Game of Thrones - Book Readers' Thread - - Part 19

[chamber-music]

 

[Huddsy]

Make it about HER. HER reaction, HER struggle, HER thoughts/feeling, HER development. That's the only way to truly make a plot like this work, and even then it's a crap-shoot.

And the fact that the writers KEEP resorting to this lazy trope, is just sad. And the fact that the clearly didn't learn their lesson from the Jamie/Cersei fiasco last season, is even more so.

My biggest issue is how the rape is GLOSSED OVER.

How long ago did Jaime lose his hand, and we've dealt with a lot of his story being about the PTSD of that whole ordeal. With Cersei or Dany, there was no ramifications for the character in dealing with it.

This show, when following the source material, had strong female characters. When D&D have changed things, the women have been cast aside as "cliched "plot devices".

I love this show, but I'm really not impressed at the moment.

 

[Superman Earth1]

Spoiler

I have read somewhere that there is another Targaryen alive? Is that true and when do we see him?

Spoiler

Yes Dany's nephew Aegon VI. He has a role in ADWD (the fifth book). Honestly I don't know if he's even going to appear on the show. They might "simplify" things by combining his arc with Dany's.

Spoiler

Don't forget Jon Snow might be one too

 

[Infinity9999x]

Finally caught up to the ep. So, the whole Sansa thing...

This is my issue right now: how does this add to the character. Why did it need to happen? Aside from shock value, I want to know why, narritively, they thought this was a good route to go, espe6since Sansa hasnt had anything like this happen to her yet. I'm okay with changes as long as the core of the characters stays true. The Jamie/Cersei thing had me outraged, because that was directly against Jamie's character.

This wasn't against Ramsay's character at all...but I just don't know why they thought it should happen to Sansa. Especially if nothing of this sort happens to her in the books.

 

[ThePhantasm]

It happened for two reasons:

1) the actress is now 18
2) shock value over substance

The showmakers care more about outdoing the shockingness of the books than they do about outdoing the character arcs and writing

 

[Reek]

 

[Reek]

It happened for two reasons:

1) the actress is now 18
2) shock value over substance

The showmakers care more about outdoing the shockingness of the books than they do about outdoing the character arcs and writing

or because... RAMSAY RAPES HIS WIFE IN THE ****ING BOOKS.

They care combining characters... but now that it's a character you care about, it becomes an issue?

Thought you were done?

 

[Leenie]

or because... RAMSAY RAPES HIS WIFE IN THE ****ING BOOKS.

They care combining characters... but now that it's a character you care about, it becomes an issue?

Thought you were done?

But it could be spun around by saying that because the actress is 18, the writers decided to combine the two characters into one, because rape scene. It's a pretty big "coincidence" that once the actress turned 18, a rape scene happened with her character.

Also, chill out. No need to curse at someone, and no need to have your nose in the air because you've read the books.

However, in defense of Game of Thrones, as someone who hasn't finished the books (and never plans to; I am not a fan of George R. R. Martin's writing style at all), it is to my understanding that Sansa isn't even in Winterfell yet in the books. Correct? If that's the case, then the show was just having an already established character actually do something. And it just so happens that combining Ramsay's wife and Sansa was the easiest way to do it.

 

[Reek]

Also, chill out. No need to curse at someone, and no need to have your nose in the air because you've read the books.

I apologize. I should chill out. I am so hysterical right now. I should put my nose right back down to the Re: Game of Thrones - Book Readers' Thread - - Part 19

 

[Leenie]

Okay, so here's my take on the entire controversy. My opinion:

I've been watching Game of Thrones since early last year. My boyfriend got into it, and we both watch it together. The show interests him a lot more than it interests me, which is fine (hey, he sits through all of my nerdy crap, so it's only fair). I think it's an overall well-made show, but am I emotionally invested? Not really. Am I wowed? Heck no.

I tried reading the books, and I made it to about half of the second book. I hated reading them, as I think George R. R. Martin's writing style is everything I find boring and annoying in most fantasy books: Too much minutia.

Based on what I've read in the books, what I've heard about the books, and what I've seen in the show, both mediums seem very try-hard to me. Game of Thrones always tries to outdo itself. So a rape scene happened in the show. That does not surprise me, because it's Game of Thrones. I pretty much expect this stuff to happen because it's "so hardcore." I'm desensitized by the whole thing at this point, which doesn't bode well for me as a viewer.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I share the confusion. This is a show known for its gratuitous violence and sex.

Compared to the over-the-top torture porn that they had Ramsay put Theon through for several episodes, this seems relatively mild.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Talking purely about the scene in question and not how it relates the characters, it was probably more tastefully done than a lot of the stuff we've seen. We saw nothing, Sophie Turner wasn't shown nude or anything like that, there was no on-screen sex or sexual violence visually depicted. I have to wonder if that wasn't Sansa, would it have been worse?

 

[Reek]

no one would care if Jeyne Pool existed.

 

[Infinity9999x]

or because... RAMSAY RAPES HIS WIFE IN THE ****ING BOOKS.

They care combining characters... but now that it's a character you care about, it becomes an issue?

Thought you were done?

I think it's more of a question of "Why did the creators feel the need to have this event happen to Sansa?" Again, I don't mind changes to the source material if I think they stay true to the spirit of the characters. I also don't have an issue in general with a show's violent nature. This is based off Medieval Europe, and that was a brutal world. Rape, torture all of that and more occurred on a daily basis. If anyone thinks the show is intense, just read some history books. It's not overdoing it.

In this case, it's not just the violence, it's the fact that they're doing it to a character that hasn't had anything like that happen to them in the books, and I generally don't approve of having a character go through a MAJOR traumatic event without a reason to. What will it add to Sansa character? Why did it need to be added? How will it advance her arc?

These are the questions I wonder. And as of now, I can't really see any. I don't see the need to also have her go through this. She's already experienced awful things and started to grow stronger because of it, this wasn't needed to advance that...I just don't see the point, so it's coming off as cheap shock value.

It's not enough to get me to stop watching the show, but it is very disappointing.

 

[Reek]

but sorry im gloating because ive read the books.

 

[Reek]

I think it's more of a question of "Why did the creators feel the need to have this event happen to Sansa?" Again, I don't mind changes to the source material if I think they stay true to the spirit of the characters. I also don't have an issue in general with a show's violent nature. This is based off Medieval Europe, and that was a brutal world. Rape, torture all of that and more occurred on a daily basis. If anyone thinks the show is intense, just read some history books. It's not overdoing it.

In this case, it's not just the violence, it's the fact that they're doing it to a character that hasn't had anything like that happen to them in the books, and I generally don't approve of having a character go through a MAJOR traumatic event without a reason to. What will it add to Sansa character? Why did it need to be added? How will it advance her arc?

These are the questions I wonder. And as of now, I can't really see any. I don't see the need to also have her go through this. She's already experienced awful things and started to grow stronger because of it, this wasn't needed to advance that...I just don't see the point, so it's coming off as cheap shock value.

It's not enough to get me to stop watching the show, but it is very disappointing.

they are combining a character with another in order to make it more meaningful. It's a TV adaptation. Had to happen. The problem is everyone jumping the gun before the payoff even happens.

 

[Roose Bolton]

no one would care if Jeyne Pool existed.

I definitely think that most of the controversy would be removed if it had been Jeyne in that scene.

 

[dude stannis]

No one cared who Jeyne was until she put on the (Farya) mask.

 

[Roose Bolton]

She's a big guy!

 

[Colossal Spoons]

I think it's more of a question of "Why did the creators feel the need to have this event happen to Sansa?"...

In this case, it's not just the violence, it's the fact that they're doing it to a character that hasn't had anything like that happen to them in the books, and I generally don't approve of having a character go through a MAJOR traumatic event without a reason to. What will it add to Sansa character? Why did it need to be added? How will it advance her arc?

These are the questions I wonder. And as of now, I can't really see any. I don't see the need to also have her go through this. She's already experienced awful things and started to grow stronger because of it, this wasn't needed to advance that...I just don't see the point, so it's coming off as cheap shock value.

It's not enough to get me to stop watching the show, but it is very disappointing.

Sansa has been the whipping girl of GoT since the very beginning. Are you people outraged because of the fact that somebody was raped or b/c it was Sansa? If it's the latter, then you really shouldn't be surprised. I also wouldn't hold out for any kind of revenge at her hands. If anything happens to Ramsay, I think it'll be Stannis, Theon, or somebody out of left field before Sansa. Her character exists to have bad things happen to her. I've also not seen this character growth you mentioned. That snarky conversation with Ramsay's ****e? I could actually see her getting killed accidentally if/when Stannis storms Winterfell. Heck, it'd finally put her out of her misery and the show would have to find a new weekly victim.

 

[Huddsy]

I definitely think that most of the controversy would be removed if it had been Jeyne in that scene.

No, it's controversial because the show allows male characters growth when traumatic things happen to them (Jaime's hand, John and everything to do with Ygritte, etc.) but glosses over rape of several female characters like no big deal.

GoT used to be known for having strong female characters, but those seem to be done away with in favor of focusing on witty jokes about "c*nts" and "wh*res".

This was just the icing on the cake for a lot of people that have grown ever tired of the overly sexualized (for no reason) and violent look towards women. People are far more sensitive to these issues now.

 

[Roose Bolton]

No, it's controversial because the show allows male characters growth when traumatic things happen to them (Jaime's hand, John and everything to do with Ygritte, etc.) but glosses over rape of several female characters like no big deal.

GoT used to be known for having strong female characters, but those seem to be done away with in favor of focusing on witty jokes about "c*nts" and "wh*res".

This was just the icing on the cake for a lot of people that have grown ever tired of the overly sexualized (for no reason) and violent look towards women. People are far more sensitive to these issues now.

Dany went from being what was effectively a sex slave into a queen, into a conqueror and now a messiah. She used that trauma and degradation and grew stronger from the experience to the point where she might well be the most strongest political figure in the show.

Theon has had various parts of his body skinned, he's had fingers and toes cut off, he's had screws jammed into his feet, he's had his penis cut off and his testicles cut out, he's been regularly beaten, constantly threatened with rape, had to watch as countless people were brutally slaughtered and dismembered, and basically been dehumanized to such a degree that most of the other characters refer to him as "creature." Where the hell were any of these people while that was happening? It went on for several episodes over two seasons and no one has raised a complaint. I find it hypocritical that people can get worked up over cruelty inflicted on two or three characters when another character gets far worse and far more regularly and they don't bat an eye.

I can understand people being pissed off because of what it does to Sansa as a character and how it regressed her character development, because believe me it does, but the idea that people are pissed off because of the actual content in general, divorced from this particular character and what it means for her, rings very shallow to me. Westeros is a bleak place, based on medieval Europe where there were fewer morals and women and children were often victimized. It's the nature of the beast that there's going to be rape or abuse involved.

 

[Huddsy]

Dany went from being what was effectively a sex slave into a queen, into a conqueror and now a messiah. She used that trauma and degradation and grew stronger from the experience to the point where she might well be the most strongest political figure in the show.

Theon has had various parts of his body skinned, he's had fingers and toes cut off, he's had screws jammed into his feet, he's had his penis cut off and his testicles cut out, he's been regularly beaten, constantly threatened with rape, had to watch as countless people were brutally slaughtered and dismembered, and basically been dehumanized to such a degree that most of the other characters refer to him as "creature." Where the hell were any of these people while that was happening? It went on for several episodes over two seasons and no one has raised a complaint. I find it hypocritical that people can get worked up over cruelty inflicted on two or three characters when another character gets far worse and far more regularly and they don't bat an eye.

I can understand people being pissed off because of what it does to Sansa as a character and how it regressed her character development, because believe me it does, but the idea that people are pissed off because of the actual content in general, divorced from this particular character and what it means for her, rings very shallow to me. Westeros is a bleak place, based on medieval Europe where there were fewer morals and women and children were often victimized. It's the nature of the beast that there's going to be rape or abuse involved.

For Theon - it's going to be an actual character arc. And it's not the same boring story that every other man has been given in the show. He has his story and his redemption coming.

For Dany, it was handled piss poor. Sure she's become those things, but they never showed what it did to her at all. She was raped and then the next moment she's asking how to seduce the Khal. No lingering on any effects it may have had - which it would have.

I understand doing a brutal story. This is Westeros. But tired sexual violence seems to be D&D's calling card for everything female. That, and as you say, it's poor writing for Sansa's character development as well. I understand that they almost had to because there was no link to Jeyne Pool and so on -- but that's still on them for all the changes they've made. It's a ripple effect - as GRRM has talked about himself.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Believe me, I am the last person who would defend D&D making such a significant character change, and I don't like what we saw this episode, but ignoring that, and ignoring the show, looking to the Winterfell storyline, the bride of Ramsay (whoever that might have been) had to go through something like this. It's a bleak storyline, but it goes beyond gender and sex and serves a very haunting and beautiful reclamation of humanity. Reek had to become Theon again, and a big part of that was him finding the strength to save someone else from receiving his fate. If they took that storyline, and maybe adhired more closely to that then I think it would have worked out in a much better way than what we've been given.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Thought you were done?

I'm done watching the show. I never said I was done talking to you. But maybe that's a good idea too.

*ignore*