Game of Thrones - Book Readers' Thread - Part 18

[Marvolo]

Spoiler

Blackfyres!

Are you saying that you think Varys is a [BLACKOUT]Blackfyre or that Aegon is a Blackfyre? [/BLACKOUT] Or are you thinking that Varys said he was supporting the Targs but is secretly supporting the [BLACKOUT]Blackfyres[/BLACKOUT]?

Spoiler

Personally I also think Varys is either a Targ or Blackfyre. It could explain why he was castrated. To keep him from continuing the bloodline. His story of how and why he was castrated may be a fabrication of his own making and he may keep his head shaved to keep his Targ white hair hidden.

 

[KevanG]

Sounds reasonable but with the stuff GRRM pulls he could wind up being descended from the kings of the giants and rides out during the final battle with legions of them fighting the Walkers.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Have you read ADWD? He straight up tells Kevan that he is supporting the Targaryens. If the show isn't including [BLACKOUT]Aegon[/BLACKOUT] then he has to support Dany. She is the only other Targaryen atm. And Varys had an image and deception to maintain up until he fled King's Landing so his previous actions and statements about Dany were nothing more than subterfuge to keep his true allegiance and goals hidden from the Lannisters.

He's supporting the

Spoiler

Blackfyres, not the Targaryens. There is a major difference and if you've read either the Dunk and Egg stories or the World Book then you'd know that siding with one means usurping the other. He himself is probably a son of Maelys Blackfyre, and Illyrio's dead wife is probably his sister and Aegon's mother.

The Golden Company, Bittersteel, they're all hellbent on getting the Iron Throne from what they see as an illegitimate line and returning it to the descendants of Daemon Blackfyre, and they're all working for Illyrio/Varys for Aegon. They're not Targaryen allies and Varys actions in the books make it clear that he's working to use Aegon to supplant the Targaryen dynasty with a Blackfyre heir.

 

[Marvolo]

He's supporting the

Spoiler

Blackfyres, not the Targaryens. There is a major difference and if you've read either the Dunk and Egg stories or the World Book then you'd know that siding with one means usurping the other. He himself is probably a son of Maelys Blackfyre, and Illyrio's dead wife is probably his sister and Aegon's mother.

The Golden Company, Bittersteel, they're all hellbent on getting the Iron Throne from what they see as an illegitimate line and returning it to the descendants of Daemon Blackfyre, and they're all working for Illyrio/Varys for Aegon. They're not Targaryen allies and Varys actions in the books make it clear that he's working to use Aegon to supplant the Targaryen dynasty with a Blackfyre heir.

Well I've only read the books and in the epilogue he tells Kevan he is supporting Aegon Targaryan. He doesn't mention the Blackfyres. Anything beyond what is said in the epilogue on the matter is guess work at this point.

Spoiler

Varys explains to the dying Kevan that he bears the man no ill will, that Kevan is simply a good man in service to a bad cause, but he was becoming too successful in uniting the realm behind Tommen and undoing the damage Cersei had caused. The eunuch adds that Cersei will suspect the Tyrells (with help from the Imp) for Kevan's murder, the Tyrells will blame her, someone will blame the Dornish and the alliances shoring up Tommen's hold on the Iron Throne will crumble as Aegon makes his presence known at Storm's End and the realm flocks to the side of the Targaryens.
Kevan insists that Aegon was killed during the Sack of King's Landing but Varys explains otherwise; that Aegon has been groomed since birth to be king, taught not just in skill at arms and ruling, but how to look after himself, what it means to go hungry, to be hunted and most importantly, that it is his duty to rule, not his right, and to put his people first. Varys then summons some of his "little birds" and instructs them to finish the dying Kevan off.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Epilogue_(A_Dance_with_Dragons)

And since D&D know far more about Varys motivations and alliances than we do I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they know what they are doing with Varys in the show.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Well the evidence is there and it's pretty damning if you ask me. His little speech at the end of ADWD does nothing to change that.


I wouldn't assume that D&D even feel the need to honor or reference Varys book motives when they're going radically different routes with the story. My point is, that in the books his actions make sense in hindsight with respect to him being a Blackfyre and an opponent to Dany, whereas with the show the change of him being her most staunch secret supporter comes off (to me) as a lazy change brought about because they decided to jettison several story lines after being faithful to the more popular first three books.

Maybe they'll make some explanation up as the season goes along to explain why he let and caused so much stuff bad happen to her, but to me right now it'll still come across as poorly thought out alteration.

 

[craigdbfan]

Remember that conversation we had Roose? About the show possibly having that divergent Anime-Only ending type of feel? I'm already getting that vibe with a lot of the changes.

Super good up until they started making up their own stuff with a few plot points given to them by the creator. Sounds exactly like what happened to the first Fullmetal Alchemist series.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Actually yeah, the anime comparison is a great way of putting it. FMA, Hellsing, and Akira automatically spring to mind in terms of how the story changed midway through the adaptation process.

 

[Victarion]

D&D may be going with the logic in GRRM's discarded outline for the series when it was a trilogy. According to this outline, Dany's Dothraki would've been adequate for an invasion of Westeros. This would let them explain why Varys and Ilyrio sold her to Khal Drogo. All of this assumes they don't go and reveal that Trystane is Aegon in disguise. I find this more unlikely since Varys is sending Tyrion on through Essos instead of down to Dorne.

 

[fixxxer]

From the text of the books, there's easily a lot more support for Varys being a Blackfyre supporter and that Young Griff is indeed (f)Aegon, i.e. a Blackfyre, albeit through the female line, i.e. descended from Shiera Seastar. Then again, Blackfyre was never really a "family name" in a traditional sense.

In fact, I think it is somewhat obvious that in TWOW, GRRM is setting up Aegon to conquer Westeros and "come out" as a Blackfyre. "The rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, king of the Andals and the Rhoynar, first of his name (red flag... wait, shouldn't it be 6th of his name?) ... yada yada. I give you Ageon... BLACKFYRE." This will set up a second Dance, which would either occur towards the end of TWOW or the beginning of ADOS.

In the show, Varys looks to be currently supporting Dany's claim as a Targaryen, making him a Targ loyalist. This doesn't make too much sense to me, and would be a massive, somewhat lazy retcon in terms of allegiances and motivations, as portrayed in the earlier seasons. Unfortunately, this is starting to look likely.

My hope is that, in the show, Doran (and crew) are a proxy for Jon Con and Ageon Blackfyre is pretending to be Aegon VI Targaryen pretending to be Trystane Martell. This preserves most of the book's intent. Yes, there are some holes that would stem from this... for example, what the BLEEP was Illyrio Mopatis doing the whole time, then? But it's way cleaner than any other alternative. If this isn't the route D&D are planning to take, though, Yara save us all!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Young Griff is the Mummer's Dragon, and thus not a real Targaryen. He has no claim.

Remember that conversation we had Roose? About the show possibly having that divergent Anime-Only ending type of feel? I'm already getting that vibe with a lot of the changes.

Super good up until they started making up their own stuff with a few plot points given to them by the creator. Sounds exactly like what happened to the first Fullmetal Alchemist series.

In this case the Anime Only ending will probably end up better then the source material, considering the way the last two novels went.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Well the evidence is there and it's pretty damning if you ask me. His little speech at the end of ADWD does nothing to change that.


I wouldn't assume that D&D even feel the need to honor or reference Varys book motives when they're going radically different routes with the story. My point is, that in the books his actions make sense in hindsight with respect to him being a Blackfyre and an opponent to Dany, whereas with the show the change of him being her most staunch secret supporter comes off (to me) as a lazy change brought about because they decided to jettison several story lines after being faithful to the more popular first three books.

Maybe they'll make some explanation up as the season goes along to explain why he let and caused so much stuff bad happen to her, but to me right now it'll still come across as poorly thought out alteration.

You say that like it is a bad thing. There is a reason ASOS basically got two full seasons, and these two books will get one and some change. Streamlining the last two books is the best thing they could do imo.

 

[Roose Bolton]

From the text of the books, there's easily a lot more support for Varys being a Blackfyre supporter and that Young Griff is indeed (f)Aegon, i.e. a Blackfyre, albeit through the female line, i.e. descended from Shiera Seastar. Then again, Blackfyre was never really a "family name" in a traditional sense.

In fact, I think it is somewhat obvious that in TWOW, GRRM is setting up Aegon to conquer Westeros and "come out" as a Blackfyre. "The rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, king of the Andals and the Rhoynar, first of his name (red flag... wait, shouldn't it be 6th of his name?) ... yada yada. I give you Ageon... BLACKFYRE." This will set up a second Dance, which would either occur towards the end of TWOW or the beginning of ADOS.

In the show, Varys looks to be currently supporting Dany's claim as a Targaryen, making him a Targ loyalist. This doesn't make too much sense to me, and would be a massive, somewhat lazy retcon in terms of allegiances and motivations, as portrayed in the earlier seasons. Unfortunately, this is starting to look likely.

My hope is that, in the show, Doran (and crew) are a proxy for Jon Con and Ageon Blackfyre is pretending to be Aegon VI Targaryen pretending to be Trystane Martell. This preserves most of the book's intent. Yes, there are some holes that would stem from this... for example, what the BLEEP was Illyrio Mopatis doing the whole time, then? But it's way cleaner than any other alternative. If this isn't the route D&D are planning to take, though, Yara save us all!

Not as such Daemon Blackfyre was legitimized by his father Aegon The Unworthy and given his own lands and took his last name from the famed Targaryen ancestral blade Blackfyre. His sons and grandsons all held the name Blackfyre, so it's not so much a blanket term for Targ bastards, just those who were descended from Daemon. Shiera Seastar was legitimized like her brothers, but wasn't a part of House Blackfyre, much the same way Bloodraven wasn't a Blackfyre. The female line that is frequently mentioned is probably more akin to either a daughter, sister or first cousin of Maelys Blackfyre.
But Yeah, FAegon is probably a Blackfyre.

 

[Roose Bolton]

You say that like it is a bad thing. There is a reason ASOS basically got two full seasons, and these two books will get one and some change. Streamlining the last two books is the best thing they could do imo.

I liked ADWD a good deal and thought that AFFC had it's moments, so of course I think it's a bad thing. But also, I think that when the showrunners decided to sit down and adapt this thing specifically as a television series in order to do it the justice that the film medium could not, they owed it to GRRM and fans of the work to do it all and not just pick and choose their favorite parts. I think it's incredibly disrespectful and shallow.

I'm not sure if you watch Hannibal or are aware of the books/films, but essentially the fandom is split in ways that make ASOIAF look petty and trivial. The first two books and films are considered masterpieces and the latter two are considered mediocre and terrible respectively. Now when creating the tv series Bryan Fuller and his team of writers could have very easily chosen to remove the elements from those last two books and purely focused on the popular stuff. Yet he's adapting it head on, and reworking things to better fit his narrative and make improvements where necessary instead of outright just omitting it like D&D are doing with great chunks of ASOIAF. To me, Hannibal's a good adaptation, it's how it should be done in my opinion and it's a lot more respectful.

Also, I don't really hold D&D's writing in high opinion and have a lot of problems with the way they've approached certain scenes and characters.But that's a whole other kettle of fish.

I appreciate the fact that you hate the last two books, I really do. (Because you're my beloved nemesis ) and also because I can understand the complaints leveled at AFFC and ADWD, but I found whole segments of ADWD to be incredibly moving and epic, and everything I've read from WoW seems amazing to me and a lot of those threads have been dropped or altered to the point beyond recognition. If you can't understand why I'm disappointed by this, then well, I guess there's nothing for it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I liked ADWD a good deal and thought that AFFC had it's moments, so of course I think it's a bad thing. But also, I think that when the showrunners decided to sit down and adapt this thing specifically as a television series in order to do it the justice that the film medium could not, they owed it to GRRM and fans of the work to do it all and not just pick and choose their favorite parts. I think it's incredibly disrespectful and shallow.

I think the showrunners job is first and foremost to adapt the story to the best of their abilities. The keyword here being adapt. If they don't think something works, it is up to them to figure out how to make it work. No matter how one feels about the last two books, there can be no denying that they have bottle necked the story, added a lot of plot lines and lost the main characters a bit.

Considering there is a legitimate time limit on this show, 7, maybe 8 seasons total, they have to get a move on. Considering the nature of the last two novels, it is easy to figure out what needs to go to keep up the pace.

I'm not sure if you watch Hannibal or are aware of the books/films, but essentially the fandom is split in ways that make ASOIAF look petty and trivial. The first two books and films are considered masterpieces and the latter two are considered mediocre and terrible respectively. Now when creating the tv series Bryan Fuller and his team of writers could have very easily chosen to remove the elements from those last two books and purely focused on the popular stuff. Yet he's adapting it head on, and reworking things to better fit his narrative and make improvements where necessary instead of outright just omitting it like D&D are doing with great chunks of ASOIAF. To me, Hannibal's a good adaptation, it's how it should be done in my opinion and it's a lot more respectful.

Well GoT is the most popular show on the planet, so I think they are doing something right. I also think it is unreasonable to think that they don't know what they are doing now, after what they have delivered the first 4 seasons. There is plenty I am not a fan of, but on a whole it is amazingly faithful. Far more then anyone could have anticipated.

Also, I don't really hold D&D's writing in high opinion and have a lot of problems with the way they've approached certain scenes and characters.But that's a whole other kettle of fish.

I think they are very hit and miss. I do not agree with all there decisions, far from it. Heck I think both season 2 and 3 could be vastly improved. But I prefer to criticize the quality over pure faithfulness. Season 4 wasn't quite as faithful as season 1 but is just as good imo.

I appreciate the fact that you hate the last two books, I really do. (Because you're my beloved nemesis ) and also because I can understand the complaints leveled at AFFC and ADWD, but I found whole segments of ADWD to be incredibly moving and epic, and everything I've read from WoW seems amazing to me and a lot of those threads have been dropped or altered to the point beyond recognition. If you can't understand why I'm disappointed by this, then well, I guess there's nothing for it.

I don't hate ADWD. It let me down, but I don't hate it. I am a big fan of the Jon chapters, and dig Theon and Bran's few chapters. I don't even hate AFFC, though I can't ever imagine reading it again. I just take them for what they are and the idea of adapting them whole-cloth is just insane to me. In adaptations good things get cut all the time, because they are not necessary to tell the story in the format of film or television.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Considering there is a legitimate time limit on this show, 7, maybe 8 seasons total, they have to get a move on. Considering the nature of the last two novels, it is easy to figure out what needs to go to keep up the pace.

Now that's where I'm very leery of what we're getting in season 5. I'm not even saying they should do AFFC/ADWD page for page, but we're getting Dorne, minus the main Dornish character and the other faction in which it's being set up to tie into, and we're getting flashbacks of Cersei's childhood with Maggy the Frog. See, to me those are daft things to keep because they really only exist to service the popularity of Oberyn and to go into Cersei's character, when time could be better spent on more pressing stuff (Bran and Bloodraven/Jon's proper election and storyarc for instance). And to me that seems mostly out of favoritism, which they've admitted of being guilty of before. It doesn't fill me with any sort of confidence in their abilities, because, again, I don't think they're great writers and feel that they've got by so far on what is more or less a pretty faithful adaptation of GRRM's story.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Now that's where I'm very leery of what we're getting in season 5. I'm not even saying they should do AFFC/ADWD page for page, but we're getting Dorne, minus the main Dornish character and the other faction in which it's being set up to tie into, and we're getting flashbacks of Cersei's childhood with Maggy the Frog. See, to me those are daft things to keep because they really only exist to service the popularity of Oberyn and to go into Cersei's character, when time could be better spent on more pressing stuff (Bran and Bloodraven/Jon's proper election and storyarc for instance). And to me that seems mostly out of favoritism, which they've admitted of being guilty of before. It doesn't fill me with any sort of confidence in their abilities, because, again, I don't think they're great writers and feel that they've got by so far on what is more or less a pretty faithful adaptation of GRRM's story.

I never say no to character building scenes. So I am all for the Cersei flashback.

What is there to do with Bran and Bloodraven? This is a problem with the story itself, not just the adaptation. Bran has literally nothing to do that probably wouldn't be a massive spoiler that you can't have before Jon, Dany and others get to a certain point. Jon's biggest problems were when he was on the other side of the Wall. The filming process wasn't best and I think it showed in season 2 and 3. But I thought they nailed it in the first and fourth seasons. Last year was a lot of change for Jon, and I think the actually nailed it. So I am all for what they might be doing with him this season, especially as he will send most of his time at the Wall, with Stannis and Mel.

I'd cut Dorne completely, but I am curious about what they are going to do with it. Especially considering it obviously the most radical change of the group.

 

[Lord]

In the show, it doesn't seem like Varys was a Targaryen supporter all along, it seems like he was trying to do what he could with the Lannisters in the throne, but after all that just happened, he realized that was a hopeless bet, and that Danny could be the best way to unite the kingdom.

One of the things that i think the show should have changed due to how much they had evolved the character, was Shae's death, it made sence in the books, but in the show her treason just seemed to come out of nowhere.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I never say no to character building scenes. So I am all for the Cersei flashback.

What is there to do with Bran and Bloodraven? This is a problem with the story itself, not just the adaptation. Bran has literally nothing to do that probably wouldn't be a massive spoiler that you can't have before Jon, Dany and others get to a certain point. Jon's biggest problems were when he was on the other side of the Wall. The filming process wasn't best and I think it showed in season 2 and 3. But I thought they nailed it in the first and fourth seasons. Last year was a lot of change for Jon, and I think the actually nailed it. So I am all for what they might be doing with him this season, especially as he will send most of his time at the Wall, with Stannis and Mel.

I'd cut Dorne completely, but I am curious about what they are going to do with it. Especially considering it obviously the most radical change of the group.

They decide to finally do character flashbacks after four seasons of avoiding it and they spend it exclusively on Cersei of all characters, is my point. Why not Jaime? Why not Stannis? Why not the Ned Stark scene from ADWD that works more to the greater story arc of Jon? Cersei gets a little bit of build up, yet to the detriment of more important characters. That is my issue.

And to me, it seems like they're doing Dorne and all those ancillary characters purely to cash in on Oberyn's popularity more than anything.

 

[Lord]

They decide to finally do character flashbacks after four seasons of avoiding it and they spend it exclusively on Cersei of all characters, is my point. Why not Jaime? Why not Stannis? Why not the Ned Stark scene from ADWD that works more to the greater story arc of Jon? Cersei gets a little bit of build up, yet to the detriment of more important characters. That is my issue.

And to me, it seems like they're doing Dorne and all those ancillary characters purely to cash in on Oberyn's popularity more than anything.

Aren't they dropping Arianne though?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

They decide to finally do character flashbacks after four seasons of avoiding it and they spend it exclusively on Cersei of all characters, is my point. Why not Jaime? Why not Stannis? Why not the Ned Stark scene from ADWD that works more to the greater story arc of Jon? Cersei gets a little bit of build up, yet to the detriment of more important characters. That is my issue.

And to me, it seems like they're doing Dorne and all those ancillary characters purely to cash in on Oberyn's popularity more than anything.

Because this is the season she really starts going off the deep end, plus her walk is this season. And I can tell you exactly why we get no Ned flashbacks. Because they would spoil who Jon's mother is. It is the same reason they didn't hide Selmy. Some stuff works better on the page then on film because you can hide such things. I wanted the Tower of Joy, but I knew exactly why they didn't do it. I do expect some Ned flashbacks by way of Bran, but they won't do that yet. Not before Jon gets stabbed.

What Jaime or Stannis flashback would have done us good at this point? We learn everything about them in extremely effective conversations.

And I don't disagree on Dorne being done because of Oberyn. But if it works, does that matter?

 

[Roose Bolton]

Aren't they dropping Arianne though?

They're still doing the Sand Snakes.

Because this is the season she really starts going off the deep end, plus her walk is this season. And I can tell you exactly why we get no Ned flashbacks. Because they would spoil who Jon's mother is. It is the same reason they didn't hide Selmy. Some stuff works better on the page then on film because you can hide such things. I wanted the Tower of Joy, but I knew exactly why they didn't do it. I do expect some Ned flashbacks by way of Bran, but they won't do that yet. Not before Jon gets stabbed.

What Jaime or Stannis flashback would have done us good at this point? We learn everything about them in extremely effective conversations.

And I don't disagree on Dorne being done because of Oberyn. But if it works, does that matter?

She's had enough character building scenes throughout seasons 1-4 if you ask me, and her insanity can be just as easily explained through extremely effective conversations and her insane actions.

In contrast, take a character like Stannis for instance. What exactly do we know about this man's life? What do we know about the things that drive him? The Siege of Storm's End was very briefly mentioned, I'll grant you, but where do they ever mention the death of his parents, or his role in saving Robert's army in the Greyjoy Rebellion? Stephen Dillane has even said that they told him absolutely nothing about the man or his motivations, and as he comes into the fore this season surely flashbacks would be better spent on one of the central figures we hardly know or have any reason to understand? Even a 2 minute scene in one episode showing his parents death would be enough to make the audience more aware of the guy's motivations, yet they dedicate larger portions to just illustrate that Cersei's always been a psycopathic little girl. I'm just using Stannis as an example here, but there are plenty of other characters in play that are more deserving of attention.

As for Oberyn...does it work? Sexposition is great in a shallow way, but it doesn't provide much depth beyond what genitals can reach...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

She's had enough character building scenes throughout seasons 1-4 if you ask me, and her insanity can be just as easily explained through extremely effective conversations and her insane actions.

That is your opinion. I think the character on the show is fascinating and extremely entertaining. So I am all good for more development, especially considering she is pretty important. I don't expect them to stop developing characters just because they had good work in the past.

Do you think they are going to suddenly stop with Jon, Arya, Jaime, Tyrion, Sansa, and others? Because I don't. It is a long season, and we are missing two big characters in Joff and Tywin.

In contrast, take a character like Stannis for instance. What exactly do we know about this man's life? What do we know about the things that drive him? The Siege of Storm's End was very briefly mentioned, I'll grant you, but where do they ever mention the death of his parents, or his role in saving Robert's army in the Greyjoy Rebellion? Stephen Dillane has even said that they told him absolutely nothing about the man or his motivations, and as he comes into the fore this season surely flashbacks would be better spent on one of the central figures we hardly know or have any reason to understand? Even a 2 minute scene in one episode showing his parents death would be enough to make the audience more aware of the guy's motivations, yet they dedicate larger portions to just illustrate that Cersei's always been a psycopathic little girl. I'm just using Stannis as an example here, but there are plenty of other characters in play that are more deserving of attention.

As for Oberyn...does it work? Sexposition is great in a shallow way, but it doesn't provide much depth beyond what genitals can reach...

Stannis is not a major character. I am a fan, a big one actually. And I think they have mis-characterized him on the show more then a bit. But there is a reason he isn't a POV character. The most important thing about Stannis are his relationships with Mel and Davos. Even still, we have got more then a few strong scenes with Stannis, especially when it comes to Shireen.

Who are all these more important characters then Cersei who haven't had lots of development? The big five have had tons of work. Same with Jaime, Sansa, Davos and Theon. I'd argue Mel, but her thing is being a mystery.

And I am not sure about your last sentence. Are you saying that Oberyn was all sexposition? Because if so, I completely disagree. In fact, I have a hard time fathoming how you came to that conclusion. If you mean it will be a tone of sexposition, I am not sure how you gathered that.

 

[Roose Bolton]

That is your opinion. I think the character on the show is fascinating and extremely entertaining. So I am all good for more development, especially considering she is pretty important. I don't expect them to stop developing characters just because they had good work in the past.

Do you think they are going to suddenly stop with Jon, Arya, Jaime, Tyrion, Sansa, and others? Because I don't. It is a long season, and we are missing two big characters in Joff and Tywin.

She's interesting I'll grant you, (though heavily whitewashed) But if they're really going to streamline things then they're better off cut out out things that simply repeat what we already know. We know she's a stupid, psychopathic woman who loves one brother and despises the other. We know all that, and the point has been heavily underlined. The prophecy? Why is that more important to see than any of the others that have been in the books that have been cut? Hell, we didn't even get the Song of Ice and Fire and the whole series was named for that, it wouldn't have spoiled much of anything either. Not when the rest of the evidence about that character's identity hasn't been even hinted at. Is Cersei's childhood really more important?

Stannis is not a major character. I am a fan, a big one actually. And I think they have mis-characterized him on the show more then a bit. But there is a reason he isn't a POV character. The most important thing about Stannis are his relationships with Mel and Davos. Even still, we have got more then a few strong scenes with Stannis, especially when it comes to Shireen.

Who are all these more important characters then Cersei who haven't had lots of development? The big five have had tons of work. Same with Jaime, Sansa, Davos and Theon. I'd argue Mel, but her thing is being a mystery.

And I am not sure about your last sentence. Are you saying that Oberyn was all sexposition? Because if so, I completely disagree. In fact, I have a hard time fathoming how you came to that conclusion. If you mean it will be a tone of sexposition, I am not sure how you gathered that.

Yes, Stannis' one scene with Shireen was brilliant. Great one scene from 2 seasons ago. Stannis isn't a protagonist, but for what's coming he's quite important to what happens in the North, and by extension, Westeros. He's a significant figure that has barely been given a character.

As for other important characters? Well this season coming up should be more about Theon than it should Cersei. He gets a more defined character arc and one that was better written and more compelling. He deserves to be a central figure this season, more so than Cersei. Though you can deny that all you want, your milage will undoubtedly vary.

Oberyn a sexposition driven character? No. What made him appealing was that he came into the season right after the Lannisters had all but won and served as a cathartic figure throwing open defiance in their faces and trying to seek justice for an act of unspeakable cruelty. He was amazing because he wasn't frightened by anything and yet also very sympathetic in his fearlessness.

But that doesn't change the fact that he assumed Littlefinger's role of keeping up the show's quota of nudity (which Neil Marshall has stated the show actually has). Oberyn had a great story behind him, the Sand Snakes do not. They're essentially attractive female versions of Oberyn that repeat his revenge quest in a less interesting way. Their inclusion screams fan service and little else.

 

[fixxxer]

Not as such Daemon Blackfyre was legitimized by his father Aegon The Unworthy and given his own lands and took his last name from the famed Targaryen ancestral blade Blackfyre. His sons and grandsons all held the name Blackfyre, so it's not so much a blanket term for Targ bastards, just those who were descended from Daemon. Shiera Seastar was legitimized like her brothers, but wasn't a part of House Blackfyre, much the same way Bloodraven wasn't a Blackfyre. The female line that is frequently mentioned is probably more akin to either a daughter, sister or first cousin of Maelys Blackfyre.
But Yeah, FAegon is probably a Blackfyre.

Yup. You're right. I think it's been too long since my last re-read.

But, Shiera or not, I think the crux of my argument remains the same in that Varys is almost certainly a Blackfyre supporter and fAegon is, well, fAegon.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Indeed. I think they even say that Illyrio's wife looked a lot like Daenerys, which could be the identity of fAegon's Blackfyre mother.