Game of Thrones General (Non-Book Related) Discussion Thread - Part 1

[Breogan]

They already killed Jon once, they won't do it again. Daenery's will be the one who dies. It'd be too obvious for her to end up on the throne, and if she can't be on the throne then there's no reason for her to survive. I'm betting Sansa dies too. She's going to lose trust in Jon and will do something which will be seen as a betrayal to him and it will lead to her death.

Nope you completely misread it.
John will be sacrificed, because he's already dead, he knows it.
And no neither women Sansa or Dani will ever put themselves in a subservient position ever again.
They will however come to terms to split the power, and the only thing that will bring that about from either of them, is to honor John's sacrifice toward that.

That is his fate. No way he gets to survive.

 

[Lencho01]

These made me laugh...

 

[Marvolo]

They already killed Jon once, they won't do it again. Daenery's will be the one who dies. It'd be too obvious for her to end up on the throne, and if she can't be on the throne then there's no reason for her to survive. I'm betting Sansa dies too. She's going to lose trust in Jon and will do something which will be seen as a betrayal to him and it will lead to her death.

As soon as the Night King is defeated R'hllor wont need Jon anymore.

 

[CB Fan]

Everyone was Icy on that day lol. Sansa, Lady Mormont, Danny.

Bran being a creep was funny to watch.

Drogan was looking at Jon “like ***** betta watch ya self”. He was not having it. Also with them not eating much I just know they’re gonna have issues when the wars start.

I’m beginning to think there won’t be a throne when the series ends.

Also interested to see if the R+C=G theory is true or not.

 

[Motown Marvel]

As soon as the Night King is defeated R'hllor wont need Jon anymore.

and yet to kill him AGAIN would be a waste of time retreading story we've been through before. The audience has already spent their emotion on the idea of Jon Snow dying, you can't expect them to spend that emotion again. It'd just be bad storytelling and I'd like to have hope the writers aren't that bad, as they've serviced us pretty good thus far.

But as I tried to indicate in my last post, it's a pointless thing to speculate over and we'll know soon enough.

 

[Marvolo]

and yet to kill him AGAIN would be a waste of time retreading story we've been through before. The audience has already spent their emotion on the idea of Jon Snow dying, you can't expect them to spend that emotion again. It'd just be bad storytelling and I'd like to have hope the writers aren't that bad, as they've serviced us pretty good thus far.

But as I tried to indicate in my last post, it's a pointless thing to speculate over and we'll know soon enough.

He's already dead. Essentially a fire wight rather than an ice wight. Hes only walking around because R'hllor allows it. When his task is done R'hllor's magic will be gone and he'll be a corpse again.

This is something the show and Berric and Mel have all but spoon fed the audience since season 6.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Well all the reunion boxes were checked, only really big one left now is Tyrian and Jaime.

John dose not want power, or to rule over others, never did, never will, only as far as to protect others, and defending from the bigger threat will only ever be his goal.

He will likely sacrifice himself to see that done.
The women: Sansa and Danny (understandably) neiether of which will ever trust or allow themselves to be in a position where others can control or abuse them again, will have to come to terms with John's sacrifice, and make the peace with each other.

John's sacrifice is the only thing that will move to inspire that from them, he is already long dead, this is his fate.

Yup. I think they will go with this route with an added soap opera twist tho, I think Danny will have John's Baby at the end.

 

[Breogan]

and yet to kill him AGAIN would be a waste of time retreading story we've been through before. The audience has already spent their emotion on the idea of Jon Snow dying, you can't expect them to spend that emotion again. It'd just be bad storytelling and I'd like to have hope the writers aren't that bad, as they've serviced us pretty good thus far.

But as I tried to indicate in my last post, it's a pointless thing to speculate over and we'll know soon enough.

Your version John living and getting to go off glib or live happy ever after into the snow set, is what would be bad writing, and bring the eyeroles..
Alive he has to chose sides.
There is only one way for him to bring peace between them. And that's sacrifice.
He's got a great tragic destiny here, he needs to fulfill

 

[Motown Marvel]

We’ll all find out in the coming weeks. If killing Jon for the second time is the route they wanna go, I can’t see how they do it without everyone rolling their eyes at it, but...

 

[Infinity9999x]

He's already dead. Essentially a fire wight rather than an ice wight. Hes only walking around because R'hllor allows it. When his task is done R'hllor's magic will be gone and he'll be a corpse again.

This is something the show and Berric and Mel have all but spoon fed the audience since season 6.

Eh. Maybe. The how's and why's of R'hllor doing anything are kept pretty purposefully vague. Why does R'hllor care what happens on earth at all? How does it affect him? Why does he care if the Night King wins or not? It's not clear, just like it's not clear that he would remove his magic from Jon once the Night King is gone.

His magic and how people are brought back is even cloudier in the books, as we all know what happened with Beric there, and another character that clearly won't play a role in the tv show. It's certainly possible he'll cut Jon's strings at the end...but it's also quite possible he wouldn't. I think Jon's second life being revoked is a better thematic ending for him than having him be killed, as that would just feel a bit redundant at this point. I don't really see R'hllor just removing Jon's life though without some kind of sacrificial aspect to Jon dying (if he does die). The way Jon's been built up, it just doesn't seem likely.

But who knows, it is GOT. And the one thing the cast has kept saying is that the ending is something no one will expect. That could be bunk...but if it is true, I don't see Jon dying that way at all. If anything, I think it would be something a bit darker. Maybe we find out there always must be a balance between the ice and fire, and that the white walkers can never be truly eliminated. Maybe Jon ends up being forced to become the next Night King. That would certainly be something no one expects. Because Jon dying again...really wouldn't surprise anyone at this point. We're all prepared for just about anyone to everyone to die.

 

[Kane52630]

Cersei in this episode:

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

The Episode title is "Winterfell"

Game of Thrones - 1

 

[CB Fan]

Interesting...

 

[DACrowe]

and yet to kill him AGAIN would be a waste of time retreading story we've been through before. The audience has already spent their emotion on the idea of Jon Snow dying, you can't expect them to spend that emotion again. It'd just be bad storytelling and I'd like to have hope the writers aren't that bad, as they've serviced us pretty good thus far.

But as I tried to indicate in my last post, it's a pointless thing to speculate over and we'll know soon enough.

Hmm, we all thought he'd come back too. If he dies again, it'll be final. I feel like he's on borrowed time (it's something Beric Donddarion alluded to last season). He has a role to play, and then he can find the peace in death he never found in life. Look at him discovering he's the rightful king. It's like someone stabbed him in the heart all over again.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

When Dany saw the throne all the way back in season 2, it was covered in snow. I still think that means something.

Jon and Arya are the best. 8 years later, and they are still the best.

 

[TheVileOne]

Interesting...

So, Night King is Targaryen? It knows Jon is Targaryen? Night King is Jon?

 

[CB Fan]

So, Night King is Targaryen? It knows Jon is Targaryen? Night King is Jon?

Dunno, but I dont think it’s a random coincidence.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Dany can't stop with the petty or being *****y. She makes Sansa look reasonable.

 

[Man in the Suit]

Game of Thrones - "Winterfell" (2019) dir. David Nutter

 

[DarthSkywalker]

 

[TheFuture]

Spoiler

Glover really is a plonker. I imagine the Motte is going to get eviscerated in a quick scene by the Night King en route to Winterfell.

Had to start getting ready for work towards the end so had no idea that was the Umber kid.

 

[Elayis]

Spoiler

You're right about you being a bit nitpicky.

Suffice to say that Catelyn was a huge improvement, because in the show she had the ability to judge the totality of her mistakes, and she was never written as so prideful to be foolish, which allowed huge swaths of the (male) fan community to dismiss her as a vain fool. I'm talking about moments like her urging Ned Stark to go to King's Landing because it would be a great honor. Rather the show displays Catelyn's tactical brilliance, at least in terms of realpolitik constantly, as the show underscores she is always right. She tells Robb not to marry Talisa (something she wishes she could've warned in the book about Jeyne, but it's tool ate so she keeps silent), she said don't send Theon Greyjoy back to his father, and she was able to even negotiate a possible peace with Renly Baratheon.

Robb being aged up is just the necessity of the medium. Giving him more onscreen dynamism is also because of that. I understand the novelty of subverting reader expectation by making the Boy King (the ostensible hero in a fantasy story) a secondary character as told from his mother's perspective, but as the show wishes to build out and fully flesh out the Starks, he needs to have a more central role, especially for the Red Wedding "twist" to work, so developing a romance between him and Talisa instead of making it a one night stand is fine.

Margaery in the book is an Anne Boleyn clone that is, again, intentionally underdeveloped so readers must cast their own opinions and interpretations on her. The show does not have that luxury. They could've made her mostly peripheral, but instead we got an upgrade with Natalie Dormer (ironically a former Anne Boleyn) playing her as a major power-player in the series. She is actually one of the strongest elements of the show's best seasons (3 and 4), and her manipulations of Joffrey and Tommen are actually very well written television, albeit quite creepy in the latter's case. Her scenes with Olenna are even better, another improvement in the show considering the Queen of Thorns is also barely in the books and we are left merely to understand who she is by implication.

I won't go through all your points on Sansa, save I agree that it was foolish for Lititlefinger to marry her to the Boltons and that it was forced as the literary character (or the Littlefinger of the first five seasons) wouldn't have made such a ghastly mistake. However, Sansa being manipulated by Littlefinger to marry someone who will not really help her? It's heavily hinted at in ADWD and in sample chapters in TWOW that he's doing that to her and she is falling for it. I actually think Sansa has learned a lot and really isn't snobby at all in the show, not anymore. She is still very feminine and always will be, but she is doubtful of Jon because he gives her reasons to doubt him (no one thought him entreating with Daenerys in season 7 was a good idea and it only worked because the plot needed it to), and her seeking revenge on Ramsay feels like an authentic growth of the Sansa who spent years being beaten, psychologically tortured, and threatened. Keep in mind that Arya becoming an assassin and murdering people in cold blood is a far cry from the little girl of the early books who just wanted to be reunited with her mother and keep her friendships with Gendry and Hot Pie in tact. They change over time.

Again, you act like all of HBO's credits are The Sopranos, Deadwood (which I think is overrated), The Wire, and Big Little Lies. They also produced True Blood, Entourage, the second season of True Detective, and so man others. Game of Thrones is one of the very best dramas on TV, ever. It's had missteps, and may lack in the sophistication of, say, The Wire, but its narrative is so intricate and finely woven (yes because of the books) that it really is more ambitious in terms of plotting and scope than any show on television and it clearly works.

Also your generalizations ring false about "all the best moments are in the final two episodes after season 3." Not when Joffrey's murder, Tyrion's trial, the Red Viper vs. the Mountain, Tyrion meeting Daenerys, Hardhome, the death of Olenna Tyrell, and Cersei going Targaryen on the Lannisters all happened in early or midseason.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about the changes made from book to screen. In the end I think it comes down to personal preference, and I much prefer the more deliberate pace of the novels to the broad strokes of the show. Martin's narrative, aside from being better written, makes more sense thematically and fits the world he has created. D&D may have kept the larger story beats, but their altering of so many little character details has added up over the years to the point where the tiny ripples in season 1 are now 30 foot tsunamis sweeping away any coherence that was left. The changes fundamentally alter the story that is being told, and casts characters in a far different light than in the novels. It's clear that D&D have been playing favorites since day one (they love the Lannisters, except Jaime, and dislike the Starks due their honor, which they think is moronic).

In the books the characters drive the plot, not the other way around. It's largely a problem of the later seasons, but still applies to characters like Cat who are a victim of circumstance instead of being in charge of their destinies. It's hard to care about characters when their actions are warped to fit preconceived plot points instead of a more natural cause and effect.

Maybe I placed too great an emphasis on the quality of GoT compared to other HBO shows (completely forgot about Entourage and True Blood), but they don't get the same level of attention or acclaim. It hurts the industry when a show like this is passed off as high art. Again, I have no problem with praise directed at the art direction, music, acting, stunt work or CGI, but the reason why this show has been so successful is because of the framework provided by the novels. If this had been an original series by D&D I doubt it would've gotten a second season. The fact that the most recent seasons (the ones that jumped the shark, narratively speaking) are the ones receiving the most awards for its storytelling is appalling. Television is supposed to be the writer's medium, the place where story is king. I don't want shows with brains to be phased out in favor of four quadrant crowdpleasers.

 

[Elayis]

Overall, this was the most “okay” episode of GoT in years. Still too many testicle jokes, the prostitute scene was gratuitous, but all in all it was decent, something I did not expect I’d be saying. It doesn’t have the same liveliness or punch as the earlier seasons, the dialogue and acting feels stiff and awkward at times (too much dead air), but it’s fine. I just wish scenes like Jon & Arya’s reunion went on for longer, it felt a little abrupt for two people who were so close to spend most of their conversation comparing their weapons. And please, less RoboBran.

If the later episodes are at least this good and don’t have too many contrivances, I think I’ll be satisfied. At least, it’s enough to tide me over until the books come (at least Winds, no idea if Spring will ever be released).

My main complaint is like almost every GoT premiere episode the runtime was largely spent on things the audience already knows. I think if earlier seasons had handled certain reveals better and let the characters who are directly affected by them find out at the same time as the audience, it would’ve been more dramatically satisfying. As it stands in the episode, the way everything was handled, almost by rote like a checklist, it got a bit boring by the end.

I will say, I was a bit surprised by and much appreciated the new title sequence and greatly increased sense of scale of Westeros. You could definitely feel the increased budget, like finally seeing where the smallfolk live in Winterfell. Those were nice touches. It makes me a little sad that the show didn’t have these resources from the beginning. Imagine the Battle of Blackwater with the current level of CGI.

It’s nice being able to enjoy this show for a change.

 

[HKpowerup]

Good episode, but you can tell that there is much more emphasis on scope than intimate character moments compared to earlier seasons. But it was still good.

There were a couple of unncessary scenes, which goes back to my earlier point about putting scope & grandness over telling a character driven story with narrative. But this was still fine and slowly, diligently sets up the remaining arcs.

Next episode looks very eventful, there are only 5 left. I can't believe it.

 

[HKpowerup]

Overall, this was the most “okay” episode of GoT in years. Still too many testicle jokes, the prostitute scene was gratuitous, but all in all it was decent, something I did not expect I’d be saying. It doesn’t have the same liveliness or punch as the earlier seasons, the dialogue and acting feels stiff and awkward at times (too much dead air), but it’s fine. I just wish scenes like Jon & Arya’s reunion went on for longer, it felt a little abrupt for two people who were so close to spend most of their conversation comparing their weapons. And please, less RoboBran.

If the later episodes are at least this good and don’t have too many contrivances, I think I’ll be satisfied. At least, it’s enough to tide me over until the books come (at least Winds, no idea if Spring will ever be released).

My main complaint is like almost every GoT premiere episode the runtime was largely spent on things the audience already knows. I think if earlier seasons had handled certain reveals better and let the characters who are directly affected by them find out at the same time as the audience, it would’ve been more dramatically satisfying. As it stands in the episode, the way everything was handled, almost by rote like a checklist, it got a bit boring by the end.

I will say, I was a bit surprised by and much appreciated the new title sequence and greatly increased sense of scale of Westeros. You could definitely feel the increased budget, like finally seeing where the smallfolk live in Winterfell. Those were nice touches. It makes me a little sad that the show didn’t have these resources from the beginning. Imagine the Battle of Blackwater with the current level of CGI.

It’s nice being able to enjoy this show for a change.

Fully agreed. especially about the lack of punchy, snappy dialogue and some of the reunions not lasting as long or being as in-depth as they should have.

But the emotional impact of the reunions still hit, thanks to the incredible build-up and crafting of story over the past 7 seasons.