The Dark Knight "Five dead, two of them cops"

[HanaBi]

I was actually trying to figure this out when Gordon said his final lines, so it was kind of an issue for me! Still not sure...

 

[The Dark Bat]

Maroni might not be dead seeing as how Dent obviously made it out alive.

 

[StrainedEyes]

Gordon knew that Wuertz was the officer who took Harvey. Maybe he wasn't listing him as one of the cops.

 

[Voyeur]

Maroni might not be dead seeing as how Dent obviously made it out alive.

Dent made it a point to put on his seatbelt just before shooting the driver. Maroni may not have been so quick to do so.

 

[Hole Shot]

Maroni and his two thugs count for 3. Wuertz (cop) is 4.

5 is the mystery. It seems pretty lame that the cop Joker killed at the hospital is associated with Harvey. I mean it would get discovered after his body is pulled out of the rubble that he died from a gunshot wound and not the explosion but that would happen weeks if not months after the fact. So we either have to have a suspension of disbelief there or maybe a two face scene was cut for time.

 

[StrainedEyes]

Maroni and his two thugs count for 3. Wuertz (cop) is 4.

5 is the mystery. It seems pretty lame that the cop Joker killed at the hospital is associated with Harvey. I mean it would get discovered after his body is pulled out of the rubble that he died from a gunshot wound and not the explosion but that would happen weeks if not months after the fact. So we either have to have a suspension of disbelief there or maybe a two face scene was cut for time.

They would know at least 1 of the cops left to tend over Harvey, never made it out of the hospital. Gordon seemed pretty worried that Harvey was missing, but he didn't look like he thought Harvey was buried under the rubble.

I think it's very plausible that Gordon thinks Harvey got out of the hospital by killing the 1 or 2 cops left to guard him. It's also possible that the explosion blew them to pieces, thus making it impossible to say they died from a gunshot.

If Harvey got out, the cops left to watch him didn't, and no one knew the Joker was on sight, it's obvious to assume that Gordon would pin the 1 or 2 cops on Harvey.

 

[Golgo-13]

What about the bus driver that Joker said he killed in the beginning, does that count? After all, Gordon knows Joker hit the bank.....

 

[StrainedEyes]

What about the bus driver that Joker said he killed in the beginning, does that count? After all, Gordon knows Joker hit the bank.....

... "Five dead, two of them cops." refers to the murders Harvey committed, or at least the murders Gordon thinks Harvey committed.

Also, that line refers to the thug bus driver. The last clown henchmen that Joker killed. He told all the men to kill a specific member of the heist. The one guy killed the alarm guy, the other guy killed the vault guy, Joker said he is supposed to kill the bus driver. It doesn't refer to an actual bus driver.

 

[Capt Throbberson]

What about the people in the Bar? I don't remember that scene all that well.

 

[StrainedEyes]

What about the people in the Bar? I don't remember that scene all that well.

I don't think Harvey killed the bartender, it looked to me like he was letting Harvey in to kill Wuertz. But they were the only two people in the bar.

 

[rizzo51]

I don't think he would have killed the bartender, he didnt do anything wrong. His coin seems to decide their fates, but then maybe there is missing scenes somewhere..

 

[TromaFreak64]

okay guys -- they would NEVER think Two Face killed the cop at the hospital -- since they now knew Joker was at the scene and took over 50 hostages? So why wouldn't he be blamed for the deaths of officer Davis (who wasn't answering his radio) and the other cop.

Saying they didn't know he was there, means you completely missed the part where he took a bus full of hostages including Mike Engel from the hospital -- remember they even showed Mike on the school bus on TV that's how Joker got his message out.

Having got the new book today of the shooting script, I do hope to find this anwser and someone else hinted that Rameriz death was changed to her survival last minute.

So maybe I can find more.

 

[[A]]

Maroni might not be dead seeing as how Dent obviously made it out alive.

Really? Obviously..?

 

[Venom 1988]

Basically this is how I think it is.

1.) Old cop in bar
2.) Maroni
3.) Maroni's driver
4.) A Maroni thug that Two-Face swapped places with to be in the car.
5.) Ramerez (However shes not dead, Gordon probably just assumed another cop was dead).

 

[SheldonLevene]

Here's the thing fellas. Harvey is imo included in the five because Batman has to take the fall for not only killing the people two face killed, but the D.A. himself.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Here's the thing fellas. Harvey is imo included in the five because Batman has to take the fall for not only killing the people two face killed, but the D.A. himself.

Good point, but that doesn't account for the 2 cops.

 

[DieSmiling]

The people definitely being counted are:

1) Wuertz
2) Maroni's driver

Everything else is speculation. It could count Maroni or his other thug (the one who is grabbed right before they leave, who Two-Face takes the place of) and it could count Ramirez (although I think the obvious implication is that she isn't killed).

It's also entirely possible others are killed off screen that we don't know about, or that Gordon is counting Harvey himself.

 

[gdw]

1. Wuertz (shot by Harvey)
2. Ramirez (I am assuming she was either murdered later or committed suicide)
3. Maroni (in the crash)
4. Maroni's Driver (shot by Harvey)
5. Harvey Dent (pushed off the building by Batman)

This is my interpretation of Gordon's line, and I think it's pretty clear that he's including Dent in these five.

There was also the other of Maroni's men who opend the door for Maroni, and can be assumed was in the driver passenger's seat.

 

[bkey]

Eric Roberts said his character is killed. Even though his dead body isn't shown on scene I think it is pretty obvious that Maroni is dead.

 

[Banquet]

Nolan has a way of being very ambiguous in the way he sets up shots, and in this movie especially he left a lot up to speculation and just plain didn't explain what happened in between rather choppy scenes.

The first time I watched the movie I wasn't counting how many people Two-Face killed, but the second time I counted three: Wertz (the only cop), the driver, and I'm assuming Maroni. We didn't actually see him kill anyone else, and I'm not sure how Gordon would know how many people/who he killed in that short amount of time, especially since he didn't know the Harvey had gone bonkers until right after he kidnapped Gordon's family. Even if he had an idea who Two-Face killed, he counted way more than we even saw. It was just strange, imo.

So I guess I'll be looking foward to what Troma can glean from the shooting script...

 

[TromaFreak64]

okay so i read the script today and the shot of joker in the car would have been immediatly after the party as he was getting away.. there are only two lines, when the clown driving says to him "What about Dent?" (cause he didn't kill him), and Joker responds with "I'm a man of my word" then we later cut to the two guys whos name spell HARVEY DENT killed.

 

[TromaFreak64]

also the script is pretty clear that maroni is unable to buckle his seat belt quick enough and that he dies -- ramirez still lives, but it seems like Gordon can't get a hold of her in the script and is assuming she is dead since she called his wife --- so this script, in case you guys didnt know the script, and production art came out today so go get it.

But from re-reading it all, with a few of the omitted scenes, and minor dialogue changes seems that the count is

1.) wertz
2.)driver
3.) maroni
4.) ramirez (who Jim just thinks is dead 'cause she isn't heard from and she set his wife and kids up)
5.) Dent himself

As Batman is claims is taking the fall for him as well.

This is probably the answer -- the script is also awesome because it tells you were scenes were omitted at from previous drafts and there is no where, when another scene would have existed in the final 40 minutes of the movie, but early on a few small things are omitted -- unfortunately those scenes that were omitted before shooting like that -- it tells you scene 104 omitted but nothing else. So you don't know what they are.

Biut this script is also a pretty good idea of what was shot and not included like the jokers drive away after crashing the party.

 

[Banquet]

okay so i read the script today and the shot of joker in the car would have been immediatly after the party as he was getting away.. there are only two lines, when the clown driving says to him "What about Dent?" (cause he didn't kill him), and Joker responds with "I'm a man of my word" then we later cut to the two guys whos name spell HARVEY DENT killed.

I'm glad they cut that out... heh heh. Does it say anything about who Two-Face killed?

EDIT: okay sweet I'll have to read it as well...

 

[TromaFreak64]

reading the script even more, it made me realize, it is Ramirez the second cop -- she is also missing from the breaking of the signal because of what i said before -- and Gordon does think she died or something happened to her -- thus how they tie up the two face lose ends by batman taking the blame... it specific she is missing, so I assume, it's kind of an open ended fear that eventually she could tell the world about two face. I mean, someone else read this, from reading teh script it seems almost a 100% to me, he meant Ramirez who he thinks is dead thus how batman can take all the blame without anyone finding out -- and they specifically left Ramirez out there as a potential threat to Gotham. Like an ominous fear. Anyone else who has this book read it, and see if you can see the same thing

 

[TromaFreak64]

I'm glad they cut that out... heh heh. Does it say anything about who Two-Face killed?

EDIT: okay sweet I'll have to read it as well...

It says two face hit the ground, his neck broke, he is DEAD. in capitals which is normal to emphasis things you want people to focus on like the camera.