The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[Donner]

This.

According to my friend who is a MASSIVE Doctor Who fan, the Who fandom is even worse.

Yikes! That's on another level.

 

[Sian]

My biggest gripe is when people play the Purity Police and shame fans (mostly girls and women) for liking a ship and saying they get off on abuse. It's absolutely disgusting.

They choose to forget Kylo Ren is a work of fiction and it's perfectly fine to have sexual/romantic fantasies about a work of fiction. I doubt very much if any of them would entertain such thoughts about real people!
As I said earlier, I happened to mention that I liked the character on a newspaper comments page ,of all things, and received a barrage of verbal fury from a lady who is a real life abu se victim and actually told me off about it! When I told her I was indecently assaulted as a child, she told me off all over again.
I wish this harassment of people simply over a fantasy character would stop.

 

[jmc]

I'm sorry, but the hatred for TLJ has been VASTLY louder than the praise.

And I literally just explained why.

 

[Bobber]

And I literally just explained why.

You explained that a lot of fans felt OSTRACIZED by the critical gatekeepers who decided that The Last Jedi was a masterpiece, and didn't allow for any other opinion.

And I feel that's absolute nonsense. The backlash on TLJ was there from day one. I will however say that I don't think every hater of TLJ is some sort of incel who hates the film because of THE WOMEN and THE POLITICAL AGENDA. Those people are unfortunately out there, and surprisingly many, but they're not the majority.

Some people just dislike the film. And that's totally fine. The film certainly does have some issues.

As for fans being upset that there was no clear vision across the trilogy? Perhaps that is true, but I'll maintain that that didn't ultimately ring true until the release of Rise of Skywalker. And that's because JJ wanted to erase everything TLJ did. If a director had come in and picked up on the threads Rian Johnson set in motion, we could've ended with a much more coherent trilogy.

 

[Fincher]

The thing is, any group of significant size is going to have bad people in it. Star Wars has a huge fanbase, so even a tiny fragment of Star Wars fans can go online and make everyone look bad. But when people badmouth Star Wars fans as a collective and look down on them, who is the good group of people that they're being compared to? If you went back in time far enough and asked people (at least in the US) what group doesn't have bad people in it, the answer would be clergy, but we know that's not the case. Police? No. Both of them have done things worse than harassing an actress online. Doctors are good because they want to help people, right? Well, there's that fertility doctor who impregnated multiple patients with his own sperm. Should we judge doctors as a group because of that guy? Man, f*** doctors, impregnating patients without their permission. Doctors are the worst.

And the thing is, if you compare Star Wars fans to Lord of the Rings fans or Die Hard fans...Star Wars fans are Lord of the Rings fans, and Lord of the Rings fans are Die Hard fans, and Die Hard fans are Ghostbusters fans, and Ghostbusters fans are Pretty Woman fans. Star Wars fans are just people, and some people are a******s. This othering of fanbases is just adding to the fragmentation and hostility of our modern society, like we don't have enough of that.

 

[fan4stic]

They choose to forget Kylo Ren is a work of fiction and it's perfectly fine to have sexual/romantic fantasies about a work of fiction. I doubt very much if any of them would entertain such thoughts about real people!
As I said earlier, I happened to mention that I liked the character on a newspaper comments page ,of all things, and received a barrage of verbal fury from a lady who is a real life abu se victim and actually told me off about it! When I told her I was indecently assaulted as a child, she told me off all over again.
I wish this harassment of people simply over a fantasy character would stop.

Why does something being fictional make it right?

It's funny, because while I can see why the Holdo parts (and maybe the Leia part in space) in and of themselves would be a target for those fans, I thought TLJ not only undercut Rey in terms of her having agency/characterization in favor of focusing on Kylo and Luke, but also undercut her in terms of being powerful compared to The Force Awakens. They made a whole point of Kylo actually being as powerful as she is despite her beating his *** in The Force Awakens, and they had her be tossed around like a ragdoll by Snoke. You can't even say that they did that so she could struggle against and overcome Snoke, because she didn't overcome him. You can't say that it was to build Kylo up as a strong opponent, because he didn't do anything impressive, Snoke was just being an idiot. It doesn't read like anything with a pro-feminist agenda.

Maybe they didn't like that she didn't train with Luke more, but nothing in The Force Awakens actually indicated she would train under him at all, so at most it would mean they had a expectation of what they thought should happen and then it didn't happen enough. Maybe it had an agenda because Luke wasn't doing awesome lightsaber fights like Yoda was...doing awesome lightsaber fights in The Empire Strikes Back? Maybe they're mad that she beat Luke in a fight despite her being angry and that being very useful in lightsaber fights? I don't know, it's confusing. I admit that I haven't gone searching for in-depth discussion of The Last Jedi's supposed agenda because it can get old listening to that stuff on either side of the debate, but this seems like a movie that could p*** off feminists just as easily as anti-feminists, or at least one that's no more pro-feminist, and probably less so, than The Force Awakens.

I also don't know why incels would object to this movie specifically, but then it's not clear to me that incels have a problem with it and that that's not defenders labeling people who dislike it incels.

In thinking about, that's an issue I bring up about the movie. For all the talk of diversity and such, I think the people who get the most focus as characters are the white men. While I think the non white/non male characters get lesser treatments.

Leia is put in a coma.

i think either Holdo is used as a mouthpiece without much else, or she's relegated to an police chief stereotype or maybe flirting with Poe(? I don't know) (depending on who you talk to).

Rose is again, i think, to me, is more of a mouthpiece.

Finn is sanctioned, to me, into I think odd sideplot where he has barebones effect on the plot and, to me, barely learns more than what I think he'd already learned.

Poe is given his concept of characterization, into... hothead, who has to lean patience, so the movie can, I think, vaguely hint at him becoming leader, even though Leia's still alive. Why is he giving orders? Why is no one listening to Leia?

Rey is there to listen to Kylo and Luke talk about their problems. She gets a, to me, vague character arc, that ends with her being told she's nothing and her parents sold her and looking sad about it, then she lifts rocks and that's it.

Meanwhile Kylo gets his big plot wrangling moment where he kills Snoke, takes over the first order, and such.

And Luke gets, to me an interesting in concept story (I think, to me, it's not executed strongly), where he's angry and bitter about his mistake and has to re-discover his drive again or something.

As for why some members may not like it, I think some may be too much on the offensive and being defensive about things, seeing Luke being a lost old man as a shot against him and his male ego or something, with Rey being the woman whose clearly written to be in the right, to them. Similar with the Poe, where he has a woman talking down to him, some may see this as the movie taking shots at toxic masculinity (I think I've seen some from the other side say something similar, only seeing it as a positive). How many people on that side though, I wonder, are against some things, based on, what they see as "SJW"-types, being for it? How many people complain about things for views? I keep vague eye on some of these channels on youtube. And Tessa Thompson, a non white/non straight woman, made the claim of changing the name of MIB to Humans/People In Black or something and, as far as I remember, she barely gets a few videos about it from anti-SJW types. Brie Larson, the blonde white girl, gets continuous flack for her thing from awhile ago. Some of the similar anti-SJW people are, as far as I can tell, giving applause at Rosario Dawson, the non-white/non-straight woman, being cast as Ahsoka, while some of them were against potential rumors of Brie Larson being given the role. So, I don't know...

Personally I don't know if that's the intention or not. But my perception is, I think these movies don't do much with the diversity that they have. Even Rose, an asian woman, I think looks like she's from an anime? Huh?

And I think the stories aren't strong uses of the character's and their story potential, for the most part, as a whole.

It's okay to not like a movie. It's not okay to harass and send death threats to an actress because she's Asian.

And that's the only thing people will remember about TLJ because of how prevalent it was. It was disgusting and part of the reason why people are wary of this fandom. I mean really, how dare someone attack an actress for doing their job.

And now with certain groups being targeted because of TROS, it just never ends.

Considering I guess some of the treatment Ahmed Best and Jake Lloyd got, it's not something that I think is necessarily surprising.

I have, myself, wondered if a portion of haters are more hating on the actress for the character and not based on her race, and using racial insults to do it, if that's what's happened?

There's an official SW forum I post on, and frankly the amount of Kylo hate is disturbing.
It's fine to dislike a character, but the hate is bordering on fanatical.

As I earlier said to Gotham's Knight, the S W fandom is getting worryingly toxic.

He's a fictional character. Why is the hate for him anymore disturbing than some of the affection?

Of all the things, I think I would regard as particularly toxic, dislike for the fictional character Kylo, is low on my list.

 

[Donner]

You don't get it. Men and boys are allowed to consume whatever content they like and no one is giving them grief for it or acting like if they like a certain character it must mean that they're a certain way in real life. The difference here is that girls and women ship a fictional relationship and like a fictional character and people (mostly men) judge and shame them for it and act as the Purity Police. It's a big effing problem and it's just par for the course for fandoms that have women in it.

It's never wrong to be a fan of a fictional character. It's fantasy.

Remember when video games and Marilyn Manson were being blamed for gun violence and the rational voices of the world fought back against that ridiculous idea? Remember when there used to be a regulatory body overseeing movies to make sure "appropriate" content was in them and people were rightfully upset that it was censorship? This is the same thing only the people that benefited from liberating the arts are now judging fans for the content they consume.

One poster here even went on a tangent about how Reylos must get off on real life abuse and it's one of the most disturbing and disgusting posts I have ever seen on this entire site.

 

[Gothamsknight]

While the people who complain about diversity and women are not the majority, it still represents a larger problem in not just the fandom, but todays world. One thing I've observed over the past few years is how some people view TLJ as an example of a culture war on THEIR political beliefs, even though the film isn't doing that. it shows that these disgusting people, whoever they are, do this because they have larger issues at hand. People who don't even seem like star wars fans are going "wtf happened to this series i loved as a kid?" and that bothers me because they're taking an innocent movie and somehow equating it to their stupid fake "culture war" they've built up in their heads. TLJ is just a movie, and it's a movie about space wizards and Aliens. It seems to me that the scum who take issue with the diversity or women do so because everything in the world, to them, is about politics and how much they hate liberals.

I remember 2 people flipping out once because Laura Dern had purple hair, and one told me that the purple hair makes him think of liberals. how the heck did he put those 2 things together? Its not the movies fault, its the persons fault. They always claim they don't have a problem with diversity or women, yet they complain about it at every turn. From Star wars to Birds of Prey. They always claim they don't like it to be "forced" when in actuality, they just don't want these people to be who they are. They'll claim "but nobody complained about ripley", but that's because they see that movie through a nostalgic lens where, according to them, there was no culture war at the time, which is BS. it's a serious issue in fandom today, and sadly, I see that it's just getting worse.

Just remember, these are the people who I've heard say more than once that death threats towards celebrities is what they signed up for.

 

[Fincher]

While the people who complain about diversity and women are not the majority, it still represents a larger problem in not just the fandom, but todays world. One thing I've observed over the past few years is how some people view TLJ as an example of a culture war on THEIR political beliefs, even though the film isn't doing that. it shows that these disgusting people, whoever they are, do this because they have larger issues at hand. People who don't even seem like star wars fans are going "wtf happened to this series i loved as a kid?" and that bothers me because they're taking an innocent movie and somehow equating it to their stupid fake "culture war" they've built up in their heads. TLJ is just a movie, and it's a movie about space wizards and Aliens. It seems to me that the scum who take issue with the diversity or women do so because everything in the world, to them, is about politics and how much they hate liberals.

I remember 2 people flipping out once because Laura Dern had purple hair, and one told me that the purple hair makes him think of liberals. how the heck did he put those 2 things together? Its not the movies fault, its the persons fault. They always claim they don't have a problem with diversity or women, yet they complain about it at every turn. From Star wars to Birds of Prey. They always claim they don't like it to be "forced" when in actuality, they just don't want these people to be who they are. They'll claim "but nobody complained about ripley", but that's because they see that movie through a nostalgic lens where, according to them, there was no culture war at the time, which is BS. it's a serious issue in fandom today, and sadly, I see that it's just getting worse.

Just remember, these are the people who I've heard say more than once that death threats towards celebrities is what they signed up for.

I think it's a response to feminists saying, "This is bad because it's fridging," "That's bad because it doesn't pass the Bechdel Test," etc. And I didn't agree with the moralizing coming from that direction, but this is just the same thing in the opposite direction. And then everyone who doesn't like a movie gets called racist, sexist, whatever, and everyone who does like it gets called an SJW or whatever, and can't we just love it or hate it or be neutral on it and call it a day? If people like The Last Jedi, good for them. If they think Kylo Ren is mad sexy, more power to them. I don't think Ghostbusters 2016 was wrong any more than the original Ghostbusters was wrong. They're just movies, and either they work for you or they don't.

 

[fan4stic]

You don't get it. Men and boys are allowed to consume whatever content they like and no one is giving them grief for it or acting like if they like a certain character it must mean that they're a certain way in real life. The difference here is that girls and women ship a fictional relationship and like a fictional character and people (mostly men) judge and shame them for it and act as the Purity Police. It's a big effing problem and it's just par for the course for fandoms that have women in it.

It's never wrong to be a fan of a fictional character. It's fantasy.

Remember when video games and Marilyn Manson were being blamed for gun violence and the rational voices of the world fought back against that ridiculous idea? Remember when there used to be a regulatory body overseeing movies to make sure "appropriate" content was in them and people were rightfully upset that it was censorship? This is the same thing only the people that benefited from liberating the arts are now judging fans for the content they consume.

I think men and boys have been given issues for certain things. I've shamed myself for things I like and/or have liked, including things similar to reylo, sometimes directly and others genderflipped. I think men have shamed other men for some stuff.

I think there's a difference between liking a character and/or ship and defending a character and/or ship, to the point where I think it's aggressive or those things are made out to be important. In some cases, I think some parts of those ship fandoms, whether male or female, can take it out on people as well, if they don't get what they want.

I don't keep up with that stuff.

While the people who complain about diversity and women are not the majority, it still represents a larger problem in not just the fandom, but todays world. One thing I've observed over the past few years is how some people view TLJ as an example of a culture war on THEIR political beliefs, even though the film isn't doing that. it shows that these disgusting people, whoever they are, do this because they have larger issues at hand. People who don't even seem like star wars fans are going "wtf happened to this series i loved as a kid?" and that bothers me because they're taking an innocent movie and somehow equating it to their stupid fake "culture war" they've built up in their heads. TLJ is just a movie, and it's a movie about space wizards and Aliens. It seems to me that the scum who take issue with the diversity or women do so because everything in the world, to them, is about politics and how much they hate liberals.

Some, by a similar measure have viewed as affirmation of their perceptions.

I don't know if I'd say it shows that with certainty, to the point of suggesting them scum and disgusting.

I remember 2 people flipping out once because Laura Dern had purple hair, and one told me that the purple hair makes him think of liberals. how the heck did he put those 2 things together? Its not the movies fault, its the persons fault. They always claim they don't have a problem with diversity or women, yet they complain about it at every turn. From Star wars to Birds of Prey. They always claim they don't like it to be "forced" when in actuality, they just don't want these people to be who they are. They'll claim "but nobody complained about ripley", but that's because they see that movie through a nostalgic lens where, according to them, there was no culture war at the time, which is BS. it's a serious issue in fandom today, and sadly, I see that it's just getting worse.

I don't know how many people claim there was no culture war. But I think there's a difference in how things can be represented from back then, to them, now, and such. I'm not inclined to think it's false that some can look for something to complain about, but that doesn't mean a movie/show isn't presenting things that lean political in that way.

 

[Donner]

If you don't keep up with that stuff, then I don't think your opinion holds much weight. It seems like a classic "If I don't see it, it doesn't exist" type of deal.

 

[fan4stic]

If you don't keep up with that stuff, then I don't think your opinion holds much weight. It seems like a classic "If I don't see it, it doesn't exist" type of deal.

I wasn't speaking against the existence of some things. That meant more about the gun stuff and such. I'm sorry for causing a misunderstanding.

 

[Donner]

S'all good, man.

 

[jmc]

You explained that a lot of fans felt OSTRACIZED by the critical gatekeepers who decided that The Last Jedi was a masterpiece, and didn't allow for any other opinion.

And I feel that's absolute nonsense. The backlash on TLJ was there from day one. I will however say that I don't think every hater of TLJ is some sort of incel who hates the film because of THE WOMEN and THE POLITICAL AGENDA. Those people are unfortunately out there, and surprisingly many, but they're not the majority.

Some people just dislike the film. And that's totally fine. The film certainly does have some issues.

As for fans being upset that there was no clear vision across the trilogy? Perhaps that is true, but I'll maintain that that didn't ultimately ring true until the release of Rise of Skywalker. And that's because JJ wanted to erase everything TLJ did. If a director had come in and picked up on the threads Rian Johnson set in motion, we could've ended with a much more coherent trilogy.

Perhaps? It's been paramount since Luke through that lightsaber over his shoulder.

 

[BatLobster]

The thing that bugs me about the reaction to the lightsaber throw is while yes, it happened to be another writer/director that made the choice, people seem to act as if writers don't bait the audience to subvert their expectations within their own work...like ALL the time. I'm not saying JJ would've made the same choice, but what if he had done something similar? Would it still be inconsistent? Cause there's nothing about the end of TFA that assures you Luke is just going to accept the call to action. He looks more troubled than anything in his reaction to Rey at the end of TFA.

To be completely honest, the throw didn't really shock me. It was more of a "Oh ok, they're going all in on the reluctant master angle here straight away, got it". I mean, the trailer featured Luke saying "It's time for the Jedi to end." The fact that we were getting a more cynical/reluctant Luke was something we had all been clued in on many months before the film came out, and people were stilled hyped. That's the thing that shocked me about the TLJ backlash, I felt the marketing was very transparent about the general direction of the story and definitely prepped me well for what to expect.

I can't help but feel that with more and more time and distance, TLJ is going to be emerge as the real gem of the trilogy. Not that I'm saying it's a masterpiece or on par with Empire or anything, but to me it's the one film in the trilogy that really works as a standalone piece. TFA and TROS feel a bit like a TV pilot and a season finale, they bookend the mystery box storytelling of this trilogy-- but TLJ is sitting in the middle as the most 'complete' movie of the bunch. IMHO.

 

[Sian]

The thing that bugs me about the reaction to the lightsaber throw is while yes, it happened to be another writer/director that made the choice, people seem to act as if writers don't bait the audience to subvert their expectations within their own work...like ALL the time. I'm not saying JJ would've made the same choice, but what if he had done something similar? Would it still be inconsistent? Cause there's nothing about the end of TFA that assures you Luke is just going to accept the call to action. He looks more troubled than anything in his reaction to Rey at the end of TFA.

To be completely honest, the throw didn't really shock me. It was more of a "Oh ok, they're going all in on the reluctant master angle here straight away, got it". I mean, the trailer featured Luke saying "It's time for the Jedi to end." The fact that we were getting a more cynical/reluctant Luke was something we had all been clued in on many months before the film came out, and people were stilled hyped. That's the thing that shocked me about the TLJ backlash, I felt the marketing was very transparent about the general direction of the story and definitely prepped me well for what to expect.

I can't help but feel that with more and more time and distance, TLJ is going to be emerge as the real gem of the trilogy. Not that I'm saying it's a masterpiece or on par with Empire or anything, but to me it's the one film in the trilogy that really works as a standalone piece. TFA and TROS feel a bit like a TV pilot and a season finale, they bookend the mystery box storytelling of this trilogy-- but TLJ is sitting in the middle as the most 'complete' movie of the bunch. IMHO.

The problem is, far too many fans expected the OT cast to be exactly the same as they were forty years ago. They chose not to accept that people get more cynical as they age. Can anyone honestly believe that a man who earned a living flying around the galaxy having adventures would be happy as the dutiful husband of a career politician? Han and Leia still loved each other, TFA showed that, but the vast differences in their personalities would have always come between them.
And although Luke's exile was due to one tragic mistake, he had started to realise the flaws in the Jedi teachings - flaws Lucas himself showed in the PT. What the first two sequels tried to do was inject a touch of realism into a fantasy film, and I thought it worked rather well.
Which is why I found the pandering to the more toxic fans that is TROS so jarring. And it hasn't worked. The amount of hate is astonishing, continuous and frankly disturbing. I was trolled on another forum for suggesting Han and
Leia weren't cut out to be parents. I love those characters, but their failings were talked about a lot during promotion for TFA. You would have thought they were someone's beloved relatives they way I was ranted at!
Worse....the hatred of Kylo Ren is starting to extend to Adam.
One poster called him an 'overrated, over hyped actor', another said he he only got the'lead role' because he is a 'privileged white male'.
Whatever beef people have with Kylo Ren, they have no right to troll the actor playing him. I loathe and detest Ramsey Bolton and Joffrey Baratheon in GoT. But the actors playing them are lovely people.

 

[DarthDaveBanner]

While the people who complain about diversity and women are not the majority, it still represents a larger problem in not just the fandom, but todays world. One thing I've observed over the past few years is how some people view TLJ as an example of a culture war on THEIR political beliefs, even though the film isn't doing that. it shows that these disgusting people, whoever they are, do this because they have larger issues at hand. People who don't even seem like star wars fans are going "wtf happened to this series i loved as a kid?" and that bothers me because they're taking an innocent movie and somehow equating it to their stupid fake "culture war" they've built up in their heads. TLJ is just a movie, and it's a movie about space wizards and Aliens. It seems to me that the scum who take issue with the diversity or women do so because everything in the world, to them, is about politics and how much they hate liberals.

I remember 2 people flipping out once because Laura Dern had purple hair, and one told me that the purple hair makes him think of liberals. how the heck did he put those 2 things together? Its not the movies fault, its the persons fault. They always claim they don't have a problem with diversity or women, yet they complain about it at every turn. From Star wars to Birds of Prey. They always claim they don't like it to be "forced" when in actuality, they just don't want these people to be who they are. They'll claim "but nobody complained about ripley", but that's because they see that movie through a nostalgic lens where, according to them, there was no culture war at the time, which is BS. it's a serious issue in fandom today, and sadly, I see that it's just getting worse.

Just remember, these are the people who I've heard say more than once that death threats towards celebrities is what they signed up for.

I have seen (through morbid curiosity) videos and posts that have got thousands of likes which seriously equate what Disney has done to Star Wars with the Nazis burning books...

 

[Marvolo]

Found this piece of artwork on a YouTube video, and ****ing hell if it doesnt just piss me off again.



Rey and Kylo battling the Knights of Ren in Vader's castle in front of that massive window while xwings and ties battle right outside the window.

Ya know I may get over most of ROS and eventually become apathetic towards most of it, but I will never get over the climax of ROS and Ben's redemption or death not taking place on Mustafar. The place where Anakin died and Vader was born. It's the perfect place for Kylo to die and Ben to be reborn. The perfect place for Ben to succeed where Anakin failed. The perfect ****ing place for the Jedi to conquer the dark side.

 

[Fincher]

The thing that bugs me about the reaction to the lightsaber throw is while yes, it happened to be another writer/director that made the choice, people seem to act as if writers don't bait the audience to subvert their expectations within their own work...like ALL the time. I'm not saying JJ would've made the same choice, but what if he had done something similar? Would it still be inconsistent? Cause there's nothing about the end of TFA that assures you Luke is just going to accept the call to action. He looks more troubled than anything in his reaction to Rey at the end of TFA.

For me, the issue wasn't that he rejected the call. It was that it was presented in a flippant way that was contrary to the dramatic nature of The Force Awakens' ending. Sometimes things are presented one way in order to subvert expectations when it goes another, but it can be the case that the first way is better than the subversion. Imagine if in Return of the Jedi Luke went to Yoda and dramatically said, "I know Vader is my father," and Yoda laughed at him for believing Vader. It would make Return of the Jedi worse because it undermines something that was good about The Empire Strikes Back. The lightsaber throw is a lesser version of that.

I can't help but feel that with more and more time and distance, TLJ is going to be emerge as the real gem of the trilogy. Not that I'm saying it's a masterpiece or on par with Empire or anything, but to me it's the one film in the trilogy that really works as a standalone piece. TFA and TROS feel a bit like a TV pilot and a season finale, they bookend the mystery box storytelling of this trilogy-- but TLJ is sitting in the middle as the most 'complete' movie of the bunch. IMHO.

I don't agree that it stands up well on its own, but it's also not a standalone movie. It's supposed to follow from the "pilot" that The Force Awakens is, that's its job as a movie. Being able to stand alone is neither something it needs to do nor something it has the luxury of doing.

 

[Sian]

0

Found this piece of artwork on a YouTube video, and ****ing hell if it doesnt just piss me off again.



Rey and Kylo battling the Knights of Ren in Vader's castle in front of that massive window while xwings and ties battle right outside the window.

Ya know I may get over most of ROS and eventually become apathetic towards most of it, but I will never get over the climax of ROS and Ben's redemption or death not taking place on Mustafar. The place where Anakin died and Vader was born. It's the perfect place for Kylo to die and Ben to be reborn. The perfect place for Ben to succeed where Anakin failed. The perfect ****ing place for the Jedi to conquer the dark side.

The worse thing about TROS is you can see it could have been truly great....but Abrams and Terrio's obsession with the Twins, and the desire to make Rey the only character that mattered destroyed it.

 

[Bobber]

I really wish this whole "the chosen one" trope would die.
It didn't work in the prequels, and it didn't work in the sequels. It's a worn out cliché, and it needs to be put out to pasture.

 

[BatLobster]

For me, the issue wasn't that he rejected the call. It was that it was presented in a flippant way that was contrary to the dramatic nature of The Force Awakens' ending. Sometimes things are presented one way in order to subvert expectations when it goes another, but it can be the case that the first way is better than the subversion. Imagine if in Return of the Jedi Luke went to Yoda and dramatically said, "I know Vader is my father," and Yoda laughed at him for believing Vader. It would make Return of the Jedi worse because it undermines something that was good about The Empire Strikes Back. The lightsaber throw is a lesser version of that.

That's fair, and I get that. I think I'm more forgiving of the tonal curveball there, because even though I love the last scene of scene on its own (The Jedi Steps )-- at the same time, I always thought the cliffhanger ending of TFA was a bit cheap and wrote the next movie into an awkward corner in terms of structure. There's really no dramatic reason for that scene to exist within TFA other than to put Mark Hamill's face on screen and send the audience home happy. For all intends and purposes the film could've ended after Rey takes off to the Falcon. I kind of take a major issue with using Luke as a mystery/McGuffin for the entire film in the first place, but that's another story.

Oddly, I think subverting the moment retroactively gives it more value in terms of Rey's arc. Rey's character flaw in the first two films is trying to pass the buck and never fully accepting her call/destiny. I mean really, to end the film with her trying to hand the saber off after her big force grab moment, once again backpedals on her accepting of the call. Part of that is idolizing the legend of Luke and expecting him to fix everything. So from a character perspective, I think having a nice bucket of cold water dumped on her head there feels right. Even though it's a bit jarring for the audience too (as Rey somewhat fills the function of an audience surrogate character, and we both have a pre-conceived notion of how Luke would act), I think that one saber toss really effectively sets up both Rey and Luke's character journeys for the film.

I don't agree that it stands up well on its own, but it's also not a standalone movie. It's supposed to follow from the "pilot" that The Force Awakens is, that's its job as a movie. Being able to stand alone is neither something it needs to do nor something it has the luxury of doing.

I think it still follows the plot and advances the themes in the necessary ways, while functioning as a contained narrative-- which is something I like in a sequel and tends to elevate the best ones, in my mind. Movies like T2 or The Dark Knight (or Empire), I feel I can turn on any time and enjoy on their own. They are their own distinct entities. There's no need for me to watch the original first. Again, I'm not saying TLJ quite reaches those levels of greatness, but I can appreciate Rian aspiring to make that kind of sequel. And to me, Rey and Kylo's relationship was the most interesting thing introduced in TFA, so I think TLJ took the ball from TFA and ran with it where it counted most.

 

[Brother Jack]

The saber toss scene is a problem of tone. It comes across as comedic, undermining not only the audience's expectation but, in a way, their dramatic connection to the moment. If Luke had just dropped the saber it would have communicated the same idea but without the implied comedy. That's the issue with TLJ as a whole; Johnson has a ton of great ideas and the means to execute them, but to quote George, he went a little too far in some places. Which I think might've been a product of him not having experience in that kind of large-scale blockbuster filmmaking. So you have a film with some truly incredible things in it that's too long and tonally schizophrenic.

 

[fan4stic]

Found this piece of artwork on a YouTube video, and ****ing hell if it doesnt just piss me off again.



Rey and Kylo battling the Knights of Ren in Vader's castle in front of that massive window while xwings and ties battle right outside the window.

Ya know I may get over most of ROS and eventually become apathetic towards most of it, but I will never get over the climax of ROS and Ben's redemption or death not taking place on Mustafar. The place where Anakin died and Vader was born. It's the perfect place for Kylo to die and Ben to be reborn. The perfect place for Ben to succeed where Anakin failed. The perfect ****ing place for the Jedi to conquer the dark side.

I suggest there are places Anakin failed before that. I don't care about Kylo enough to care as much where that'd happen. Though I'm not sure it would've fit the storyline.

 

[BatLobster]

The sabre toss scene is a problem of tone. It comes across as comedic, undermining not only the audience's expectation but, in a way, their dramatic connection to the moment. If Luke had just dropped the sabre it would have communicated the same idea but without the implied comedy. That's the issue with TLJ as a whole; Johnson has a ton of great ideas and the means to execute them, but to quote George, he went a little too far in some places. Which I think might've been a product of him not having experience in that kind of large-scale blockbuster filmmaking. So you have a film with some truly incredible things in it that's too long and tonally schizophrenic.

I don't disagree that it's a bit tonally 'off', but I guess where I draw the line is I don't find it movie-breaking nor saga-breaking the way some people treat the moment. The Hux gag in the beginning is more distracting to me. But other than those two moments, I'm fine with most of the humor in the film. I used to think TLJ had some pacing/editing issues too but hoo-boy, watching TLJ after TROS, the movie now feels really well-paced in comparison. Even Canto Bight flies right by for me now.