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Game of Thrones General (Non-Book Related) Discussion Thread - Part 1
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Lencho01
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Elayis
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This show is a lot worse than I remember it being. I've been rewatching it with my younger brother (who's new to the show) and it's been quite the eye opener. Even what I considered the good seasons (1-4) share the same sorts of problems the most recent stuff has. I guess the rose colored glasses and loss of perspective was simply due to how long it's been since the show started. I've never rewatched anything before except for 3/4 of season 1 in 2015. I've basically grown up with the show (I was 18 when it premiered), so evolving tastes also plays a factor.
It's just weird seeing the exact same crap we get in the later seasons (dick jokes, frat humor, people behaving completely out of character, wasting time on invented characters and scenes instead of adapting crucial stuff from the book), that this kind of thing was always a part of the show from day one. Several characters were completely ruined from the beginning, and were only worth watching because the quality of the acting is so high (Sam, Catelyn, Sansa, Robb, Margaery, Littlefinger, Varys). I don't know if I just never noticed it or excused it because the genuine book material they adapted was so good, but it's clear that this was never the "genius" work that I previously thought it was. It's honestly embarrassing going from this something like Deadwood which really is as good as everyone says.Last edited:
Leo Zelinsky
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Classic example of everyone likes something, so I'll get on my high horse and act like I'm too good for it. Lol
Elayis
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I'm not sure I understand the purpose of your comment, other than to dismiss any criticism of the show out of hand without addressing it. If you think the show is so good, why not have a discussion about its actual merits and problems? I'm not saying the show is without bright spots, or that all changes from the books were bad, but the flaws by far outweigh any good. It may not be a widely held opinion, but for me its gotten to the point where there's not a single character I care about anymore. The narrative is so broken and the cast so unlikeable/stupid/plot armored/ooc that it's become impossible for me to stay invested in anything that happens.
That line about Deadwood was because for some absurd reason GoT seems to be getting the most attention and critical acclaim for its worst seasons, which is baffling to me. Also, if you'd asked me what I thought of the series 5 or 6 years ago you would've gotten a very different answer. This used to be one of my favorite shows ever, so your accusation that I'm only slinging mud because it's popular is baseless.
The comparison also seemed apt to me given that both shows are done by HBO. You'd think they'd try to keep better quality control across all of their franchises. A spotty season here and there I can understand, no one's perfect (like True Detective), but the difference between GoT and shows like Deadwood or The Wire or Rome is simply staggering. The early seasons were never high art, but they were mostly solid. From season 5 onward it became abundantly clear D&D had let the success and fame of the show go to their heads, and clearly didn't give a damn anymore. They've been saying for years now that they're bored and are rushing to get to the end. It doesn't matter if whole plot threads are dropped or abruptly ended. It doesn't matter if characters become polar opposites from their book counterparts. It doesn't matter if the meaning and soul of the story is twisted or entirely absent, just get it done with speed and spectacle.
MaceB
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This kind of comment almost only comes from book readers. You aren't comparing it to most TV shows... you're comparing it to the books, which you love, which no TV show could live up to. To call Game of Thrones the show embarrassing is really quite a stretch. It is one of the most well made, well acted, well directed, most spectacular shows ever put on television. The writing is on par with nearly any other show out there... little better...little worse.
You knew you weren't gonna get much love with this post, but you did it anyway. I appreciate the candor, but I certainly disagree with you.
Elayis
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I'll admit that my rewatch has been colored by my knowledge of the books. Sometimes I've had to consciously work out whether my irritation with the changes are because they are inherently bad or simply different. I didn't read the books until after seeing the first 6 seasons. My issues with seasons 5 & 6 my first time through weren't affected by aSoIaF, but the novels certainly changed how I have consumed the franchise since. I have no problem with the show being popular or with people liking it, I just wish fans didn't also try to paint it as one of the greatest shows ever, especially the later seasons which have gotten the highest ratings and most awards.
I have no problem with the praise for the music, cinematography, visual design or (most of) the actors, but the storytelling and at times direction are a problem. It's now clear that the most problematic elements of D&D's writing were always there. The earlier seasons at least tried to tell a story about character journeys and political machinations (and sometimes succeeded), but after a certain point the show devolved to dragons, battles, fanservice and "shocks," whether or not they were earned or made sense, and was always to free with unwarranted nudity. And I find it hard to believe that the endless dick jokes and immature, frat humor can be construed as good writing.
In regards to comparing it to the source material, the difference in quality between the show and novels is almost night and day. It's telling that nearly everything that has made the show popular is taken directly from the books, while the most criticized aspects are original to the show. I can understand preferring the inherent differences and added benefits of television over a novel, but there's no denying the level of craftsmanship in Martin's writing compared to Benioff and Weiss, let alone his ear for dialogue.
The best adaptions aren't 1:1 copies, but a distillation of the spirit of the source material that works in its new medium (like The Shining). Unfortunately, most of GoT plays out like the later Harry Potter films, a CliffNotes version of the novels. Dialogue, scenes or whole characters & locations are cut for time, but the story isn't altered to reflect these changes. Scenes lifted directly from the book are almost always shortened, which leaves them feeling rushed, or elements are combined with no rhyme or reason to it (why do Davo and Melisandre still sneak into a sewer when their target is nowhere near a castle or any fortification?). There's also so much crucial background detail that is left out, it's no wonder so many Unsullied have no idea what's going on or get confused with something as basic as character names.
It's become more clear over the years that D&D either don't understand the themes and spirit of aSoIaF, or purposefully ignore and upturn them. It almost cannot be a coincidence that the end points of nearly every character in season 5 are the complete opposite from the books on a thematic level, even if at a glance they hit the same plot points. The story may be dark and at times depressing, with good people suffering horrible fates while the villains stay in power, but it's never hopeless. GoT on the other hand seems to revel in its nihilism. It's characters seem to be stupid, heartless or both, and it delights in brutality and cruelty.
Reek
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" It's telling that nearly everything that has made the show popular is taken directly from the books, while the most criticized aspects are original to the show. "
What? Yea. Hardhome and Battle of the Bastards had nothing to do with the show skyrocketing.
I agree on a lot of "book stuff is better" but it seems like you're bored and wanting to blab right as the season starts. can we wait til its all over then get into the discussion? ya know... cause the title of the thread is... uh .. ahem...
GAME OF THRONES GENERAL (NON-BOOK RELATED) DISCUSSION
Fist of Khonshu
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Good grief. While many of us share your general trend of thought, this kind of quibbling and castigating from it is over the top.
Westeros.org is that way - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >
Fist of Khonshu
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30 hours! Yes, I'm watching the clock!
And we still don't have an episode title...!?
DACrowe
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How exactly were Catelyn, Robb, Margaery, Sansa, and Sam ruined by the show? I get the arguments for Littlefinger and Varys, but Margaery and Cat were an upgrade in my book on the show, with Robb and Sansa being pretty faithfully adapted (although I think Sansa is more sympathetic in the later books, and we haven't seen her "turn" yet that it seems building toward).
P.S. A number of the shows you name as better... um... I love Rome too. Have a soft spot and nostalgia for it, but the writing is far more hamfisted and "fratty" than Game of Thrones, and rushed. It's a show that works because of the production design, cast, and most of all history it is based on is so rich. The writing was actually quite messy, especially in the second season.
As for Game of Thrones feeling "rushed" compared to the book, have you thought this might be because you're comparing the scenes to the book counterparts? I'll admit I would be taken aback how quickly the show went through scenes from the books in the first two seasons, if only because the books were fresh in my mind when I watched the first two seasons. Really it was always paced pretty well until Season 7, minus the show's admitted weak points (Dorne and the Iron Islands, which they're always in a rush to get through.)Last edited:
Fist of Khonshu
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DACrowe
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Good. Considering there is a grim chance we will never see Martin's ending, I've been hoping and counting on Dave and Dan to give us the general conclusion Martin envisioned.
They may have made some awkward steps getting there (like Tyrion insisting on not attacking King's Landing or Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale at Winterfell, etc.), but they're getting there. I have a bad feeling George never will.
Elayis
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Praise for the episodes you mention is specifically for the actions scenes, which almost solely are the responsibility of the director and stunt/VFX departments. Have you read the scripts for Hardhome and BotB? D&D don't go into much detail there, almost all of it was the work of Sapochnik. In terms of writing, it's relatively sparse and what is there doesn't make much sense. Those episodes are like a sporting match or any Hollywood blockbuster; the excitement comes from the kinetic energy and visual feast put on display. It's a rollercoaster, not something to analyze too deeply.
As for the thread topic, how would specifically discussing the show be appropriate for the book thread? I'm talking generally about the show, not specific book details.
Apologies in advance for the wall of text.
How exactly were Catelyn, Robb, Margaery, Sansa, and Sam ruined by the show? I get the arguments for Littlefinger and Varys, but Margaery and Cat were an upgrade in my book on the show, with Robb and Sansa being pretty faithfully adapted (although I think Sansa is more sympathetic in the later books, and we haven't seen her "turn" yet that it seems building toward).
As for Game of Thrones feeling "rushed" compared to the book, have you thought this might be because you're comparing the scenes to the book counterparts? I'll admit I would be taken aback how quickly the show went through scenes from the books in the first two seasons, if only because the books were fresh in my mind when I watched the first two seasons. Really it was always paced pretty well until Season 7, minus the show's admitted weak points (Dorne and the Iron Islands, which they're always in a rush to get through.)
All of Cat's agency was eliminated. Instead of her being a driving force behind Robb's Rebellion, the show reduces her to a sad, worried mother whose only desire is to see her children. She has no head for tactics, no idea how to help in the fight that is literally all about her family. This somewhat comes down to personal preference, but hating Jon because he's proof of her husband's love/passion for another woman, instead of his being a constant threat to her children's legitimacy is a change for the worst.
Robb marrying for love (willfully disregarding his marriage pact) instead out of a misplace sense of honor does a disservice to the character. The age difference also doesn't help things. He should be young and inexperienced, taking on too much responsibility for someone of his age. It alters the way his rebellion and its actions are viewed, especially when you can't forgive some of his missteps due to his youth.
Margaery is a victim of the change in medium. A lot of her character is left unexplained due to her lacking a POV in the novels, and unfortunately the show makes her agenda and scheming too obvious (the same issue that plagues Littlefinger). Less is more would've been better here, we didn't need as many private scenes with her as we ended up getting. Without material from the book to fall back on, D&D are forced to create stuff from whole cloth and they simply aren't very good at it. At the very least she comes off as wildly anachronistic, especially in season two with her attempted threesome.
The problems with Sansa crop up in the later seasons (starting in the later half of season 4), but the signs were always there. She might have been naive and snobby early on in the books, but she left all of that behind after her father's death. She was always very careful to keep up her "courtesy as a shield", and never made the same mistake twice. And yet on the show, Sansa repeatedly backslides into arrogance and cruelty. It constantly amazed me that she could go through one horrible event after another and still apparently learn nothing. How was marrying the people who butchered her family and potentially giving them heirs "vengeance?" How was her losing all agency and becoming a sexual assault victim character development? Why is she mad at Jon for not listening to her about Ramsay when she really didn't tell him antyhgin he could use, especially the fact that she had an entire army at her beck and call? Why was she still falling for Littlefinger's lies at Winterfell when she already had so much dirt on him by that point? And personally, I was disgusted that she enjoyed watching Ramsay being savagely torn apart by his own dogs. It's the kind of thing Cersei would do.
Sam was never handled properly. They paid lip service to his reasons for coming to the wall, but after his intro monologue he devolved to being the show's comic relief, the sad, fat virgin whose one sole wish is to get laid. He was a convenient source of exposition when needed, but there's so much more to the character that they never even touched. Once he left Castle Black, his rom-com/soap opera narrative became excruciating to watch.
When it comes to GoT and other HBO shows, I guess it comes down to personal taste. I prefer Rome, but that's just me. There are plenty of other shows I could've mentioned, but I tried to stick to similar genre spectacles or large-scale political dramas. My point was that GoT sticks out like a sore thumb, like The Walking Dead being on the same channel as Mad Men, Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul.
Comparing translations of specific scenes is a little nitpicky on my part, I just mentioned it because it was something I noticed on my rewatch. Even when the episode was written by Martin, the adaptions lacked the gravitas and poetry of the novels. Maybe it wasn't just it's truncated form, but a shortcoming in the directing/acting. Again, not a big deal (especially when the show is so much worse when it tries something original).
As for pacing, D&D seem very keen on making everything a struggle so that there's a big payoff at the end, so they force that onto every storyline, whether or not it works. Arbitrarily deciding that episode 8/9 contains the major battle/shock of the season dictates how the rest of the season must unfold, even if certain character arcs don't fit into that mold. So much of seasons 4 & 7 were full of filler due to this nonsensical structuring. Also, for a show that obsessed with surprising the audience, this formulaic approach to storytelling is very obvious. It's why the later seasons were so predictable, even though they were filled with constant fake-outs trying to trick the audience (how many near death experiences can the characters have before you stop caring?).
OutOfBoose
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I loved the show so much during seasons 1-3. 4-5 were OK. 6 and onwards, especially 7 - such a mess, my goodness. They tried to compensate it with spectacle, but progression and character work went to complete ****. Now I'm glad it's wrapping up. I'm ready to see everyone meeting their end. Valar Morghulis.
Glad there's another super-interesting fantasy show with good budget on the horizon.
DACrowe
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You're right about you being a bit nitpicky.
Suffice to say that Catelyn was a huge improvement, because in the show she had the ability to judge the totality of her mistakes, and she was never written as so prideful to be foolish, which allowed huge swaths of the (male) fan community to dismiss her as a vain fool. I'm talking about moments like her urging Ned Stark to go to King's Landing because it would be a great honor. Rather the show displays Catelyn's tactical brilliance, at least in terms of realpolitik constantly, as the show underscores she is always right. She tells Robb not to marry Talisa (something she wishes she could've warned in the book about Jeyne, but it's tool ate so she keeps silent), she said don't send Theon Greyjoy back to his father, and she was able to even negotiate a possible peace with Renly Baratheon.
Robb being aged up is just the necessity of the medium. Giving him more onscreen dynamism is also because of that. I understand the novelty of subverting reader expectation by making the Boy King (the ostensible hero in a fantasy story) a secondary character as told from his mother's perspective, but as the show wishes to build out and fully flesh out the Starks, he needs to have a more central role, especially for the Red Wedding "twist" to work, so developing a romance between him and Talisa instead of making it a one night stand is fine.
Margaery in the book is an Anne Boleyn clone that is, again, intentionally underdeveloped so readers must cast their own opinions and interpretations on her. The show does not have that luxury. They could've made her mostly peripheral, but instead we got an upgrade with Natalie Dormer (ironically a former Anne Boleyn) playing her as a major power-player in the series. She is actually one of the strongest elements of the show's best seasons (3 and 4), and her manipulations of Joffrey and Tommen are actually very well written television, albeit quite creepy in the latter's case. Her scenes with Olenna are even better, another improvement in the show considering the Queen of Thorns is also barely in the books and we are left merely to understand who she is by implication.
I won't go through all your points on Sansa, save I agree that it was foolish for Lititlefinger to marry her to the Boltons and that it was forced as the literary character (or the Littlefinger of the first five seasons) wouldn't have made such a ghastly mistake. However, Sansa being manipulated by Littlefinger to marry someone who will not really help her? It's heavily hinted at in ADWD and in sample chapters in TWOW that he's doing that to her and she is falling for it. I actually think Sansa has learned a lot and really isn't snobby at all in the show, not anymore. She is still very feminine and always will be, but she is doubtful of Jon because he gives her reasons to doubt him (no one thought him entreating with Daenerys in season 7 was a good idea and it only worked because the plot needed it to), and her seeking revenge on Ramsay feels like an authentic growth of the Sansa who spent years being beaten, psychologically tortured, and threatened. Keep in mind that Arya becoming an assassin and murdering people in cold blood is a far cry from the little girl of the early books who just wanted to be reunited with her mother and keep her friendships with Gendry and Hot Pie in tact. They change over time.
Again, you act like all of HBO's credits are The Sopranos, Deadwood (which I think is overrated), The Wire, and Big Little Lies. They also produced True Blood, Entourage, the second season of True Detective, and so man others. Game of Thrones is one of the very best dramas on TV, ever. It's had missteps, and may lack in the sophistication of, say, The Wire, but its narrative is so intricate and finely woven (yes because of the books) that it really is more ambitious in terms of plotting and scope than any show on television and it clearly works.
Also your generalizations ring false about "all the best moments are in the final two episodes after season 3." Not when Joffrey's murder, Tyrion's trial, the Red Viper vs. the Mountain, Tyrion meeting Daenerys, Hardhome, the death of Olenna Tyrell, and Cersei going Targaryen on the Lannisters all happened in early or midseason.
Fist of Khonshu
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April 14, 2019 EP1 54min
April 21, 2019 EP2 58min
April 28, 2019 EP3 1hr 22 min
May 5, 2019 EP4 1hr 18 min
May 12, 2019 EP5 1hr 20 min
May 19, 2019 EP6 1hr 20min
Season total is 7hrs 12m -- approximately the same length (only 8 minutes shorter) as SE07 despite having one less episode.Similar threads
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