Game of Thrones - Book Readers' Thread - - - - Part 21

[Reek]

You're forgetting D&D are at the helm.

 

[Roose Bolton]

You're right, the Tower of Joy, the extensive flashbacks to Robert's Rebellion, it's all set up to show the Secret Origin of Dany "The Messiah" Targaryen.

 

[Reek]

Mhysa! Mhysaaaa!!!! Mhysaaaaa!!!!!!!

 

[Victarion]

You know Jon is going to win and go on to do bigger things, with Stannis there was always the looming possibility that he would fail just as much as Bolton was. Theres no tension in the rumoured scenario, because it's stereotypically good vs evil and at this point in the story it would dictate that good win. That's something for Lord of the Rings, and not Game of Thrones/ASOIAF.

So we probably won't see Jon, armored in black ice with his red sword, leading hordes of wildlings in an attack on the Night's Watch.

 

[Reek]

The Great Other is going to be a giant blue eye on the top of the wall.

 

[Reek]

Played by Joe Chill.

 

[Victarion]

It would be so easy to add ambiguity to that proposed battle...have the Karstarks and the others with Bolton terrified of Melisandre's religion. That's all you need to get started.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Lets be real, they're not going spend so much time on the Tower of Joy, reveal the truth of Jon's parentage and resurrect him just have him be killed off by Ramsay 3 or 4 episodes later.

 

[Victarion]

It would be so easy to add ambiguity to that proposed battle...have the Karstarks and the others with Bolton terrified of Melisandre's religion. That's all you need to get started.

 

[Reek]

well thats what i am saying, they are setting up a bittersweet Jon Snow 'Mhysa' ending for the season.

And I would much rather see that then more ****ing Dany.

 

[Roose Bolton]

What was bittersweet about Mhysa?

 

[Reek]

 

[Drz]

You're right, the Tower of Joy, the extensive flashbacks to Robert's Rebellion, it's all set up to show the Secret Origin of Dany "The Messiah" Targaryen.

You better believe it!

 

[Marvolo]

You know Jon is going to win and go on to do bigger things, with Stannis there was always the looming possibility that he would fail just as much as Bolton was. Theres no tension in the rumoured scenario, because it's stereotypically good vs evil and at this point in the story it would dictate that good win. That's something for Lord of the Rings, and not Game of Thrones/ASOIAF.

I guess you haven't read this recent comment from GRRM:

“I haven’t written the ending yet, so I don’t know, but no. That’s certainly not my intent. I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended ’Lord of the Rings.’ It ends with victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory. Frodo is never whole again, and he goes away to the Undying Lands, and the other people live their lives. And the scouring of the Shire —brilliant piece of work, which I didn’t understand when I was 13 years old: ’Why is this here? The story’s over?’ But every time I read it I understand the brilliance of that segment more and more. All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve it or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge.”


http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/08/14/george-r-r-martin-aiming-for-a-lord-of-the-rings-ending-to-game-of-thrones/

Personally I think some fans are setting themselves up for disappointment. GRRM set out to tell a fantasy with actual consequences and grey morals not to subvert every aspect of the fantasy genre. There is only so much he can subvert the genre so fans expecting a climax totally off the beaten path are probably setting themselves up for disappointment.

 

[dude stannis]

Do you see Roose? Do you see?

 

[Roose Bolton]

I guess you haven't read this recent comment from GRRM:



Personally I think some fans are setting themselves up for disappointment. GRRM set out to tell a fantasy with actual consequences and grey morals not to subvert every aspect of the fantasy genre. There is only so much he can subvert the genre so fans expecting a climax totally off the beaten path are probably setting themselves up for disappointment.

See, this is the thing, I never said anything about the ending. I've never expected this story to end gloomily or something out of Kentaro Miura tale. I was referring to one battle that will possibly happen at least two seasons before the show has ended.

Have a look through every major battle fought in this series; when have they ever played out the way you thought they would have? When have you ever read up to a point and thought "Well they won't kill this guy, because he's the hero." That's the difference between this series, and what the supposed battle with Jon would be like. We'd KNOW he'd triumph because he's just been brought back to be the main hero, so there's no way he'd fall in battle to Ramsay. That robs the story of tension, whereas if it was Stannis vs the Boltons, well neither side is so integral that the story would break without them. There's a boat load of tension, because truly either side could die. Pure good and evil, at least when it comes to the human factions and this war of kings, is not what this series is about. Maybe it will be in regards to the supernatural, but we're not up to that yet.

 

[Drz]

Personally I think some fans are setting themselves up for disappointment. GRRM set out to tell a fantasy with actual consequences and grey morals not to subvert every aspect of the fantasy genre. There is only so much he can subvert the genre so fans expecting a climax totally off the beaten path are probably setting themselves up for disappointment.

I really don't want another show to pull off a bad ending like Breaking Bad, yes you heard me right, i'll rant a bit:

Spoiler

Making the final season about Walter White vs. Nazis and having White die because he's a criminal is just cause they didn't have the balls to have a crime lord succeeding in his life.

Song of Fire and Ice isn't about Daenerys and Jon Snow holding hands, defeating the "evil frost zombies" with their "good fire dragons" and saving the world from external destruction. It's about war between kingdoms and nations.

 

[Reek]

its a war of ... 'please lets get jon and dany to make babies' for HBO.

 

[BestGirl]

Ep 9 is rumored to have a huge battle in the snow... Ramsay/Boltons/Karstarks vs Jon/Wildlings/Possibly Umbers.

It would be a bit predictable but I can see it. The audience would certainly love to see the Boltons destroyed. Personally, I hope Episode 9 depicts the White Walkers breaching the Wall and blowing up what remains of the Night Watch.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

What? It could be what we had hoped the stannis battle would be. I would love to see Jon retake Winterfell and kill Ramsay.

It's too campy for Game of Thrones to kill off a major character in last year's season finale only to have him resurrected and leading an army to battle against the most overdone villain in TV history.

I guess you haven't read this recent comment from GRRM:

Personally I think some fans are setting themselves up for disappointment. GRRM set out to tell a fantasy with actual consequences and grey morals not to subvert every aspect of the fantasy genre. There is only so much he can subvert the genre so fans expecting a climax totally off the beaten path are probably setting themselves up for disappointment.

Like Roose Bolton pointed out, it's more about the battle itself. Pretty much everyone except Dany, Jon, and Bran are expendable until the very end. Stannis vs the Boltons is not a sure thing in the book. I think the odds are in Stannis' favor but even if he wins, it would likely cost him a lot and not put him in a much better situation.

The show killed him off because of D&D's hatred of the character, so now they have to rely on Jon fulfilling his book plot points which makes the show fall into a lot of the fantasy tropes GRRM tried to subvert, especially if R+L=J is revealed this season.

 

[Roose Bolton]

http://watchersonthewall.com/meet-t...c&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork

The Tarlys have been cast.

I would have never considered Faulkner as Randyll, but there it is.

 

[godisawesome]

I'm with Roose and Spidey; a straight up resurrected Jon vs Ramsay fight has spent almost all its suspense before the first blow is struck. Killing Jon once basically shoots that bullet; it can't be fired again, especially so soon after the already kind of botched assassination. And if Jon can't die again, him crushing the psycho, while still fun, is predictable, and that loses a lot of suspense in the fight. Jon dying would make his entire plotline a waste of time again, and we've got no reason to pull for the Boltons at all. And even the Unsullied will know that.

For comparison, take the Brienne vs Hound fight in Season 4. Yeah, book readers could guess how it would end, but there was still a pretty good amount of ambiguity considering how much both storylines had spun off. And we can't really pick one character as being morally favorable: Brienne is more righteous in her motivations, but the Hound's competence and track record seems stronger. So the fight is tense because neither side is protected, and the conflict itself is bad, so the outcome is going to be intense regardless. It allows moments like Brienne disarming the Hound, or the Hound grabbing her sword, or their full on brawl, to all surprise us and ratchet up the awesome each time.

That's what makes a Jon-v-Ramsay fight less interesting than a Baratheon-v-Bolton fight. We know who should win, and our patience is limited on one side losing. In contrast, a fight between the guy who flays people and the guy who burns people sounds like a net win for "good" regardless of the outcome, so already you're kind of pumped. And since you don't know who should win, each character's minor victory, no matter how small, is a surprise and awesome, while also still being suseptible to negation by another moment.

For instance, maybe Ramsay and his boys attack Stannis and kill Stannis's bodyguard, only for Stannis to finish off the last of Ramsay's boys in an awesome display of skill, but is wounded. Now, a smiling Ramsay starts to toy with a wounded Stannis, maybe even getting in some impressive moves. But Stannis back hands Ramsay to the ground, and forces him to retreat with a wound. Then we see Roose Bolton has arrived with reinforcements, Stannis seems especially vulnerable, and we see a third armor get ready to play king maker like in the Battle of Bosworth field....

You see how much more fun and tense that scenario sounds than Jon "The a prince who was promised" Snow vs Ramsay "I have no redeeming features" Bolton?

 

[Victarion]

I still think the guy that flays people is worse than the one that burns people. At least the one that burned people was still willing to give Jon use of his fleet to rescue the wildlings at Hardhome, even though they wouldn't march in his army.

I'm really going to miss stuff like that, where you have someone who does cruel things for a just cause turn around and become the most heroic of the bunch (of self-styled kings).

Those scenarios are way more interesting, truly.

I wonder if the show could have done a better job conveying Ramsay's motivation?

Perhaps those scenes with Theon could have involved him talking to the Prince of the Iron Islands about the place of bastards and nobles in Westeros, emphasizing the dehumanizing nature of that kind of culture. It would tie in nicely to Ramsay's proclivities. Then here in season five, his marriage to Sansa could have been one where he discusses the circumstances of his birth - Roose hunting, finding and raping the peasant girl, and his birth. And again he could bring up the place of bastards in Westeros, leading into a discussion about how fortunate Jon is to have risen so high within the Night's Watch...and this could then take a darker turn with Ramsay being afraid that King Stannis and his thrall, Lord Commander Snow, would reduce him to bastardhood if they retook Winterfell.

With Sansa, I feel like there was room to tell the Unsullied why Ramsay likes to flay people - a crude attempt at the kind of warging magic of the Starks from the olden days.

But, it is not as tantalizing as watching him fight a bunch of armed-to-the-teeth vikings while shirtless, I guess.

 

[Napoleon]

http://watchersonthewall.com/meet-t...c&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork

The Tarlys have been cast.

I would have never considered Faulkner as Randyll, but there it is.

Never heard of any of them, but Faulkner is pretty close appearance-wise to how I imagined Randyll.

Also, I agree that it was a massive missed opportunity to not show the battle between Stannis and the Bolton forces. They should have saved it for Season 6, since they apparently only have enough of s budget to blow it on one major battle per season.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I still think the guy that flays people is worse than the one that burns people. At least the one that burned people was still willing to give Jon use of his fleet to rescue the wildlings at Hardhome, even though they wouldn't march in his army.

I'm really going to miss stuff like that, where you have someone who does cruel things for a just cause turn around and become the most heroic of the bunch (of self-styled kings).

Those scenarios are way more interesting, truly.

I wonder if the show could have done a better job conveying Ramsay's motivation?

Perhaps those scenes with Theon could have involved him talking to the Prince of the Iron Islands about the place of bastards and nobles in Westeros, emphasizing the dehumanizing nature of that kind of culture. It would tie in nicely to Ramsay's proclivities. Then here in season five, his marriage to Sansa could have been one where he discusses the circumstances of his birth - Roose hunting, finding and raping the peasant girl, and his birth. And again he could bring up the place of bastards in Westeros, leading into a discussion about how fortunate Jon is to have risen so high within the Night's Watch...and this could then take a darker turn with Ramsay being afraid that King Stannis and his thrall, Lord Commander Snow, would reduce him to bastardhood if they retook Winterfell.

With Sansa, I feel like there was room to tell the Unsullied why Ramsay likes to flay people - a crude attempt at the kind of warging magic of the Starks from the olden days.

But, it is not as tantalizing as watching him fight a bunch of armed-to-the-teeth vikings while shirtless, I guess.

Everyone seems to forget about Domeric, whom I believe should have been mentioned by this point.