something like "I wish I could do that" or "I wish I had that" or "I wish you'd just go and do this." The only difference between Peter and the rest of us, is that his wish was met with a being capable of granting it. The ideal side says "Why would a hero ask the devil for help?" But the realistic side says that he had no possible means of doing anything. He couldn't afford to help her. His powers were usless and so was his job. The one person he turned to was too much of a dick to help (Tony considered not arresting him to be favor enough). He could either let Aunt May die and realize that Mary Jane Watson was just as vulnerable or he could undo things.

Is it admirable? No. Is it realistic for a person that desperate? I'd say yes. I wouldn't find it hard to fathom that a lonely soldier on the battle field would barter with the devil when they felt that God wasn't answering fast enough. And that is what Peter was...a lonely soldier. I'm not justifying the act. It is disgraceful and disdained. But I wouldn't call it throwing his wife to the devil. He didn't even give his wife to him. He gave up his marriage to her. Big difference (as one is a person and the other is an idea). In the end though, I still can agree that I also disliked that route. There were perhaps better routes. It would have been cooler to see Peter turn to Doom (which would be funny since decades ago in the comics, Doom turned to Spider-Man for a team up) since Doom is perhaps the second most powerful magic user in Marvel. Doom could have possibly done the same thing (or at least near it).

When dealing with Mephisto it's not going to be a simple matter of give me this for this.

Look at ghost rider. he wasn't exactly honest with him. why wouldn't he take peter and use him?

I mean peter isn't really even suffering since he doesn't remember.
OMD was an agenda. not a story.

 

[Styleshift]

Doom the ender of the spider-marriage?
almost but not quite....why would he not want to be involved with the face behind the spider-mask?

it would have conflicted with the new status quo. I say putting mj at death row would have been the best decision.
Still Farmernudie is right.
this will forever put a bad stamp on the spidey mythos.

 

[Arach Knight]

You must not remember that they already killed Mary Jane in a Plane. And for Doom, what benefit was there in knowing Spider-Man's identity? With the past situation, knowing Spider-Man's identity was no more important than knowing that the Sky was blue. Doom had no more of an advantage from that knowledge than the next common street criminal. Would it help Doom out if did Peter that favor? After the fact no. But could Doom have gotten Spider-Man to do something for him (i.e. give up info about Tony Stark)....most likely yes. Besides, Doom's ego alone would give him sheer pleasure in knowing that Spider-Man would have to beg for his help.

Also, you have made an assumption once again that Mephisto isn't double dealing. He did resurrect Harry Osborn didn't he? Think of the ramifications that Peter will face because of that. Now both Osborns (both of Peters greatest enemies) have returned. So yes...Peter will be suffering. And you forget. Since the marriage did happen, it just no longer exists, part of it still survives. And that part is in constant agony. Remember, Mephisto wanted to feed on that agony. So this actually has spun out a story, for an agenda that existed long before Joe Q was the EIC of Marvel.

 

[Themanofbat]

I want to keep applauding Arach Knight for his well thought out and insightful posts...

 

[Styleshift]

You must not remember that they already killed Mary Jane in a Plane. And for Doom, what benefit was there in knowing Spider-Man's identity? With the past situation, knowing Spider-Man's identity was no more important than knowing that the Sky was blue. Doom had no more of an advantage from that knowledge than the next common street criminal. Would it help Doom out if did Peter that favor? After the fact no. But could Doom have gotten Spider-Man to do something for him (i.e. give up info about Tony Stark)....most likely yes. Besides, Doom's ego alone would give him sheer pleasure in knowing that Spider-Man would have to beg for his help.

Also, you have made an assumption once again that Mephisto isn't double dealing. He did resurrect Harry Osborn didn't he? Think of the ramifications that Peter will face because of that. Now both Osborns (both of Peters greatest enemies) have returned. So yes...Peter will be suffering. And you forget. Since the marriage did happen, it just no longer exists, part of it still survives. And that part is in constant agony. Remember, Mephisto wanted to feed on that agony. So this actually has spun out a story, for an agenda that existed long before Joe Q was the EIC of Marvel.

ah ah ah....I wouldn't say I made the assumption that he ISN'T double dealing. everyone already knows that pal.

What I was saying is that why wouldn't he make spidey his lap dog like he did with ghost rider?

Mephisto feeding off agony was a poor excuse to get rid of the marriage. you know with him being evil incarnate and all....

besides with all the magic this and magic that...its a safe bet that they should stay FAR away from it since peter is a man of science.

Doom would eventually have conflicted with the new status quo. it would have possibly resulted in Spidey being a double agent for Doom since the man could black mail him. and im sure if he knew he spidey was he'd find a use for a hero with that much power.

Dooms magic is also limited...compared to someone like Doc Strange. who wouldn't be looking for something in return.

 

[Themanofbat]

ah ah ah....I wouldn't say I made the assumption that he ISN'T double dealing. everyone already knows that pal.

What I was saying is that why wouldn't he make spidey his lap dog like he did with ghost rider?

JQ has responded to Harry's ressurection as "when you deal with the devil, you will suffer consequences..."

There is definitely more to all of this than meets the eye.

The double cross has yet to come...

 

[ZollyBeckerShow]

Yeah, its not like Mephisto doesn't want something in return.

 

[Styleshift]

JQ has responded to Harry's ressurection as "when you deal with the devil, you will suffer consequences..."

There is definitely more to all of this than meets the eye.

The double cross has yet to come...

Ok. I've finally chosen my final stand on the marriage situation.
and my future outlook on the book.

This is going to be ASM volume 2 for me. I will not look into BND as having any canon to any back issues of Spidey. Right now you can't look at it that way. and its giving me headaches trying to figure out how this or that makes since.

I'm going to ignore what happen...and look toward the future.
I will however skip an spidey story that gets hyped by marvel.
until i hear word from the fans.

But if there are any polls about the marriage. I won't be siding with the new vision.

in short. I'm on both sides of the argument now.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

True. That is the one point i'll agree on. I don't like the fact that a hero turned to the personification of the devil, in order to solve his problems.

Yeah, I mean, I know he was desperate, but it was a really bad move.

 

[Arach Knight]

Dooms magic is also limited...compared to someone like Doc Strange. who wouldn't be looking for something in return.

Dooms magic is also limited...compared to someone like Doc Strange. who wouldn't be looking for something in return.

Well I guess you didn't read House of M. Doctor Strange is some what of a selfish man. When House of M was finally undone, everyone kept their memories of the alternate reality that Wanda created. That meant that Peter finally knew what it was like for Uncle Ben and Gwen Stacy to have survived and for Spider-Man to be loved and not hated. He asked Doctor Strange to erase that memory from his mind (a simple request by comparison to what was asked of Mephisto) and he said no. But Doctor Strange willingly bonded with a demon in order to fight The Hulk (World War Hulk). So go figure.

Doom would be the better interest. He is actually a noble villain. He never goes back on his word either (though you must be careful how you phrase your requests, barters and partnerships). If you want to see Doom at his best and truly understand his character, I suggest you look into Doom 2099. In particular, look into his appearences in Spider-Man 2099 (this is the same Doom who exists in current continuity). Doom isn't 100% evil. He is more egotistical than pure evil. He is just evil in the way he achieves things sense. Not in the uncompassionate sadist sense.

And thank you Themanofbat. I appreciate the compliment. I actually find this enlightening, entertaining and useful. It has helped me build up legitimate posts (earn that avatar ). And more or less I have made a few friends (perhaps in the loose sense). I respect everyone who has been involved with the bulk of this debate/conversation. Which would include StyleShift and you Themanofbat.

 

[Styleshift]

Well I guess you didn't read House of M. Doctor Strange is some what of a selfish man. When House of M was finally undone, everyone kept their memories of the alternate reality that Wanda created. That meant that Peter finally knew what it was like for Uncle Ben and Gwen Stacy to have survived and for Spider-Man to be loved and not hated. He asked Doctor Strange to erase that memory from his mind (a simple request by comparison to what was asked of Mephisto) and he said no. But Doctor Strange willingly bonded with a demon in order to fight The Hulk (World War Hulk). So go figure.

Doom would be the better interest. He is actually a noble villain. He never goes back on his word either (though you must be careful how you phrase your requests, barters and partnerships). If you want to see Doom at his best and truly understand his character, I suggest you look into Doom 2099. In particular, look into his appearences in Spider-Man 2099 (this is the same Doom who exists in current continuity). Doom isn't 100% evil. He is more egotistical than pure evil. He is just evil in the way he achieves things sense. Not in the uncompassionate sadist sense.

And thank you Themanofbat. I appreciate the compliment. I actually find this enlightening, entertaining and useful. It has helped me build up legitimate posts (earn that avatar ). And more or less I have made a few friends (perhaps in the loose sense). I respect everyone who has been involved with the bulk of this debate/conversation. Which would include StyleShift and you Themanofbat.

Can't say I wasn't doing the same...lol. (47 posts to go)
while it was an interesting and heated debate...it was fun and never got nasty.

Besides you made better points than me in the overall argument....I couldn't last in the longevity. but i guess i did ok.

as far as the marriage goes. my only true opinion of it is that they should have given it a better send off. it was in the comics so long it became a staple. and im glad we all agree it was LAZY writing.

as for the doom situation. i must admit i don't know much about doom. cept for him being marvel's lex luthor. i've only been exposed to him from the movies and cartoons. and he's always been a top tier level baddie. never noble.

as for doc strange. i cant stand him ever since spiderman tas. lol.

now that you explained doom to me it DOES make much more since than mephisto doing it. but since when did doom start dealing with magic? and just how strong is he with it?

 

[Blader5489]

Well I guess you didn't read House of M. Doctor Strange is some what of a selfish man.

You're just now realizing this? Strange can stop all of the crap that happens in the MU, but he chooses not to. He's practically a villain.

 

[Styleshift]

You're just now realizing this? Strange can stop all of the crap that happens in the MU, but he chooses not to. He's practically a villain.

Doesn't anyone in the MU know this?? Or is he a hero with a secret agenda

 

[Arach Knight]

1)I don't want to say that Doctor Doom does things for good, but when you understand his motivation (trying to gain power so that he can get back his mothers soul from the demon that took it) you can see why he does what he does. He's about one notch below Magneto in terms of the kind of villain he is (because Magneto isn't necessarily evil either).

2)Yes I agree, OMD was poorly plotted out. Using the devil shouldn't have even been an option.

3)Oh i've know that Doctor Strange was a dick. Between House of M, Illuminati and World War Hulk...you pretty much get the idea that you'd almost rather have Victor Von Doom be earth's sorceror supreme.

 

[Styleshift]

1)I don't want to say that Doctor Doom does things for good, but when you understand his motivation (trying to gain power so that he can get back his mothers soul from the demon that took it) you can see why he does what he does. He's about one notch below Magneto in terms of the kind of villain he is (because Magneto isn't necessarily evil either).

2)Yes I agree, OMD was poorly plotted out. Using the devil shouldn't have even been an option.

3)Oh i've know that Doctor Strange was a dick. Between House of M, Illuminati and World War Hulk...you pretty much get the idea that you'd almost rather have Victor Von Doom be earth's sorceror supreme.

Oh yea I know what you mean. It's the same as Lex Luthor.
He wants to live in a world thats under HIS control. and he sees it as being best for everyone.

So bottom line is Doc strange looking out for himself? our does he have his own agenda?