The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[Sian]

Again, the whole trajectory of the trilogy was set by ridiculous release dates, with no scripts in place, that Bob Iger had set. Everyone wanted more time, Kennedy had to fight to get TFA pushed to December when it probably should've been pushed to May of 2016. Look at how much time WB has given Matt Reeves to develop The Batman. Fans got really impatient, but I applaud it, because sometimes time is just needed to get a great script in place.

People complain about the "director hand-off" approach to the sequel trilogy, but that is a result of the release schedule. JJ was not willing to commit to the whole trilogy because it would've meant 0 breaks for 6 years and no time with his family. If you think those high-level decisions don't have major ripple effects onto the creative development of something this massive, then I've got a bridge to sell you.

And it's telling that other content produced during her era that is generally viewed more favorably by fans IE- Rogue One, Mandalorian- she gets 0 credit for. People only want to bring her up when they're looking for someone to blame and direct their rage at. It's revealing.



So you enjoyed the backstory of a Solo, even though he has a mega-depressing fate?

Yes, because I never saw his fate as depressing. Unlike Kylo, Han lived a good many years post ROTJ, and those years were mostly good ones. And because I foolishly believed his son would live to atone for his actions, and that he'd live on through his grandchildren.
Never thought said son would die at thirty feeding his life force to Palpatine's granddaughter, but...there you go.

 

[DarthDaveBanner]

I’m sorry, but I didn’t know that Kathleen was free from criticisms just because she’s a woman

As someone previously pointed out, her track record while running Lucasfilm speaks for itself. And just so we are clear, even if it was a man running Lucasfilm and he made the same decisions that Kathleen had made I would still criticize him.

Unfortunately I have seen a lot of the more vocal haters of the sequel trilogy really let their sexist flag fly under the guise of critiquing her creative decisions. Thankfully not all the fanbase is like this but these loud voices are the reason many outsiders see this fandom as super toxic recently.

 

[Sian]

I don't think she did herself any favours wearing that t shirt with 'The Force is Female' on it!

 

[BatLobster]

Yes, because I never saw his fate as depressing. Unlike Kylo, Han lived a good many years post ROTJ, and those years were mostly good ones. And because I foolishly believed his son would live to atone for his actions, and that he'd live on through his grandchildren.
Never thought said son would die at thirty feeding his life force to Palpatine's granddaughter, but...there you go.

Han was also a much better person than his son, so there's that.

Let's not forget, Kylo Ren isn't just supposed to be Han Solo Jr. There's that whole Darth Vader thing he's got going on. Vader spent most of his life in a prison of his own making, a shell of the man he had the potential to be, hating himself for Padme's death.

Rather than continue to live with the guilt of all the evil he'd done, including actually killing his own father, Ben got to go out on a moral high note- helping destroy the Sith once and for all, and an act of selfless giving/healing for the good of the galaxy, just like his grandpops who he idolized so much. Not to mention, Rey did the same thing for him which is what gave him the opportunity to save his own soul. He owed her one there. The way I see it is he's free now.

And he also never had to suffer the way Anakin did for turning to the dark side. Even just physically speaking-- Anakin made a deal with the devil and literally burned alive for it. So to me the tradeoff is, yeah, he lived a shorter life-- but he still got to go out on his own terms, on the light side, making amends. He was smiling in his last moments.

 

[Sian]

Peculiar how healing Rey was fatal, but Rey never so much as broke a sweat healing Kylo.

 

[BatLobster]

Peculiar how healing Rey was fatal, but Rey never so much as broke a sweat healing Kylo.

Not that peculiar, really. Kylo had taken a fall that he probably shouldn't have even survived and could barely walk. He gave what little life he had left.

 

[henzINNIT]

Not that peculiar, really. Kylo had taken a fall that he probably shouldn't have even survived and could barely walk. He gave what little life he had left.

That and they were both "drained" to near death by Palpatine already.

 

[Donner]

I don't think she did herself any favours wearing that t shirt with 'The Force is Female' on it!

That doesn't excuse the vitriol thrown her way. If wearing a t-shirt that says the Force is Female is enough for sexist fanboys to lose their minds, that's a them problem, not a Kathleen problem.

 

[DarthDaveBanner]

That doesn't excuse the vitriol thrown her way. If wearing a t-shirt that says the Force is Female is enough for sexist fanboys to lose their minds, that's a them problem, not a Kathleen problem.

The T-Shirt she wore specifically as part of a Nike promotional event is somehow more egregious to some fans than Ike "All Black People Look Alike" Perlmutter's comments.

 

[fan4stic]

The T-Shirt she wore specifically as part of a Nike promotional event is somehow more egregious to some fans than Ike "All Black People Look Alike" Perlmutter's comments.

I think there's a difference between the 2.

I don't think some people may not care to talk about real life issues, like that in that way, more than they like to talk about things in regards to fiction. I think I see this as well from another side at times.

Personally, I think the thing doesn't have much sense to it and is a pointless thing to put on a shirt. But, I don't care much past that.

It's like the Rey is a Mary Sue argument. Maybe she is. But there are other things I dislike more and the Mary Sue thing isn't that important enough to me, to really talk about. To me, the stories and use of characters are, in regards to fiction and me thinking it wasn't strongly written. For all the talk of Rian Johnson's agenda, I think all the minorities don't get as much character based attention in TLJ. To me, how the movie operates, isn't strong writing with them and I think, to me, the storyline and character potential aren't used in the way that I'd prefer.

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

Unfortunately I have seen a lot of the more vocal haters of the sequel trilogy really let their sexist flag fly under the guise of critiquing her creative decisions. Thankfully not all the fanbase is like this but these loud voices are the reason many outsiders see this fandom as super toxic recently.

I know. It’s sad and pretty damn pathetic to be honest

All fan bases have their ignorant morons, but unfortunately with Star Wars you see it more often. And what sucks is that a huge chunk of the fans get dumped into that group when they are nothing like them

 

[antsman41]

...about to finish my rewatch of Rebels.

The double combo of the ending to Jedi Night and the full 22 minutes of A World Between Worlds is still more emotional and interesting than this whole sequel trilogy, easily.

While I was fine with interpretation of Luke in TLJ, and liked his sacrifice... it sadly didn’t and will never top the sacrifice by Kanan and the follow through of leading Ezra into the World Between Worlds and the greater impact it had on stopping the Emperor.

Rebels is the best version of “Star Wars” in my mind. That whole of the Ghost team, their heart of the series, along with the advancement of the mythology makes it so important to the rest of Star Wars.

I had so much hope after TFA and throughly enjoy TLJ, but it saddens me on the squandered potential of this sequel trilogy and the future of the universe past TROS. Yes, the “future” of Star Wars is still great with more Mandalorian seasons and this third Filoni cartoon series that will be a soft sequel to Rebels...

But, I literally don’t care to see what Rey/Poe/Finn do after TROS. I hate to say it, yet it’s so true. Even the Black Series figures I have of this sequel trilogy feel like the ugly ducklings of my 50+ 6” collection that proudly are displayed on my office walls.

Yet, I’m at baited breath to see the future of Ahsoka/Sabine/Hera/Rex as well as Ezra and Mando/Cara/Greef/The Child past 6 ABY... and beyond.

 

[Frodo]

Unfortunately I have seen a lot of the more vocal haters of the sequel trilogy really let their sexist flag fly under the guise of critiquing her creative decisions. Thankfully not all the fanbase is like this but these loud voices are the reason many outsiders see this fandom as super toxic recently.

There's a huge amount of sexism in Fandom in general, and its certainly expressed itself in some of the attacks on Kennedy.

At the same time, I have seen alot of bad faith arguments on the other extreme by those dismissing those who disagree with Lucasfilm as sexist or as being an insignificant minority. Its an attempt at marginalization and an attempt to end discussion.

So I really don't see one end of the spectrum as better than the other. They're basically opposite sides of the same coin.

I've seen plenty of bullying and arrogance from fans who've hated these films as I've seen fans who claim to have loved them.

They're both Toxic fanboys and girls, they just happen to be turning their toxicity against each other. In other circumstances, they would probably agree on alot ,and instead turn their toxicity on some else. It just so happens they both consider each other "the enemy" on the Disney era SW films.

I think the discourse has been super toxic because you have both extremes unwilling to accept that someone else has a different opinion. That's basically what it comes down to at the end of the day.

People, for whatever reason, take criticism of a film they like or praise of a film they dislike , personally. Fanboys on either side of this whole discussion certainly haven't been immune to that mindset.

 

[The Chris]

That and they were both "drained" to near death by Palpatine already.

Also kylo was very much still alive when she healed him. She looked very dead when he healed her so I looked at it as a life for a life type thing.

 

[Fincher]

It's funny, because while I can see why the Holdo parts (and maybe the Leia part in space) in and of themselves would be a target for those fans, I thought TLJ not only undercut Rey in terms of her having agency/characterization in favor of focusing on Kylo and Luke, but also undercut her in terms of being powerful compared to The Force Awakens. They made a whole point of Kylo actually being as powerful as she is despite her beating his *** in The Force Awakens, and they had her be tossed around like a ragdoll by Snoke. You can't even say that they did that so she could struggle against and overcome Snoke, because she didn't overcome him. You can't say that it was to build Kylo up as a strong opponent, because he didn't do anything impressive, Snoke was just being an idiot. It doesn't read like anything with a pro-feminist agenda.

Maybe they didn't like that she didn't train with Luke more, but nothing in The Force Awakens actually indicated she would train under him at all, so at most it would mean they had a expectation of what they thought should happen and then it didn't happen enough. Maybe it had an agenda because Luke wasn't doing awesome lightsaber fights like Yoda was...doing awesome lightsaber fights in The Empire Strikes Back? Maybe they're mad that she beat Luke in a fight despite her being angry and that being very useful in lightsaber fights? I don't know, it's confusing. I admit that I haven't gone searching for in-depth discussion of The Last Jedi's supposed agenda because it can get old listening to that stuff on either side of the debate, but this seems like a movie that could p*** off feminists just as easily as anti-feminists, or at least one that's no more pro-feminist, and probably less so, than The Force Awakens.

I also don't know why incels would object to this movie specifically, but then it's not clear to me that incels have a problem with it and that that's not defenders labeling people who dislike it incels.

 

[Sian]

I don't know, I think she was pretty powerful in TLJ. She easily held her own against the Praetorians. She lifted the rocks at the end effortlessly. And she was able to beat Kylo in TFA because:
She essentially copied his fighting skills by reading his mind just after he offered to teach her. Notice how before that she was running away, and only defending herself. After that scene she fought back.
Kylo didn't want to kill her
Kylo had already started to weaken through blood loss, due to both fighting Finn and chasing Rey. The Dark side might be able to use pain to empower a user,but losing a lot of blood weakens the body.

 

[jmc]

There's a huge amount of sexism in Fandom in general, and its certainly expressed itself in some of the attacks on Kennedy.

At the same time, I have seen alot of bad faith arguments on the other extreme by those dismissing those who disagree with Lucasfilm as sexist or as being an insignificant minority. Its an attempt at marginalization and an attempt to end discussion.

So I really don't see one end of the spectrum as better than the other. They're basically opposite sides of the same coin.

I've seen plenty of bullying and arrogance from fans who've hated these films as I've seen fans who claim to have loved them.

They're both Toxic fanboys and girls, they just happen to be turning their toxicity against each other. In other circumstances, they would probably agree on alot ,and instead turn their toxicity on some else. It just so happens they both consider each other "the enemy" on the Disney era SW films.

I think the discourse has been super toxic because you have both extremes unwilling to accept that someone else has a different opinion. That's basically what it comes down to at the end of the day.

People, for whatever reason, take criticism of a film they like or praise of a film they dislike , personally. Fanboys on either side of this whole discussion certainly haven't been immune to that mindset.

I think there's a bit more to that, I think one of the reason the divide became so strong so quickly is there was no real counterargument for TLJ in film media. The whole sexist thing IMO was overblown by miles, specifically by geek and film media, who for reasons I will never been able to understand for the rest of my life seemingly went into bat strongly in favour of TLJ, and were quick to lump those with genuine complaints in with the few actual sexists who didn't like Rey because she was a woman.

Part of the reason I feel the toxicity got to that level is frankly there were few voices with a prominent position online who could give the counter argument for the praise TLJ got, nor were there many who liked that film willing to engage with the other side and actually hear them out. So when many people walked out of the theatre in December 2017 they were left scratching their heads because the film was getting praised to hell, but the film they saw bore no resemblance to that praise. Basically, I think the reason things fell apart was those people didn't feel they were being heard. Battle lines were seemingly drawn very early on and it all went down hill from there. The irony being the next film was more or less panned by both sides, lol.

I think why it's particularly worse with Star Wars is because a lot of people, quite rightfully, feel as if there's been no thought put into this trilogy as a whole. Lucasfilm/Disney haven't had a clear idea as to what the future of the franchise should be let alone what the ST should have been. What has been evident is they tried to attract a fanbase that frankly didn't exist and never will, and by the time they realised they actually needed their existing fans it was too late, which is why TROS is the jumbled mess it is. It's a film trying to please everyone, and in the end ends up pleasing no-one.

 

[Bobber]

I think there's a bit more to that, I think one of the reason the divide became so strong so quickly is there was no real counterargument for TLJ in film media. The whole sexist thing IMO was overblown by miles, specifically by geek and film media, who for reasons I will never been able to understand for the rest of my life seemingly went into bat strongly in favour of TLJ, and were quick to lump those with genuine complaints in with the few actual sexists who didn't like Rey because she was a woman.

Part of the reason I feel the toxicity got to that level is frankly there were few voices with a prominent position online who could give the counter argument for the praise TLJ got, nor were there many who liked that film willing to engage with the other side and actually hear them out. So when many people walked out of the theatre in December 2017 they were left scratching their heads because the film was getting praised to hell, but the film they saw bore no resemblance to that praise. Basically, I think the reason things fell apart was those people didn't feel they were being heard. Battle lines were seemingly drawn very early on and it all went down hill from there. The irony being the next film was more or less panned by both sides, lol.

I think why it's particularly worse with Star Wars is because a lot of people, quite rightfully, feel as if there's been no thought put into this trilogy as a whole. Lucasfilm/Disney haven't had a clear idea as to what the future of the franchise should be let alone what the ST should have been. What has been evident is they tried to attract a fanbase that frankly didn't exist and never will, and by the time they realised they actually needed their existing fans it was too late, which is why TROS is the jumbled mess it is. It's a film trying to please everyone, and in the end ends up pleasing no-one.

I'm sorry, but the hatred for TLJ has been VASTLY louder than the praise.

 

[Sian]

Among the general audience or the critics?

 

[antsman41]

Among the general audience or the critics?

...among the Incels.

 

[Bobber]

Among the general audience or the critics?

Well critics seemed to generally like it, the massive split has been in the fandom.

 

[Donner]

It's okay to not like a movie. It's not okay to harass and send death threats to an actress because she's Asian.

And that's the only thing people will remember about TLJ because of how prevalent it was. It was disgusting and part of the reason why people are wary of this fandom. I mean really, how dare someone attack an actress for doing their job.

And now with certain groups being targeted because of TROS, it just never ends.

 

[Sian]

It's okay to not like a movie. It's not okay to harass and send death threats to an actress because she's Asian.

And that's the only thing people will remember about TLJ because of how prevalent it was. It was disgusting and part of the reason why people are wary of this fandom. I mean really, how dare someone attack an actress for doing their job.

And now with certain groups being targeted because of TROS, it just never ends.

There's an official SW forum I post on, and frankly the amount of Kylo hate is disturbing.
It's fine to dislike a character, but the hate is bordering on fanatical.

As I earlier said to Gotham's Knight, the S W fandom is getting worryingly toxic.

 

[Donner]

There's an official SW forum I post on, and frankly the amount of Kylo hate is disturbing.
It's fine to dislike a character, but the hate is bordering on fanatical.

As I earlier said to Gotham's Knight, the S W fandom is getting worryingly toxic.

My biggest gripe is when people play the Purity Police and shame fans (mostly girls and women) for liking a ship and saying they get off on abuse. It's absolutely disgusting.

 

[DarthDaveBanner]

It's okay to not like a movie. It's not okay to harass and send death threats to an actress because she's Asian.

And that's the only thing people will remember about TLJ because of how prevalent it was. It was disgusting and part of the reason why people are wary of this fandom. I mean really, how dare someone attack an actress for doing their job.

And now with certain groups being targeted because of TROS, it just never ends.

This.

According to my friend who is a MASSIVE Doctor Who fan, the Who fandom is even worse.