Game of Thrones - Book Readers' Thread

[Drizzle]

So she just happens to tweet a picture of a bunch of stones in a heart shaped pattern... come on. It's an obvious and deliberate nod to [blackout]Lady Stoneheart[/blackout].

Only Lena Headey knows for sure. All we can do is speculate.

 

[TheFuture]

Only Lena Headey knows for sure. All we can do is speculate.

Spoiler

She followed the image with the words,my stone heart. She's also very good friends with Fairley and was devastated when she had to leave the show, so it'd be reasonable to assume that she was sharing the elation of having her friend back. Seriously, to suggest Headey didn't know what she was doing is silly. I have no problem with her being on the wind up btw.

 

[Drizzle]

The finale's director Alex Graves has gone on record and said that LS was never in the cards for this season, which just raises questions about Headey's picture. If there was no chance of it happening this season, then why did she post it? All I'm saying is it could have just been coincidental.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-why-no-lady-stoneheart/

 

[iamlegend]

The finale's director Alex Graves has gone on record and said that LS was never in the cards for this season, which just raises questions about Headey's picture. If there was no chance of it happening this season, then why did she post it? All I'm saying is it could have just been coincidental.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-why-no-lady-stoneheart/

It certainly seems like he says, in a lot of words, that the producers weren't particularly intrigued by the prospect of LS whatsoever. Growing more and more disillusioned with their adaptation.

 

[squeekness]

I guess I am not so sure why all this fascination with Stoneheart anyways? Seems to me she didn't do a whole heck of a lot in the books so far anyways... Or am I forgetting something major with her?

 

[The Navigator]

Am I the only one that had a problem with the way they handled Shae?! The television character was so vastly different from the book character that the ending didn't feel right.

Yeah, same for me.

It seemed like Shae was testifying under duress, (since she was also throwing Sansa under the bus during the trial) and I figured the finale would confirm that, especially with the scene with Cersei and Jamie. Cersei's talking as though Tyrion is a cancer that needs to be cut out no matter the cost, and getting more and more irrational about him--which would be a good place to mention blackmailing Shae to testify or something. Cersei isn't a stranger to this type of behavior, either--

So it seemed like that's how they were going to solve the problem--a no-win scenario, Tyrion doesn't realize it, and brutally strangles her for betraying him.

But apparently Shae just became an incredibly petty ***** who decided to help frame Tyrion and Sansa for murder (who she previously protected as best she could, down to threatening violence on that one nursemaid if she reported Sansa's first period to Cersei) because she couldn't marry the former.

 

[lime]

HQ images from ''The Children''

Spoiler

 

[SuperT]

Yeah, same for me.

It seemed like Shae was testifying under duress, (since she was also throwing Sansa under the bus during the trial) and I figured the finale would confirm that, especially with the scene with Cersei and Jamie. Cersei's talking as though Tyrion is a cancer that needs to be cut out no matter the cost, and getting more and more irrational about him--which would be a good place to mention blackmailing Shae to testify or something. Cersei isn't a stranger to this type of behavior, either--

So it seemed like that's how they were going to solve the problem--a no-win scenario, Tyrion doesn't realize it, and brutally strangles her for betraying him.

But apparently Shae just became an incredibly petty ***** who decided to help frame Tyrion and Sansa for murder (who she previously protected as best she could, down to threatening violence on that one nursemaid if she reported Sansa's first period to Cersei) because she couldn't marry the former.

Exactly. The ending made no sense because the Shae character we were presented with was anything but stupid and petty. She was actually very smart, cunning and cared a great deal for Tyrion from everything that we were shown.

That ending made it out to be like she was some huge, gigantic b**** that terrorized and backstabbed Tyrion which couldn't have been further from the truth.

 

[craigdbfan]

The shift in character was a bit jarring.

 

[TheFuture]

Yeah, same for me.

It seemed like Shae was testifying under duress, (since she was also throwing Sansa under the bus during the trial) and I figured the finale would confirm that, especially with the scene with Cersei and Jamie. Cersei's talking as though Tyrion is a cancer that needs to be cut out no matter the cost, and getting more and more irrational about him--which would be a good place to mention blackmailing Shae to testify or something. Cersei isn't a stranger to this type of behavior, either--

So it seemed like that's how they were going to solve the problem--a no-win scenario, Tyrion doesn't realize it, and brutally strangles her for betraying him.

But apparently Shae just became an incredibly petty ***** who decided to help frame Tyrion and Sansa for murder (who she previously protected as best she could, down to threatening violence on that one nursemaid if she reported Sansa's first period to Cersei) because she couldn't marry the former.

In fairness Tyrion went pretty hell for leather with the things he said to her to make her leave Kings Landing. Dismissed as a ****e who meant nothing in comparison to the beautiful highborn Sansa, you can understand why she agreed to conspire against Tyrion. He broke her heart, and I took his "I'm sorry" to be as much about the things he said as it was killing her.

 

[Hamill-Joker]

In fairness Tyrion went pretty hell for leather with the things he said to her to make her leave Kings Landing. Dismissed as a ****e who meant nothing in comparison to the beautiful highborn Sansa, you can understand why she agreed to conspire against Tyrion. He broke her heart, and I took his "I'm sorry" to be as much about the things he said as it was killing her.

You can also see the whole thing from this perspective. Even if Shae realized he was saying what he was saying in order to get her to leave, in the end he is still choosing to keep his post at King's Landing over being with her. She may have seen it as, if he truly loved her, he would have left with her. So it is piling on of things.

------

On another topic, this season I feel like Arya on the show crossed over to being tied for my favorite character with Tyrion.

 

[Infinity9999x]

In fairness Tyrion went pretty hell for leather with the things he said to her to make her leave Kings Landing. Dismissed as a ****e who meant nothing in comparison to the beautiful highborn Sansa, you can understand why she agreed to conspire against Tyrion. He broke her heart, and I took his "I'm sorry" to be as much about the things he said as it was killing her.

Maybe it's just because what Tyrion did was such a common trope in TV and storytelling in general (the whole "I'm going to say horrible things that I obviously don't feel because I want to protect you by making you leave" thing) but it never rang true to me that Shae would actually believe he felt that way. They had depicted her as smarter than that. So her full about face on Tyrion never felt earned to me, it felt quite forced.

 

[stillanerd]

Regarding the lack of...

Spoiler

Lady Stoneheart. I, too, was a bit disappointed that she didn't appear at the end, because, given how she appears in the epilogue of A Storm of Swords, I assumed she would appear at the end of this episode, too. But then when thinking about it some more, and reading some commentary on it elsewhere, I began to realize:

It was because it so assumed it would happen at the end of this episode that it was not included.

Furthermore, as was hinted in that EW interview with Alex Graves, Lady Stoneheart is part of the whole subplot of the Brotherhood Without Banners hunting down and killing member of the House of Frey as revenge for the Red Wedding--and none of the Freys or the BWB appeared at all during this season. That's because, being that this is an adaptation of the second-half of ASOS, they don't appear in those chapters until the epilogue of that book. So while it would've been cool to see the epilogue in this episode, it terms of telling a narrative for this particular season, it would've been out of place.

However, we know that the BWB going after the Freys is much more prominent in A Feast of Crows. Not to mention both Brianne's search for Sansa and Jamie's self-imposed exile from King's Landing also wind up getting mixed in with that subplot in that same book--and it's obvious that season 5 is going to adapt that book along with A Feast of Dragons. That's where we're more likely to see Lady Stoneheart.

And all this speculation that Lady Stoneheart could be cut entirely? I doubt it. After all, we've already been introduced to Thros of Myr and see that he can resurrect the dead. We also know that, in order to properly dispense justice against the Frey's, the BWB need a witness to the Red Wedding, of which Lady Stoneheart is.

So my prediction is that, at the start of next season, Game of Thrones will have a scene from episode 1 or 2 of next season showing Petyr Frey being captured by the Brotherhood Without Banners. Then we'll get another scene where Walder Frey gets winds of this and Merrett Frey volunteers to pay the ransom. Then finally, at the end of that same episode, we will see the epilogue for AFOC. Thus, it sets up one of the narrative arcs for that particular season, culminating in Brianne being captured and Jamie lured into a trap.

 

[Hamill-Joker]

Regarding the lack of...

Spoiler

Lady Stoneheart. I, too, was a bit disappointed that she didn't appear at the end, because, given how she appears in the epilogue of A Storm of Swords, I assumed she would appear at the end of this episode, too. But then when thinking about it some more, and reading some commentary on it elsewhere, I began to realize:

It was because it so assumed it would happen at the end of this episode that it was not included.

Furthermore, as was hinted in that EW interview with Alex Graves, Lady Stoneheart is part of the whole subplot of the Brotherhood Without Banners hunting down and killing member of the House of Frey as revenge for the Red Wedding--and none of the Freys or the BWB appeared at all during this season. That's because, being that this is an adaptation of the second-half of ASOS, they don't appear in those chapters until the epilogue of that book. So while it would've been cool to see the epilogue in this episode, it terms of telling a narrative for this particular season, it would've been out of place.

However, we know that the BWB going after the Freys is much more prominent in A Feast of Crows. Not to mention both Brianne's search for Sansa and Jamie's self-imposed exile from King's Landing also wind up getting mixed in with that subplot in that same book--and it's obvious that season 5 is going to adapt that book along with A Feast of Dragons. That's where we're more likely to see Lady Stoneheart.

And all this speculation that Lady Stoneheart could be cut entirely? I doubt it. After all, we've already been introduced to Thros of Myr and see that he can resurrect the dead. We also know that, in order to properly dispense justice against the Frey's, the BWB need a witness to the Red Wedding, of which Lady Stoneheart is.

So my prediction is that, at the start of next season, Game of Thrones will have a scene from episode 1 or 2 of next season showing Petyr Frey being captured by the Brotherhood Without Banners. Then we'll get another scene where Walder Frey gets winds of this and Merrett Frey volunteers to pay the ransom. Then finally, at the end of that same episode, we will see the epilogue for AFOC. Thus, it sets up one of the narrative arcs for that particular season, culminating in Brianne being captured and Jamie lured into a trap.

All I remember from EW was one of the EW writers speculating and people mistook it for confirmation. I think they want to wait until they have an actual arc for the character next season. We'll probably get it at the end of 5x01

 

[stillanerd]

Maybe it's just because what Tyrion did was such a common trope in TV and storytelling in general (the whole "I'm going to say horrible things that I obviously don't feel because I want to protect you by making you leave" thing) but it never rang true to me that Shae would actually believe he felt that way. They had depicted her as smarter than that. So her full about face on Tyrion never felt earned to me, it felt quite forced.

Think of it this way: it's apparent that Shae was captured by the Lannisters before she could escape King's Landing and realized she had to do what she had to do in order to survive, including offering herself to Tywin and falsely accusing Tyrion on the witness stand. And, since she was Tywin's consort, she was obviously privy to his overall plan: that he intended all along to send Tyrion to the Wall instead of executing him. Even though she was hurt by what Tyrion said, it seemed clear that she still loved him and, most likely, didn't want him to actually be killed, so of course she'd go along with Tywin's plan. She, just like Tywin and everyone else, had no idea that Tryion would choose trial by combat.

Also, don't forget that Shae never like the fact that Tyrion married Sansa, even if it was a political arrangement. Because in her mind, that just reinforced the notion that she was just the mistress and nothing more. Not to mention she was used to having an opulent lifestyle--which, given Tyrion's arrest was definitely out of the picture. With Tywin, he offers her what she had with Tyrion without any possibility that her lover would later marry.

 

[Hyde]

Pretty sure they showed that, as well as Stannis/Daavos reading it as well. Or am I wishing things from the books into the show?

Yup, they did. It was Davos that convinced Stannis to go I believe.

Aemon had Sam send out the letters to different places. Shireen had already taught Davos how to read stuff and he was just doing his rounds of reading letters, until that big one.

Then he used that letter as his trump card. And Melisandre advised Stannis that the current war is useless and to go and defend the Wall.

Wait, wasn't that back in Season 3?

 

[stillanerd]

All I remember from EW was one of the EW writers speculating and people mistook it for confirmation. I think they want to wait until they have an actual arc for the character next season. We'll probably get it at the end of 5x01

Exactly.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Anyone disappointed in the reaction to Stannis' arrival? The Night Watch seemed generally "meh" about it, instead of shouting "Stannis! Stannis!" In fact, Stannis wasn't really treated like a hero at all.

 

[Drz]

Anyone disappointed in the reaction to Stannis' arrival? The Night Watch seemed generally "meh" about it, instead of shouting "Stannis! Stannis!" In fact, Stannis wasn't really treated like a hero at all.

Yeah i'm really weirded out why they removed the Stannis shouts, i guess they wanted the big reveal for Unsullied to be it's team Stannis, because casuals won't recognize the yellow flag?

Stannis' theme song definitely doesn't inspire him as an hero at all, not to mention Mance Rayder not kneeling to him made Stannis seem weak, but i understand why Mance wouldn't kneel and book readers know what happens next, so it's all good in my opinion.

Here's the Inside + GRMM stuff:
[YT]vR5O9sd1N3U[/YT]

[YT]9c-ZxuWhhCw[/YT]

 

[Hyde]

After reading stillanerd's post, the fact that there was no LS this episode sits with me a lot better now.

Spoiler

It does indeed work better for her to be involved next season. I mean, as cool and epic and jaw-dropping as it would have been to have the final scene be a resurrected Catelyn hanging a Frey, it wouldn't have made sense in the context of the season, whereas it will next year. I think there'll be rumours of the BWB's "Hangwoman" making the rounds and executing Freys, with some saying she's been brought back from the dead, and then when it gets to Episode 9 or 10 or whatever and Brienne's captured we get the shocker that it's actually Catelyn.

Unless they've cut her altogether. When I first heard about her I was confused as to why GRRM decided to bring her back, since it was obvious she wouldn't be involved in any of the major plots going on in Meereen or King's Landing or the Wall, but after actually reading chapters featuring her I warmed up to the idea a lot more. I dunno. Hopefully she's still in.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

If I'm still in FL on 8/2/14 I want to check out the Tampa Comic Con. I knew richard Madden was going to be there but they just added Pedro Pascal as well, really want to get some pics with them

 

[stillanerd]

After reading stillanerd's post, the fact that there was no LS this episode sits with me a lot better now.

Spoiler

It does indeed work better for her to be involved next season. I mean, as cool and epic and jaw-dropping as it would have been to have the final scene be a resurrected Catelyn hanging a Frey, it wouldn't have made sense in the context of the season, whereas it will next year. I think there'll be rumours of the BWB's "Hangwoman" making the rounds and executing Freys, with some saying she's been brought back from the dead, and then when it gets to Episode 9 or 10 or whatever and Brienne's captured we get the shocker that it's actually Catelyn.

Unless they've cut her altogether. When I first heard about her I was confused as to why GRRM decided to bring her back, since it was obvious she wouldn't be involved in any of the major plots going on in Meereen or King's Landing or the Wall, but after actually reading chapters featuring her I warmed up to the idea a lot more. I dunno. Hopefully she's still in.

Yeah...

Spoiler

...delaying the reveal of Lady Stoneheart's true identity until Brianne sees her is definitely another way to go as it would provide a "mystery" for the season as you suggest. Game of Thrones could easily do the hanging of Merret Frey and show Lady Stoneheart without actually showing her face, and thus non-book readers will be going "Who is this witness? The Boltons and Frey's killed everybody at the Red Wedding."

 

[Ramsay Snow]

It was weird seeing Tywin in such a vulnerable position. When he even got hit, he was so vulnerable. Never seen that before.

Wait, wasn't that back in Season 3?

Yeah it was. Why?

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

You could see it in his eyes, too. He really, really, really...did not want to die on the toilet.

So, I'm fully expecting the Lannisters to fall apart and lose their place in the hierarchy. While, yes, King Tommen is a Lannister...he probably sees himself more as a Baratheon. He seemed far away enough from having been manipulated (yet) to do things like Joffrey had, like having both the Stag and the Lion represented visually wherever he could. Tywin was the ****ing rock of that house. The only other person who has the brains and the calculating mind to keep it there was Tyrion. Jamie is completely uninterested, and Cersei isn't really all that smart.

I was fine with Shae's arc. I think the trick of that arc, between her and Tyrion, was you had to have him feel blindsided. You couldn't telegraph that punch entirely because it's Tyrion, and he would/should have been smart enough to see it coming if it had been telegraphed. Yes, one could argue that Tyrion has a blindspot for women. But, they've showcased Tyrion as being a clever character who isn't stupid. Having it seem so unexpected, when she testified against him and when she was banging his dad, all should have been such because I think it's why it hit Tyrion as hard and brutally as it did. So, him taking her love and her loyalty for granted and it utterly destroying him worked for me. And Shae, while she did seem smarter than she probably was, had been shown to have doubted Tyrion when his marriage was arranged. She was very pissed about Tyrion marrying Sansa. And, when he sent her away...with there being a foundation of mistrust, doubt, and jealousy on Shae's part...those fears were sort of validated with the ****ed up **** that Tyrion said.

Shae was clearly a character that had managed to be a survivor in this brutal world, so adding that plus how Tyrion handled things...her turning on him worked. Her...****ing the **** out of his father was...unexpected. But, I wonder if that had anything to do with the greatest follow up question to ever be asked in a trial, by Oberyn. I guess Tywin thought he'd have to try that out.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

Am I the only one that had a problem with the way they handled Shae?! The television character was so vastly different from the book character that the ending didn't feel right.

Didnt GRRM sort of explain that one in that in the book you saw her more through Tyrion's eyes and how he wanted her to be as opposed to the show which was more or less how she really was?