Game of Thrones General (Non-Book Related) Discussion Thread - Part 1

[JimThompson]

I heard HBO actually wanted to give them more seasons and more episodes. They were the ones who didn't want.

That is correct. They were offered 10 episodes.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I heard HBO actually wanted to give them more seasons and more episodes. They were the ones who didn't want. And that's one of the reasons I like and respect HBO. They usually respect the writers.

But yeah. I mean, this last season had 6 episodes. 2 of them were big battles with barely no dialogues. I'm not opposed to this kind of big battles episodes at all. But when you have so many characters and storylines to work in only 6 episodes, you use 2 of them for no dialogues? It should've been more.

But anyway...

That's what I've heard as well. I respect that HBO treats their writers well, but in this case it was a terrible move, given that D&D so obviously just wanted to get the show over with. The two battle episodes were incredible, but the story had no room to breathe. And it really hurt last season, too, with Dany's allies all getting eliminated in two episodes, them just forgetting about Ellaria, etc...

 

[MaceB]

I'm sorry, "that's not how it should end" or "this is what was supposed to happen" are NOT valid complaints. If you hated this season because the storyline was rushed and didn't develop properly, than that's a very real issue. But I'm not talking about those fans. How many times do I need to establish this before people stop deciding I'm talking about them?

Sure it is. A story has a beginning, middle, and end. It is judged by how satisfactorily it sets up the threat... how threatening that situation becomes... and how the story resolves itself naturally. It you set up Tom Sawyer as the hero in Act 1 and 2, and then give him no lines and reverse course on his characterization.. letting a different character resolve his main conflict...then that's a problem. It's a flaw with the storytelling... it's not us just complaining because we didn't get the ending we wanted.

You are arguing that the author is above criticism... but there's a whole field of study based on literary criticism. Authors can make poor storytelling decisions, and we have a right to call them out for those decisions when they do.

 

[JimThompson]

Sure it is. A story has a beginning, middle, and end. It is judged by how satisfactorily it sets up the threat... how threatening that situation becomes... and how the story resolves itself naturally. It you set up Tom Sawyer as the hero in Act 1 and 2, and then give him no lines and reverse course on his characterization.. letting a different character resolve his main conflict...then that's a problem. It's a flaw with the storytelling... it's not us just complaining because we didn't get the ending we wanted.

You are arguing that the author is above criticism... but there's a whole field of study based on literary criticism. Authors can make poor storytelling decisions, and we have a right to call them out for those decisions when they do.

I largely agree with this, with one small caveat.

Authors/creators can make decisions I personally disagree with. That does not automatically make them "poor" decisions, anymore than making decision I agree with makes that a "good" decision.

The last season of GoT had some quantifiably bad moments (a Starbucks cup sitting in a scene, for example.) But most of the rest of it was just stuff I personally did not agree with.

 

[Hand Banana]

Some people had weird expectations for the final episode. Some of which is hilarious in hindsight.

 

[FTCBIRDMAN]

My only expectation was that it would be good and I dunno maybe make sense? I still can't get over that the rise and fall of the mad queen took 30 minutes of screen time. Her death to me was so anticlimactic. It was rushed and it suffered for it. It's really as simple as that

 

[BrownEyedGirl]

I will say something though. I know people were complaining about Jon and Tyrion always saying "But she is my queen", and for some reason, it annoyed people. But, back in the beginning of season 2, Davos was the same way with Stannis, and even though he knew better, he still stuck by Stannis side till the end, and I don't remember people giving him grief for it. We also have to look at Daenerys from Tyrion and Jon's POV. She gave Tyrion a second chance when his own father and sister wanted him dead for something he didn't even do. and with Jon, Dany ended up sacrificing her dragon and many of her military to help him with his war against the Night King. I can understand why they were so resentful to abandoning her until the last moment. Sansa could have been nicer too and not be so salty towards her.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

I'm sorry, "that's not how it should end" or "this is what was supposed to happen" are NOT valid complaints. If you hated this season because the storyline was rushed and didn't develop properly, than that's a very real issue. But I'm not talking about those fans. How many times do I need to establish this before people stop deciding I'm talking about them?

The problem is you condescendingly said "the vast majority of complaints and childish petition signing" fall into the category, you're trying to invalidate a majority of the complaints against the season/finale by shoving them all into a convenient box where you feel they carry less weight.

 

[Lip]

Her death to me was so anticlimactic.

Tell me about it. Ugh.

Both Daenerys and Cersei deserved much better, and again, that doesn't mean who dies or gets the Iron Throne. They deserved a powerful ending, and they felt flat.

I still can't believe what they did to Cersei in this last season. They isolated her from everybody, to a point she didn't have anybody to interact. Cersei is not Dany. She's not Arya or Brienne. Cersei's strenght is in political intrigues. She needed people to interact.

Both Dany and Cersei deserved to go out with a bang.

 

[Lip]

Sansa could have been nicer too and not be so salty towards her.

This is also something that needed more time and development. Sansa's hate towards Dany didn't convince me at all.

 

[Lip]

What's really unfortunate is that Lena Headey wasn't able to win an Emmy for her acting on Game of Thrones. She really should have for Season 4. I was sort of hoping that they'd give her some material to work with this season, so she could be in the running one last time. But this season was mostly just her looking out a window.

I saw a post online that says everything: Lena Headey is a legend. She got paid a million per episode to drink wine and stare at the horizon.

Indeed, a legend.

 

[JimThompson]

Talking about Dany's character in another thread got me to thinking a bit about something else that bothered me with this conclusion. Dany's ending was tragic, but the reason I found it tragic is because she had the potential to be a great leader. They built that part of her story quite well. So her death carries a certain weight with it.

Cersei, on the other hand, was truly an evil character from start to finish. In a perfect world, she would have been murdered by the son she'd created. But her actual death felt like a cheat. She escaped the fate that should have befallen her. Just disappointing.

Anyway, just my two cents.

 

[MaceB]

I think.. in a perfect world, Dany would have tortured Cersei to death... which would be Dany's first step in her decline into madness in King's Landing.

 

[DACrowe]

I personally liked the finale. But how it got there this season was disappointing. I don't think it's bad by any stretch of the imagination (especially compared to most TV) but it was a huge decline from where the series had been. It's even a decline from season 7 in many ways, because it so badly rushed character-defining moments for Daenerys and Jaime.

That said, thematically I like the end, and I think it was beautifully acted, directed, and staged. I also think even if they rushed it, there was plenty of set-up for all of the characters' fates that it was not in the least ruined for me. Daenerys always flirted with becoming a tyrant, it's why we all spent years debating whether she would. I didn't think it would happen... I'm sad I was wrong but not upset at the story save how the final descent should've been established in more than one episode (and without such defensive dialogue being placed in Tyrion/Varys' mouths).

I loved the resolution for Jon, Arya, and especially Sansa. I predicted Arya and Sansa's resolutions years ago, but it is nice to see them come to pass, especially Sansa achieve her dream of reclaiming the Stark home and making it safe and independent. Arya's was fitting, and Jon's was a complete surprise but not an unwelcome one. The grass beneath his feet at the end is a nice touch, hinting the snows will melt and the north will be a new world.

Bran, finally, also caught me be surprise. As it did everyone. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing for so many folks. Beyond the gender critique--which is it still Woke to say a disabled kid can't become king because he's male?--you can see how GRRM laid the groundwork and how he also manipulated people in the show's final two seasons. That's not what I predicted, but that also makes for a nice surprise, but I guess some folks needed it to be Jon or Dany. I'm personally glad it was neither.

Not a great finale, but a satisfying one for me. Season 8's road to it on the other hand leaves something to be desired, but all those saying it ruined the show... I cannot help but wonder if this is just because the ending they wanted in their heads did not happen.

 

[DACrowe]

Sure it is. A story has a beginning, middle, and end. It is judged by how satisfactorily it sets up the threat... how threatening that situation becomes... and how the story resolves itself naturally. It you set up Tom Sawyer as the hero in Act 1 and 2, and then give him no lines and reverse course on his characterization.. letting a different character resolve his main conflict...then that's a problem. It's a flaw with the storytelling... it's not us just complaining because we didn't get the ending we wanted.

You are arguing that the author is above criticism... but there's a whole field of study based on literary criticism. Authors can make poor storytelling decisions, and we have a right to call them out for those decisions when they do.

Are we still talking about the NK? Because it seems to me at the end,, it became clear the bigger transformative aspect of Jon's arc is killing Daenerys. Rushed or not, he loved her and she was the last connection to his past. He thought he was supposed to save a world from Ice, he instead saved it by Fire, and the result is that his heritage is forsaken. There is also the cyclical effect that he is condemned (though much more mercifully) like Ned Stark and banished from this world of politics.

Season 8 has some major problems, who killed the NK is not the big one for me.

Possible.

On the other hand, how do people tend to remember Dexter? Or The Sopranos? The first thing most people seem to recall about those shows is how much they hated their endings.

Be interesting to see how this show is viewed in a year or so.

The Sopranos is probably a good comparison. Some people love the ending, many hate it. At the time A LOT hated it, now I'd say the fanbase is more evenly split. The show however is still remembered as one of TV's all-time greats even if when you bring it up online, there's always the jackass who's like "that ending!"

GoT will probably have a similar legacy, as opposed to Dexter where it was horrible for years before its even worse ending, or even Lost, which kind of ran in place before making a final season that only diehards dug. Sopranos though... yeah I could see that as its legacy, which ain't a bad thing since folks have been celebrating the 20th anniversary of Sopranos all year right now.

 

[CaptainWagner]

The problem with executing Cersei is even with Dany going mad, I can't see her personally murdering Cersei knowing she's pregnant, given everything that's happened with Dany's own attempts at parenthood.

 

[MaceB]

Are we still talking about the NK? Because it seems to me at the end,, it became clear the bigger transformative aspect of Jon's arc is killing Daenerys. Rushed or not, he loved her and she was the last connection to his past. He thought he was supposed to save a world from Ice, he instead saved it by Fire, and the result is that his heritage is forsaken. There is also the cyclical effect that he is condemned (though much more mercifully) like Ned Stark and banished from this world of politics.

Season 8 has some major problems, who killed the NK is not the big one for me.

I guess that means the Lord of Light brought Jon back to kill Dany, and the Dany was not brought about by the Lord of Light like the Red Priestesses believed? GOT is one of those stories that's so dense... you can basically interpret however you want. I suspect that D&D enjoyed that aspect, because it gave them lots of cover. But yeah, I found the Night King arc to be underwhelming to say the least. Everything was mostly cool until I saw Arya flying towards the Night King. It was all down hill from there unfortunately. For me, I find the Mad Queen Dany twist to be much more workable than the Jon/NK twist.

 

[Pennywise]

That's a good question!

 

[Madam-Shogun]

It's strange, I'm just glad it's over. I honestly been irritated with this show as far back as season 5. By the time I got to S8e3 I was done. I rarely drop shows, but after that episode I had enough. Hell I didn't even drop The Walking Dead during Gimple's run. But GoT was different, it had a endpoint, and only one chance to get it right. And they ****in blew it.

FWIW I almost dropped TWD until Angela Kang saved it.

 

[DACrowe]

I guess that means the Lord of Light brought Jon back to kill Dany, and the Dany was not brought about by the Lord of Light like the Red Priestesses believed? GOT is one of those stories that's so dense... you can basically interpret however you want. I suspect that D&D enjoyed that aspect, because it gave them lots of cover. But yeah, I found the Night King arc to be underwhelming to say the least. Everything was mostly cool until I saw Arya flying towards the Night King. It was all down hill from there unfortunately. For me, I find the Mad Queen Dany twist to be much more workable than the Jon/NK twist.

The way I've always looked at it is the White Walkers are like climate change, or any other existential crisis that we all should be rallying to fight, but seldom do (especially in the last 30 years) and we'll pay for it. But at the end of the day, after crises human nature reverts.

Then I read some articles that pointed out something more interesting in this regard: Martin is a fan of the Scouring of the Shire in Return of the King. In that book, it is an epilogue of sorts where Sauromon has corrupted the Shire and turned the good-natured hobbits into creatures every bit as cruel and capricious as man. This is unrelated to the War of the Ring, so it was dropped out of the movie.

ASOIAF/GOT on the other hand make that aspect, the scouring, the focus. It is the human drama (or hobbits) as opposed to the fantasy elements. So like the ROTK book, the evil supernatural threat (the Ring and Others/White Walkers) is defeated, but then humans are still left to build a new world afterward amongst themselves. And then all the goodness of banding together in the first three episodes falls apart. Jaime goes back to Cersei, Daenerys gives into her Fire and Blood instincts and torches a city, and Jon Snow kills her for it and is exiled from the world he saved. All of this thematically makes great sense where the human drama overwhelms the typical fantasy trope of "heroes get together and fight evil together."

Not saying it was perfectly executed--in fact it was way too rushed and I think the tragedy of Daenerys and even Jaime suffered as a result--but it is still there.

 

[BatLobster]

Whether you're sad about how the show ended, or just sad that it ended...let Ramin and Serj soothe the pain.

 

[DACrowe]

Would have been kind of cool if the show ended on Bran and his eyes turning blue, or if at least SOMETHING unexpected happened that showed there was more to this ending.

I'm still just shocked that the whole NK/WW saga was wrapped up and swept under the rug after episode 3...and that this 6-episode season basically had 3 main villains dispatched in the span of 3-4 episodes.

We did have that that.

This is grass growing beyond the Wall. That hasn't happened in thousands of years.... since the creation of the White Walkers and the Long Night. Now that the White Walkers are gone, the snow and ice are melting. That means the Wall will melt. Jon has been "sentenced" to a thawing paradise as spring comes. This likely means the North will also be more temperate and could genuinely compete with the other Six Kingdoms (hence Sansa looking like Elizabeth at the end, who ushered in England's Golden Age).

As Tyrion says, "Ask me in 10 years." The story is over because seemingly the "game of thrones" is settled for this generation. But the world the Starks just inherited is hinted to be on the cusp of major change. Their stories aren't done, and the rules that made this world are literally about to melt away. The wheel keeps turning after we close the book.

 

[Lencho01]

"A Dream of Spring."

 

[blackdragon6]

It's strange, I'm just glad it's over. I honestly been irritated with this show as far back as season 5. By the time I got to S8e3 I was done. I rarely drop shows, but after that episode I had enough. Hell I didn't even drop The Walking Dead during Gimple's run. But GoT was different, it had a endpoint, and only one chance to get it right. And they ****in blew it.

FWIW I almost dropped TWD until Angela Kang saved it.

I actually don't get the appeal of season 6 to tell you the truth.

 

[FunkMiller]

Mark my words, in a year people will start to appriciate the final season and will miss GOT.

In my mind there is no doubt this will go down in history as the greatest TV series of all time.

PS: Now I look for July and the Emmy nominations. Emillia has never been more deserving of a nominations. And Peter Dinklage MUST win with that finale as his tape.

Just like we all appreciate the endings of Lost and Dexter, and really all love The Phantom Menace and Batman V Superman.

The ending of Game Of Thrones will never be regarded as anything other than a rushed and poorly written conclusion to one of the most inventive and fresh television series ever made.