"Final Curtain" Season 2: Episode 26 Discussion Thread

[Spider-ManHero12]

^^ I'm really glad you think it's great.

 

[kguillou]

Dude are you kidding? This show is amazing, i never thought there would be a better spiderman cartoon than the 90's version, but so far 2 seasons of Spectacular have outclassed 5 seasons of the 90's Spiderman TAS in every way and thats saying ALOT cause the 90's cartoon has a very very fond place in my heart. But this show is just awesome man.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I always wondered how Norman switched back into his regular personality after he was unmasked. When he was GG, he was bat**** crazy, and when he was unmasked, back to regular Norman again, they're not doing the personality disorder? He just put on an act? I don't understand someone can automatically can switch back into being normal when seconds before he was a psychopath.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Dude are you kidding? This show is amazing, i never thought there would be a better spiderman cartoon than the 90's version, but so far 2 seasons of Spectacular have outclassed 5 seasons of the 90's Spiderman TAS in every way and thats saying ALOT cause the 90's cartoon has a very very fond place in my heart. But this show is just awesome man.

Words from god, right there. Don't get me wrong, the 90's show was fantastic, but it really doesn't stand a chance with this show.

 

[Pep]

I always wondered how Norman switched back into his regular personality after he was unmasked. When he was GG, he was bat**** crazy, and when he was unmasked, back to regular Norman again, they're not doing the personality disorder? He just put on an act? I don't understand someone can automatically can switch back into being normal when seconds before he was a psychopath.

Oh, he has a personality disorder, but not a split personality. While he had a split personality in the movie and 90s series, it hasn't traditionally been a part of the character. Norman is doing everything under his own volition.

 

[SpaceWay2009]

Oh, he has a personality disorder, but not a split personality. While he had a split personality in the movie and 90s series, it hasn't traditionally been a part of the character. Norman is doing everything under his own volition.

So, that means Norman has two personalities: crazy, psychopath, and dangerous as GG, and calm and sinister as his normal self? In other words, Norman only acts like that when he's the Green Goblin?

 

[Venom 1988]

So, that means Norman has two personalities: crazy, psychopath, and dangerous as GG, and calm and sinister as his normal self? In other words, Norman only acts like that when he's the Green Goblin?

That wouldn't be considered split personalities tho....a better comparison would be to how, like Batman, has dual personalities

 

[Spade]

This series is quite possibly the most consistently good thing I've ever borne witness to on television.

 

[Webhead2006]

Hey greg and company know what they are doing, and add all those great little details in every episode. Here's hoping we get to see more seasons from these guys and hopefully we get order call soon cause we know officially the last crew member was laid off around end of jan. So like i and others have said the longer we go with out order and all the crew members get new jobs to survive in out down economy the harder it could be for everyone to get back and we would want all the producers/writers back on board.

 

[Dread]

Episode Twenty-Six; the final episode of the second season. The episode to which this season and in some ways the entire run of the show will be judged. The final episode of the run of episodes ordered by Kid's WB/CW 4kids, and if Sony & Disney XD don't get their acts together, the last episode of SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN ever. Even if a third season is optioned, animation is a long process, and I doubt episodes of a third season would be seen until around the end of 2010 at least.

Before I get to the usual round of summarizing, praise, and comparisons, it may be a time to look long-term. While Spider-Man is probably more well known overall than the X-Men, the X-Men are a stronger commodity on TV at least since 1993; at this point they are on their third TV series within 15-16 years, all of which lasted beyond one season and beyond 26 episodes, and all on separate networks. Sadly, since the end of the 80's, Spider-Man hasn't been as lucky. John Semper's SPIDER-MAN SERIES ran for 5 seasons and over 60 episodes from 1993-1998 on FoxKids, but after that, Spider-Man cartoons have been the victims of corporate/network bungling. SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED in 1999 died a swift death after one season, as did MTV SPIDER-MAN which was retooled midway through to capitalize on the 2002 film four years later. Both would be done in 13 episodes, and both would end with cliffhanger episodes. SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN has lasted two seasons and 26 episodes, which, regardless of quality, is the best that a Spider-Man show has fared in about a decade on TV. In many ways I like to see it as a culmination; taking decades of material from the normal comics, the Ultimate comics, past cartoons like the 90's series, and even material from the three blockbuster films, and mixing it all together in a blender for a modern audience.

I have seen virtually every single mass media attempt at Spider-Man; the 60's series, the cartoons from 1981 to 1985 which led into SPIDER-MAN AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS. Even the Nicholas Hammond starring live action series from CBS circa 1977-1979 (which I wrote a long review of in the SPIDER-WORLD forum a year or so ago). Plus the movies and even the commentaries for the movies. Some of my first memories were sitting in my playpen in the early 80's and the start of SPIDER-MAN AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS, with Spidey flying across the black screen, are still quite vivid, and I attribute those to getting me interested in comics to begin with. Spider-Man is a character near to my fanboy heart, and it has pained it to see the core company, Marvel, do a lot of wonky or twisted things with him within the past 15 years, from clones to unmaskings to demonic annulments. For long periods of my life, I "outgrew" Spider-Man to various things, like the Ninja Turtles as a child, or anime as a teenager. But so long as something can get the core of the character right, I always come back, that compassion for the franchise is still there. At the end of 26 episodes, no matter what, Wiesman, Cook, and all of their various writers, actors, animators, designers, and so forth have produced a show that got me to like Spider-Man all over again, even at age 26-27, and that's a special thing. DVD sales, ratings, or whatever can't take that away. I just hope that this won't be the last review I type for the show. Maybe that's why I've stalled on it for days.

Spoiler

This episode starts at a fast and furious pace, with a robbery taking place committed by the Green Goblin's squad of pumpkin-mask wearing thugs, dubbed "The Gob Squad" by Spider-Man; I always thought the motif of Goblin's minions was simple and effective. He wants to lead the underworld, so she should have minions, and a simple motif makes them iconic, like many of the Joker's minions (such as the ones loosely based on the Three Stooges in BATMAN: THE NEW GOTHAM KNIGHTS). They don't shoot bullets, but do shoot large spiked cannonballs at the web-slinger when he shows up to thwart their latest spree. Without Tombstone, Silverman, or Ock to lead the criminal underworld, Goblin's team has free reign. Spider-Man dispatches with the goons in some very nicely paced sequences and naturally wants information about finding their boss, who Peter suspects is the still-missing Harry Osborn. He doesn't have much luck, even after one goon manages to escape.

Peter later calls Liz the night after the play (presumably) and apologizes. Frankly a better excuse for missing the play would have been, "I was out looking for Harry", which is sort of true, rather than "I was taking pictures for the Bugle". But perhaps it is telling that Peter goes for the easiest "excuse" first. Liz seems to forgive Peter, but not before wondering if he would have showed up if Gwen had been starring in the play. Aunt May strolls into the room and offers her first bit of advice in ages on the show; that Peter needs to be honest to himself and to the girls he is leaving dangling on his web (pun intended). Before Peter can really debate the point, he receives an emergency call from Gwen; in the middle of the night, Harry has returned to her doorstep!

If this episode has any flaws, it is that in order to resolve the mystery of the Green Goblin after some two seasons as well as to leave enough time for an action packed story in the pleasant, there are not only a LOT of flashbacks, but a lot of rattled off exposition, which sometimes are called "info-dumps" in the biz. Basically, when you have a character seeming rattling off about a paragraph or two of explanations in the middle of a fight, it can take you right out of the action. It is something that is common in a comic book but taken to another medium and it can sometimes slow a pace greatly. It is for this season and perhaps no other that while the final battle between Spider-Man and Green Goblin in this episode is exciting, it can't match the high octane boarding of episode 8, "THE UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE". I am getting a bit ahead of myself, and while I know there's really no way to compromise this. The exposition was required. No way around it. It was decently handled. But it did at times slow things down.

The episode slows down a bit organically when Peter arrives at Gwen's home to meet with a very rattled Harry, reminding himself that as Peter, he can't know about the Goblin identity and to play things cool. Harry admits to his friends that he was abusing the substance "Globuline Green" to boost his performance for football, and that it gave him fainting spells as a result. He also was seemingly the Green Goblin, and spent months in Europe getting therapy for it. This time, however, Harry claims to have been outright kidnapped by the Green Goblin, or at least another in the costume. At first Peter doesn't believe him, wondering if he is a bit crazy, but Harry insists that while he was tempted to "return to the green", he destroyed his only stash to remove the temptation. Gwen encourages them to talk to Norman, and in an amusing bit, both Peter and Harry seem to disagree. "Um...no!"

After claiming the two are good friends, Peter and Gwen for the first time this season have a short but honest talk about their feelings. Peter admits that he "made a mess of things" after the kiss last season, which, frankly, is a bloody understatement. In a curious bid, this show reverses the bit from the films in a way by revealing that Gwen "has been in love with Peter" since the 7th grade. In the movies, Peter was the only who was having unrequited love towards MJ since "first grade" to which she was oblivious to. In the cartoon, while not making it as extreme, they sort of switch things up with Peter being oblivious to Gwen's feelings for a good three years (to which Eddie Brock was more than aware). The two vow to split up with their respective steady's rather than make out behind their backs; Harry overhears from a window, and the stern look on his face seems to imply that he is quickly becoming his father's son in a way.

Spider-Man shows up at the Osborn residence as Harry is meeting with his father about the situation, trying to settle who between them is the Goblin. Spidey wonders if his first instinct was correct, that Norman is the Goblin. Jeff Bennet's Bernard has a hilarious line after exiting the secret wine cellar nonchalantly noting that Spider-Man is there. Osborn notes that Goblin once stole into his facilities and witnesses saw both of them there at once, leaving Peter at square one. Left on the terrace, a line of timed Pumpkin-Bombs nearly blows him to kingdom come, and a short fight ensues between Green Goblin and Spidey. Afterwards, Norman vows to aid Spider-Man in piecing together Goblin's identity, deducing that it must be his aid, Donald Menkin (played by Greg Wiesman himself), who has gone "off the grid".

At school the next day, Peter and Gwen are acting weird enough around MJ that she is figuring they are finally hooking up, and Peter breaks things off with Liz by, essentially, giving her the "Let's be friends" speech, which likely feels worse than being set on fire by Molten Man. Truly heartbroken, Liz tries to at least keep some pride by publically shouting at "Petey" to give the impression that she is dumping HIM, but it's easy to sympathize with her as she rushes off to the bleechers to sob. Liz may not have been as sympathetic as Gwen but she didn't do anything to really deserve that; her brother was prone to trouble and she was more than forgiving of Peter's shenanigans. Being a cheerleader and a part of that clique is superficial; Peter was probably one of the only genuinely good things in her life at that point, and now he's gone. There's some tragedy there. Peter did basically break her heart. In the comics she ends up with Harry Osborn, and it will be curious if we get a Season 3, if that becomes some sort of dynamic, if Harry can't cling to Gwen forever.

It was brief, but it was cool seeing Flash and Sha Shan happy together. The poor guy had to make an ass out of himself, literally, to get her attention, but he finally did.

Harry, however, took the day off from school again, and Spider-Man naturally visits the Osborn home for leads on Menkin. In a nod that tugs at my Spider-fanboy heart, Osborn mentions a "Gargan" as having found Menkin's new address, as in P.I. Mac Gargan, the future Scorpion. God, if any show could handle Scorpion well and not make him a one dimensional fop, it is this show. Similar powers to Spider-Man, reach advantage, superior strength; all he has to do is not go all berserk crazy and maintain some P.I. cunning and Scorpion easily could be akin to Venom in some ways. Menkin's lines after being confronted by Spider-Man are also comedy gold ("I have no response to that.") before the room is flooded with gas and Green Goblin appears.

"Spray a little knockout gas and you fold like oragami. I might just have to do...my happy dance!"

Steven Jay Blum as usual is on fire as Green Goblin, and Alan Ranchins gets quite a bit to do in this episode, more than he has had in a while, and also does well here, even if Blum all but steals the show. With Harry and Norman following close behind in a helicopter, Harry "cowboys up" (that bit of advice Norman gave him in Season 1), smashing through the glass of Menkin's apartment to save Spider-Man from the gas and then getting in the middle of the battle. Unfortunately, not only has Goblin rigged bomb-spewing traps along many rooftops, but has his "Gob Squad" out in force to shoot at Spider-Man with canons, as well as chase after him in ooze-spewing flying machines. At one point Spider-Man practically gives Goblin a "Spider-Sting" style flying uppercut, which reminded me of the CAPCOM 2D fighters that Spidey appeared in. There is a part of me that thought Spider-Man evaded the hordes a bit too easily and it seemed like a video game level, but it was effective nevertheless. It often left Spider-Man distracted and wide open for an attack from Green Goblin himself; one burst of bombs years away a bit of Spidey's mask, a bit of an allusion to the original film. In the midst of the fight, the mask comes off, and it is...Norman Osborn?

And that is when the info-dumps begin. To recap; Norman was ALWAYS the Goblin. He set up his son to take the fall by finding him passed out from indulging too much "green", putting the costume on him, and even mangling his own son's leg after faking a limp to escape Spider-Man, which is damn cold. Norman gained power from the serum via inhaled gas form, to avoid the black-outs that Harry suffered from his oral treatments. Why Harry had the Goblin's voice briefly on the couch, um, I guess the serum effects the voice after a while. Norman was being impersonated by the Chameleon by sheer coincidence when he raided the OsCorp lab, and has hired him for repeat performances, such as tonight's episode. Harry manages to unmask Chameleon and force his retreat from the chopper, which I thought was clever. I was also wondering if Norman at least highly suspected who Spider-Man was, as he was justifying his actions as remaining free for the good of Harry, wanting to "make a man" out of him, as he was now. Why would Spidey care if he wasn't also Harry's friend in real life? Spider-Man, however, sees it as being selfish, and while there are no impalings on gliders here, he ends up sending the Goblin face-first into his own batch of bombs, seemingly killing him.

Despite there apparently being nothing to bury, a funeral is held and Mrs. Osborn is the same zombie she has always been (the bit where Harry wonders if his mother is the Goblin was priceless). Knowing full well about their feelings together, Harry mourns his father and holds Spider-Man responsible for "allowing" him to die...and basically uses the situation to emotionally blackmail Gwen into not breaking up with him. While Harry was naturally hurting and could use the support, I did think it was deliberate to show him being a bit selfish there, rather than being a bigger man and letting his "best friends" hook up. He may not have been the Goblin, but he does have some of Norman's instincts for manipulation.

We end with a less upbeat ending than the first season ended with. While the city is safe from an underworld mastermind for now, Harry's lost his father (something Spidey vowed not to let happen in the pilot, remember, when Vulture was out to kill Osborn), and Peter still doesn't have Gwen, especially now that he knows how he feels towards her. The Conners are leaving their NY lab for Florida, leaving it in the less-than-ethical hands of Dr. Miles Warren, which in Season 3 may lead to a return of the Lizard in a story similar to the early ASM where Spidey has to go to Florida to stop him. However, boarding an outgoing flight is "Mr. Roman", who is none other than Norman Osborn in a blond do, urging the stewardess never to apologize.

I have to commend the show in one major way; info-dumps aside, they managed to make a mystery out of the secret identity of a villain EVERYONE KNOWS. In some ways the 90's series did this; in "ENTER THE GREEN GOBLIN" in the third season of the 90's show, the episode briefly played with the idea that Harry, not Norman, was the Goblin, before revealing Norman as the Goblin himself (who, due to a toy deal, came after Hobgoblin in that show). But that was for only one episode, and not even a full one. This show managed to keep the mystery vital for some 6-7 episodes of material, even after a false "reveal" in the eighth episode. Much as with the Master Planner, the show's writers like the source material too much to muck with it entirely, but provided enough twists and turns to keep even hardcore fans guessing.

As for the Goblin, his insanity was downplayed in some ways and made obvious in the others. In the 90's series, the Goblin was a split-personality; Norman would seemingly forget who he was once he lost the mask. In this series Norman is in no way disoriented when he is the Goblin and talks normally "as himself" without the mask, but obviously Goblin's antics are completely off-the-wall insane, from the poses to the rhyming and so on. Even Harry said, "he was sick" at the funeral. To be fair, the comics haven't used the "split personality" schtick in quite some time; Norman always seems to be in "Goblin mode", just sometimes he can be a cunning tycoon and other times he is cackling and punching walls. Norman seemed less willing to talk in haiku without the mask on, although he was still willing to thrash Spider-Man across rooftops. I didn't have a problem with it; I think this Goblin was more schizophrenic than "split personality" personally, which is more common in real life anyway.

So as the second season comes to a close, we have Peter having revealed his feelings to the girl he loves, but in the process breaking the heart of another. We have him unmasking and defeating one of his deadliest enemies and saving NYC from a crime wave, but at the price of depriving his best friend of his father. We have Peter losing the girl to said best friend, who isn't nearly as selfless. And we have said villain leaving for some R & R, to likely recoop losses and return at some point. In the end Spider-Man isn't regretting or doubting his destiny as hero, but that resolve hasn't made his life any easier. I will say it is a shame that Venom's seeming "reveal" of his identity wasn't played with more, as in not a soul suspected that he COULD have been right to SOME connection between Peter and Spider-Man, but I like Peter actually having a secret identity, unlike in Ultimate Spider-Man where everyone and the dog knows who he is, so I could let it go. While we have had a slew of villains, new and old, this season, the third has Morris Bench and Mac Gargan just waiting in the wings to become Hydro-Man and Scorpion.

What more is there to say? Greg Wiesman brings quality, professionalism, and top acting talent to any project he is on, whether GARGOYLES which made him "famous" in the geek community to bit work like being the ADR director for the redub of the anime series 3X3 EYES for Pioneer/Geneon in 2001 (helping to add some continuity between two short OAV series that comprise 3X3 EYES and improving upon the Streamline Pictures dub of 1995), a series that isn't as well known. Victor Cook and all of the other cast and crew of writers, artists, and especially actors have come together to create the definitive Spider-Man cartoon of the 21st century, which takes bits from prior cartoons and improves, modernizes, and surpasses them. From action to acting, from heart to horror, from romance to brawls, SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN has it all.

I'm grateful for two seasons and 26 episodes, in an era where animation has never been more expensive and many shows die after only one season, especially the last two for Spider-Man. It's been almost unequaled excellence from any recent comic themed cartoon in many years. It's the Spider-Man cartoon that after some 40+ years, has everything and gets it right; good animation, action sequences, acting, and especially writing. After ONE MORE DAY, it honestly could not have come at a better time for me, giving me something excellent of Spidey's to like again, and even surpassing the third film (which I didn't hate as much as some did). For the body of work that stands so far, thanks Sony for funding it, and thanks Wiesman, Cook, Keaton, and everyone else for making it.

It would be a crime almost as terrible as Venom killing off Gwen Stacy, though, if we don't get a third season. C'mon Disney XD, the ball's in your court now!

But even if this is happy trails...the cast and crew have nothing to apologize for.

 

[Anwar]

I think that it was "Romann" at the end, not just "Roman". It's an anagram for "Norman".

 

[CaptainCanada]

Spoiler

Being a cheerleader and a part of that clique is superficial; Peter was probably one of the only genuinely good things in her life at that point, and now he's gone. There's some tragedy there.

When you think about Liz's last few months, she broke up with a long-time boyfriend, her brother got turned into a supervillain and sent to jail, and then her new boyfriend dumped her for someone else.

Next season, with Gwen being emotionally blackmailed by Harry, I'm wondering if we'll start to see Peter dating/partying/whatever with MJ.

 

[Ratcrawler]

Anybody else like the "Mace Bullets"? Hell of an improvement over vague lasery things.

 

[Webhead2006]

Another great review dread.

 

[Rincewind]

Meh about the Mace Bullets. I just wish that they used real guns. It's not like kids haven't seen that in live action movies.

 

[Webhead2006]

Well it is a nice way around having bullets in weapons from S & P folks.

 

[DW4]

I'm not a huge fan of the mace bullet but it's better than those damn lasers. I wish we can have real bullets though.

 

[ironman29758]

This is one of the great episodes of Spectacular Spder-man? I wonder why the Spider-man movie or the 90's tv show didn't do something like this? It kept the action pact adventure and the dark mystery of who the real Green Goblin is going from Norman Osborn-Harry- Donald Menkin to even Emily Osborn! I wonder if they're going to do something similar with Hobgoblin. I love the mention of Mac Gargan and I can't wait to see him on season 3
10/10

 

[Blade X]

Hopefully, someone will put this episode up on megavideo. And yes, I know this episode is up on "you know where", I just think that videos on megavideo look better then videos on youtube (plus you get the entire episode instead of the episode being broken down into 3 parts).

 

[Venom 1988]

^^^
Then use the torrents

 

[SpaceWay2009]

Meh about the Mace Bullets. I just wish that they used real guns. It's not like kids haven't seen that in live action movies.

Exactly! Kids have already been exposed to real guns in live action movies. No sense in censoring the guns in a cartoon.

 

[SpaceWay2009]

When you think about Liz's last few months, she broke up with a long-time boyfriend, her brother got turned into a supervillain and sent to jail, and then her new boyfriend dumped her for someone else.

Next season, with Gwen being emotionally blackmailed by Harry, I'm wondering if we'll start to see Peter dating/partying/whatever with MJ.

I also hope we see some more time between Peter and Liz, even though they broke up. Or better yet, some more time with Black Cat!

 

[Shadow-T]

Best Spider-man Animated Series of all time!!!

 

[Blade X]

^^^
Then use the torrents

I don't want to download it because (a) that would be wrong (that was a sarcastic joke, in case you couldn't tell) and (b) that's a sure fire way to get a computer virus.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Jaw was dropped the whole time. I don't think I have any words to describe how utterly amazing this was!