The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[Donner]

I hate Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey with a fiery burning passion, but I would never tell women to consume more "appropriate" content to protect their fragile selves. Women are smart enough not to internalize fiction.

 

[godisawesome]

Saying over and over (and over and over and over) again that Kylo is a "neo-nazi school shooter" doesn't make it true. And the implication of repeating that when Reylos exist and the Ben/Rey pairing is the most popular in the ST is disturbing to say the least. You really have a knack for making women feel ashamed for the content they consume. How woke

I think you need to take a step back and evaluate what your words really mean. You're over-doing it with these essay posts about how sexist the ST is without realizing that you're judging those that ship two characters by repeatedly comparing one of them to a Nazi and those people are mostly women. It screams misogyny.

This is a long article, but it explains what I'm saying above.

Okay.

I know there are some arguments and points that I can’t make myself in response, and I can’t just use anecdotes about female fans with a different perspective from you, so I‘m going to try to debate back without looking to insult you at all (and if I do, tell me so, please) or to make sweeping abolished statements about the Reylo fanbase (something that I know I’ve done on other boards, and can’t do in this situation)...

...But I am going to try and dispute some of your points.

First, to explain why I do think that it can be accurate to label Reylo as an abusive and toxic relationship, but not t9 rely on myself, a straight white guy as the authority here... I present two articles:

First, an article critical of the TROS’s take on the pairing and assessing it as glorifying abuse from a female fan on a fan site - Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Glorifies Abuse and Assault Against Women. Second, the published-in-Star-Wars-Insider-193 article “Resistance Reborn” by Tricia Barr, which likewise identifies TLJ’s story of being one of an abusive manipulation.

Those are two women who share my opinion that the film version of the paring is toxic and abusive - I have no authority to really stand there and argue it in the way they can as women.

Onwards...

Yes, Anti-Reylo fans can be misogynistic, as can regular Reylo fans. And both are almost certainly made up of people who aren’t. Morons who digitally harass and bully people over their fandom are bad in the same way that jack@$$es who taunted Boyega and Tran are. Bigotry is not directly tied to any specific fandom save for the most deprived and obvious material.

I can’t judge the political opinions, personal believes, or moral standards of someone who’s a Reylo fan - not only would that be unethical, but it also wouldn’t make any damn sense: people are fans of Darth Vader, Palpatine, Lex Luthor, and literally almost any other successful villain or “heel-turned” vigilante, and yet almost none of them actually respect or believe any bit of their creeds are actually accurate or moral.

They’re villains, and they’re fun to be fans of as villains. Being a fan does not equal idolizing the villain.

I would be shocked to meet an actual female Reylo fan in real life who was as misogynistic as I and others feel the pairing is. If I did make such a judgement, that would be a failure on me. And as an abstract idea of just “Rey + Kylo = Love!” ‘ship, I can’t very well judge it, because that’s not on screen, is it?

...But that doesn’t mean I can’t have an opinion about the relationship on film, or how how shallow or deep a taste for the on film version may be in order to like it, does it?

Like, Kylo as a character was objectively portrayed as a murderer of his fellow students by Rian Johnson in TLJ; Charles Soule coming in years later to try and retcon and soften that moment up in comics has little to do with the film that 95% of the movie audience has seen or will see.

The First Order, like the Empire, are explicitly tied to Nazi’s in design, ethos, and as inspirations, with the FO having a “resurgent fascism” and “radicalized youth” factor as per most LFL sources. Kylo is a part of the FO.

Understand: I do choose to use the real-world parallels as an argumentative device while knowing how proactive they can be. And I do mean to be provactive when using them - they’re part of the “pathos” element of my argument, along with “logos” and “ethos.” A controlled tyoe of Poe a five, mind you; I do now want to be needling people just for the purpose of needling people - a “pathos” argumentative tactic is only ethical when used with logic and when sincerely meant for persuasion.

And I am aware that there are clearly misogynists in the Anti-Reylo camp, and while I believe there are also certainly some misogynists in the Reylo camp too (as I’ve read a few too many ugly postings by male Reylo fans elsewhere, and I’ll confess if a guy who’s a fan of the paring then reveals they support Trump...well, there I’m not shocked)....

...I don’t think criticizing the Reylo pairing the way I do is inherently misogynistic, and I do want to try avoiding misogynistic myself in the argument... and thus far, I don’t think I’ve crossed that line.

 

[Donner]

I think your arguments are hyperbolic, especially when you post in 4 separate threads about the "Neo-Nazi school shooter." I'm German and I know what Neo-Nazis look and sound like so I vehemently disagree with your characterization and I feel like you're using the worst descriptors you can come up with in order to hit hard just how badly you hate the pairing. That's what screams misogyny to me. You're not just saying you think the relationship is problematic (which can of course be argued), you're saying it's so problematic because one half of the pair is the worst person you could possibly think of and how could anyone be okay with that.

I personally think the pairing of Rey and Kylo is the least of the ST's problems when it comes to sexism. I wanted a lead female character with feminine qualities and love, not a virginal child with no attachments and all the power (from her male relative no doubt).

 

[BatLobster]

Promoting Kylo to male lead over Finn doesn’t require pretending that a Neo-Nazi school shooter is an inherently sympathetic concept, or giving Finn a boring and unambitious story.

I just want to address this real quick.

Just because you found Finn's story boring (and to be fair, so did I at first although it grew on me a bit over time) doesn't mean Rian Johnson did. He wrote it and it still accounts for a lot of screentime of his own film...I think it would be in bad faith to suggest he wasn't engaged with it himself. I'm don't think it's a stretch to say he was excited about the whole casino planet idea and how it tied into the themes he was exploring for Finn's arc, and Finn getting to finally face down Phasma, etc.

I'm not sure if you're trying to say that RJ thought "eh, I don't like Finn, let me give me some boring story that nobody will like", but that's kind of what it sounds like. You obviously have the right to your opinion, but I don't think it's a fair argument at all if that's the implication here.

 

[TheVileOne]

I don't think the Canto Bight subplot works very well.

Additionally, the whole Phasma subplot was also kind of defanged. Case in point, they cut off that extension where Phasma kills the other stormtroopers when Finn tries to expose her. Not to mention, they kept banging this drum that Phasma was going to have a bigger role this time and it was only marginally so. There's never any reference to her whole backstory about being a survivor and willing to do anything to survive.

Now, had they actually expanded on the Phasma thing as it relates to Finn, i think that could've been more rewarding.

Other than her cool look and setup, Phasma was really a throwaway character in the first film. Her main function was being subjected to a comedic gag with Chewie.

Going off that deleted snippet in Last Jedi, here what I think should've happened. Maybe Finn and co. are captured, and Finn is somehow able to inspire other dissent in the ranks of Stormtroopers. Maybe the Stormtroopers are tired of being numbers and are also conflicted with what they are doing.

I thought Finn being a Stormtrooper was one of the most interesting aspects of Force Awakens. It felt like something fresh and new. What if these troopers actually had a face and personalities and desires of their own.

I think that's something Johnson could've capitalized on more. Instead we just have that comedic scene with Tom Hardy and Finn where it's all this suspense like "are they going to be discovered?" And it's just used as a comic relief type of scene that tonally IMO doesn't fit well with Star Wars, especially Hardy's character using that goofy southern accent.

Granted all this is hindsight after watching Rise of Skywalker.

 

[Iceman]

I would struggle to get through that Canto Bight scene again.

 

[Donner]

I would struggle to get through that Canto Bight scene again.

Me too. I'm not sure what Rian was going for with that. It feels almost "Solo-esque" by having Finn go off on a crazy adventure with his sidekick Rose, but it didn't come off the way I'm sure RJ wanted. Not funny or particularly enjoyable for the story.

But like @TheVileOne said, a Stormtrooper rebellion would have been much more interesting.

 

[Gothamsknight]

TLJ is close to being incredible. Remove the Canto Bight scene, and the DJ character, and focus more on Finn and Phasma. I also think killing Luke was probably not the best thing to do in that film, so I would've had him live and die in the next one. with some rewrites, the film could've have truly been something special. Johnson is an amazing director and it's clear he loves Star Wars. he made some bold choices and regardless whether you like the film or not, I think it's worth respecting.

 

[Iceman]

Me too. I'm not sure what Rian was going for with that. It feels almost "Solo-esque" by having Finn go off on a crazy adventure with his sidekick Rose, but it didn't come off the way I'm sure RJ wanted. Not funny or particularly enjoyable for the story.

But like @TheVileOne said, a Stormtrooper rebellion would have been much more interesting.

Yeah, a Stormtrooper rebellion subplot would have made good use of Finn rather than wasting him. I would have loved to see that.

 

[TheVileOne]

TLJ is close to being incredible. Remove the Canto Bight scene, and the DJ character, and focus more on Finn and Phasma. I also think killing Luke was probably not the best thing to do in that film, so I would've had him leave and die in the next one. with some rewrites, the film could've have truly been something special. Johnson is an amazing director and it's clear he loves Star Wars. he made some bold choices and regardless whether you like the film or not, I think it's worth respecting.

Yeah the DJ character was just relatively pointless IMO. Was not well executed.

And I mean...the Canto Bight sequence all it really did was hurt the Resistance Further. So it's hard for me to be like "Oh hey good job you guys, getting all but a fraction of the Resistance wiped out." I know that wasn't their intention, but that mission was so harmful.

I recall Pablo Hidalgo excusing the Holdo/Poe thing by saying the Resistance was an actual military and all that. Well if they're an actual military, then Poe, Rose, and Finn would all be arrested and court martialed for their actions.

 

[godisawesome]

Just because you found Finn's story boring (and to be fair, so did I at first although it grew on me a bit over time) doesn't mean Rian Johnson did. He wrote it and it still accounts for a lot of screentime of his own film...I think it would be in bad faith to suggest he wasn't engaged with it himself. I'm don't think it's a stretch to say he was excited about the whole casino planet idea and how it tied into the themes he was exploring for Finn's arc, and Finn getting to finally face down Phasma, etc.

I don’t think he made any intentional decision about Finn - positive or negative. I *do* think he viewed him in a more “obligatory” light, and experienced apathy and ignorance towards the character on a subconscious level.

- Johnson specifically removed Finn’s more engaging entrance to the film as Paige’s co-gunner because it would have required doing more character work because he “didn’t want to write it” when it would require more character work with Rose and Finn.
- He cut out what little character-specific interactions Finn was supposed to have with Phasma and filled it with groan worthy cartoon dialogue.
- He repacked Finn with Kylo as Rey’s companion and made sure that Rey and Finn didn’t share any dialogue, and I’m sorry, but screw that, that ain’t respecting the characters.

I don’t believe he made a single intentionally damaging decision in his writing - he was professional. But professional does not exclude privileged, and that’s the POV he suffered when making TLJ, and it’s a material writing weakness, not juts a social one.

 

[jmc]

The Storm trooper rebellion idea is good but, as were some of Trevorrow's other ideas, but.... it still doesn't fix the fundamental issues across the whole trilogy. There was still no thought put out to why the First Order exists in the first place or how the galaxy seemingly fell apart so quickly again.

 

[TheVileOne]

I will admit I really took for granted how damaging it was for the First Order to just blow up the whole New Republic in the first movie. I think the first movie really just tossed it aside quickly. And it wasn't given much attention either in Last Jedi.

 

[jmc]

I think the threat needed to be something 100% different from the OT. Some type of new evil force.

 

[godisawesome]

I think the threat needed to be something 100% different from the OT. Some type of new evil force.

The only real way I think the FO, and even Kylo Ren to some extent, could work as the threat in a mythological way would be to reformat them as a kind of “ghosts of the past haunting and damning the future” kind of concept - make them the extensions of the legacy we've seen before, but deliberately using irony, “poser-syndrome,” and a later “evolution” to make them remain familiar, but new in substance.

For instance... imagine if the First Order were slowly but surely defined as the kind of sleek, lean, and utterly ruthless smaller terrorist sect that the Empire liked to portray the Rebellion as to justify their police state.

Imagine if, as part of their war effort against a larger, numerically and logistically superior New Republic remnant, they wound up recruiting and exploiting old Separatist worlds to supplement their more-competent-than-old-Stormies troops with droid armies... making them ironically traitors to the original cassus belli that Palpatine claimed.

And imagine if they used the Stormtroopers ruthlessly enough that some became the red-armored Sith Troopers, loyal to Kylo because they choose to embrace the murder and devastation he ordered, while the regular, less loyal stormies rebel with Finn, and maybe even complete the transformation back to Clonetrooper-esque heroes by explicitly striking against their slavery and using paint jobs to mark their rebellion.

I think if you had that FO, instead of the predictably bloated retired of the Empire, had it opposed by a chaotic, desperate, but large New Republic struggling to preserve the victory of the past, and matched it with a Kylo who’s more clearly a representative of Vader’s legacy but not the heroic side of the family opposed by a struggling-to-stay heroic Rey Skywalker...

...It wouldn’t be original, but it could be the “Rhyme” the ST needed.

 

[fan4stic]

I just want to address this real quick.

Just because you found Finn's story boring (and to be fair, so did I at first although it grew on me a bit over time) doesn't mean Rian Johnson did. He wrote it and it still accounts for a lot of screentime of his own film...I think it would be in bad faith to suggest he wasn't engaged with it himself. I'm don't think it's a stretch to say he was excited about the whole casino planet idea and how it tied into the themes he was exploring for Finn's arc, and Finn getting to finally face down Phasma, etc.

I'm not sure if you're trying to say that RJ thought "eh, I don't like Finn, let me give me some boring story that nobody will like", but that's kind of what it sounds like. You obviously have the right to your opinion, but I don't think it's a fair argument at all if that's the implication here.

I think, while whether it's found boring or not to RJ, RJ didn't use the potential of the character. While I think writer freedom, in cases, is a way to go about things, I think a part of writing, is also using the potential of what they're given.

 

[Bobber]

Finn was given the shaft in 8 and 9, but even more so in 9 than in 8.

I honestly think he was a difficult character to write in Episode 8, because he had such a complete arc in 7, AND... JJ kinda forced Rian into a corner with the ending of 7. I mean, there was no way that Rian could pick up 8 anywhere but mere minutes after 7 ended, which isn't a very Star Wars like way to open a film, and also doesn't offer many options in regards to where you pick up your characters.

 

[Herolee10]

I also think killing Luke was probably not the best thing to do in that film, so I would've had him live and die in the next one. with some rewrites, the film could've have truly been something special.

Honestly, I will never understand on why the decision was made to kill Luke Skywalker off at the end of TLJ. Fans had waited for several years to see their favorite hero return on the big screen. We were only given a small tease of him in TFA, which made everyone more eager to see him finally participate in the sequel trilogy.

Putting aside his characterization in the film, I feel like fans would have been more forgiving of those creative choices if Luke had been allowed to move forward and right some of his wrongs/mistakes before becoming one with the force.

With the untimely passing of Carrie Fisher, the decision should have been made to rewrite Luke's ending so that he could live and become a true mentor to Rey in the next film.

 

[henzINNIT]

I don't get how Rian Johnson was particularly responsible for Finn getting the shaft.

- He didn't promote Finn as a lead in 7, lightsaber in hand, only to make the defecting stormtrooper character a bumbling bafoon.
- He didn't seperate the leads by putting Finn in a coma and Rey on a remote island in time for the second film.
- He didn't bench Luke Skywalker for the entirety of 7 requiring a lot of 8 to deal with.

- He did give Finn the only discernible arc he received in the trilogy.
- He did give Finn the confrontation with Phasma he probably should have had in 7.
- He did actually progress Finn into a determined Rebel, beyond protecting Rey, setting up for a pay-off in 9.

I was more disappointed with Finn than I would have admitted when 7 came out. I really liked the film, and Boyega brought enough charisma to make Finn charming, but it was not at all what I envisioned. 8 did Finn no favours, with most of the divisive material.

9 on the other hand, is absolutely awful to Finn. He's a joke now, just running around screaming Rey. It's not just that JJ didn't give Finn anything to do, it's that previous scripts did, and pretty well, and JJ dropped it in favour of nothing.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Honestly, I will never understand on why the decision was made to kill Luke Skywalker off at the end of TLJ. Fans had waited for several years to see their favorite hero return on the big screen. We were only given a small tease of him in TFA, which made everyone more eager to see him finally participate in the sequel trilogy.

Putting aside his characterization in the film, I feel like fans would have been more forgiving of those creative choices if Luke had been allowed to move forward and right some of his wrongs/mistakes before becoming one with the force.

With the untimely passing of Carrie Fisher, the decision should have been made to rewrite Luke's ending so that he could live and become a true mentor to Rey in the next film.

I loved jaded Luke and some of my favorite scenes in TLJ is Luke talking about the failure and hypocrisy of the Jedi. If they had let him live, I truly think TLJ would have been incredible and the potential in IX even more exciting.

 

[Donner]

I liked the idea of Finn (Stormtrooper gone rogue), but I hated Boyega's portrayal. I don't know what it was but his character annoyed the ever loving **** out of me in TFA.

 

[Schlosser85]

I liked the idea of Finn (Stormtrooper gone rogue), but I hated Boyega's portrayal. I don't know what it was but his character annoyed the ever loving **** out of me in TFA.

He was borderline comic relief bumbling sidekick who cracked one-liners all the time and generally didn't act like someone who'd been stolen from his family and spent his whole life as a brainwashed soldier.

 

[henzINNIT]

I liked the idea of Finn (Stormtrooper gone rogue), but I hated Boyega's portrayal. I don't know what it was but his character annoyed the ever loving **** out of me in TFA.

I wouldn't put it on Boyega. He was mostly known for Attack The Block prior to this, where he plays it very straight and was more than capable of pulling off a more serious Finn. For whatever reason, they went with wacky. Maybe just to soften the edges of his very dark backstory, which is kinda screwed up.

 

[godisawesome]

The entire “Abrams forced Johnson” to not progress any serious time in TLJ” argument is a load of bull.

The only reason that happened is because Johnson wanted a short time-scale, because otherwise his version of Like would have his pretentious selfishness and cowardice exposed once Johnson decided not to have him train Rey and, y’know, be a supporting character in her story because it was her damn trilogy.

Literally any storyline that involved actual training for Rey could have had a time skip for everyone.

Just because Johnson wanted to bunt instead of homer on an inside fastball from Abrams giving him great cliffhanger doesn’t mean Abrams forced him into a bunt.

I don't get how Rian Johnson was particularly responsible for Finn getting the shaft.

- He didn't promote Finn as a lead in 7, lightsaber in hand, only to make the defecting stormtrooper character a bumbling bafoon.
- He didn't seperate the leads by putting Finn in a coma and Rey on a remote island in time for the second film.
- He didn't bench Luke Skywalker for the entirety of 7 requiring a lot of 8 to deal with.

- He did give Finn the only discernible arc he received in the trilogy.
- He did give Finn the confrontation with Phasma he probably should have had in 7.
- He did actually progress Finn into a determined Rebel, beyond protecting Rey, setting up for a pay-off in 9.

I was more disappointed with Finn than I would have admitted when 7 came out. I really liked the film, and Boyega brought enough charisma to make Finn charming, but it was not at all what I envisioned. 8 did Finn no favours, with most of the divisive material.

9 on the other hand, is absolutely awful to Finn. He's a joke now, just running around screaming Rey. It's not just that JJ didn't give Finn anything to do, it's that previous scripts did, and pretty well, and JJ dropped it in favour of nothing.

I can get being disappointed with Finn in 7... but I also think that arguing that TLJ was good in comparison, either for Finn as an individual, or by claiming that the rest of TLJ’s character arcs meet some standard that Finn’s TFA story didn’t, is laughable.

Literally all your points in that bullet list feel like they come from a mirror universe.

- Finn was the male lead in TFA - that’s why Boyega got those awards and why he felt respected there... and Finn as male lead, even with its problematic elements, still contained highly dramatic elements that were more successful than Kylo in the role in TLJ and TROS.
- TFA separated Finn and Rey after a film fo having them as a duo... but let’s not pretend that meant Johnson couldn’t have them reunite earlier, and TLJ is the damn story that invented Force Skype so Johnson could have Rey worship Kylo at the expense of her spine.
- Nothing about giving Luke his due requires replacing Finn with Kylo in importance... so that bull is also on RJ.

- Finn had a damn arc in TFA far more discernible, deep, and dynamic than his arc in TLJ; in fact, TLJ had to regress and ignore Finn’s progression in order to tell it’s condescending Saturday Morning Cartoon story.
- Wasting Christie’s appearance as Phasma in a half-baked and lazily scripted fight scene had less impact than Finn fighting Kylo, even though he lost that fight, since Kylo’s a higher ranking villain in the story, and Finn completed his well-written character arc in charging Kylo - and his delay and wounding of Kylo is one of the reasons Rey beat Kylo, so he gets to join in the credit for her win.
- Here’s why I said TLJ regressed Finn: he already progressed into a determined opponent of the Resistance on behalf of the Galaxy when he saw the Hosnian System get destroyed and came back to Han before Rey was captured, then prioritized taking down SKB’s shields and defenses over rescuing Rey twice. Plus... the very reason he left the FO was because he already empathized with their victims and knew the horrors of the FO, so TLJ’s condescending and asinine insistence his focus on Rey is some more bull.

Understand... I can understand and acknowledge the parts of TFA that can lead to this kind of reaction:

He was borderline comic relief bumbling sidekick who cracked one-liners all the time and generally didn't act like someone who'd been stolen from his family and spent his whole life as a brainwashed soldier.

...But I also feel TFA offers more blatant and explicit substance for Finn being an inspiring dramatic character than, say, anything in TLJ involving Luke or Rey... so if someone has criticism of TFA’s writing for him but doesn’t find TLJ worse... well, I figure they’re wrong.

And it seems Boyega feels that way as well.

...And I’d have to say that when Ridley’s expressing some trepidation and disappointment over the end product that she noticed starting with TLJ, Hamill voiced something doubts and trepidation about TLJ, Boyega’s expressing discontent and even at times disgust with TLJ, and when TLJ’s when Disney first started to notice the merch wasn’t selling like it was supposed to, and TLJ made $700 million less than TFA in spite of all those professional critics prostrating themselves before it and its Man Pain stories...

Well, at a certain point, I think a more honest debate would be over whether or not TLJ was a fatally disappointing film or merely a highly divisive one that it shouldn’t be surprising didn’t match its predecessor.

 

[henzINNIT]

The entire “Abrams forced Johnson” to not progress any serious time in TLJ” argument is a load of bull.

The only reason that happened is because Johnson wanted a short time-scale, because otherwise his version of Like would have his pretentious selfishness and cowardice exposed once Johnson decided not to have him train Rey and, y’know, be a supporting character in her story because it was her damn trilogy.

Literally any storyline that involved actual training for Rey could have had a time skip for everyone.

Just because Johnson wanted to bunt instead of homer on an inside fastball from Abrams giving him great cliffhanger doesn’t mean Abrams forced him into a bunt.

I never said 'forced', was merely pointing out a few of the factors that influenced Johnson's script.

I'd argue the reason Johnson picked up immediately was because JJ ended the film on a cliffhanger, but if you want to believe it was cog in a writer's nefarious plot then go ahead.

I'd also argue that Luke's circumstances grew out of reasoning why a great and noble hero would have already abandoned his friends and family at a time of war.

A time skip with Rey training in the mean-time is problematic. The notion that Rey arrived on that island, handed Luke the saber, he took it and said 'okay lets train' is probably the most dramatically boring thing you could possibly do. Again it calls into question why Luke has been absent.

I can get being disappointed with Finn in 7... but I also think that arguing that TLJ was good in comparison, either for Finn as an individual, or by claiming that the rest of TLJ’s character arcs meet some standard that Finn’s TFA story didn’t, is laughable.

Literally all your points in that bullet list feel like they come from a mirror universe.

- Finn was the male lead in TFA - that’s why Boyega got those awards and why he felt respected there... and Finn as male lead, even with its problematic elements, still contained highly dramatic elements that were more successful than Kylo in the role in TLJ and TROS.
- TFA separated Finn and Rey after a film fo having them as a duo... but let’s not pretend that meant Johnson couldn’t have them reunite earlier, and TLJ is the damn story that invented Force Skype so Johnson could have Rey worship Kylo at the expense of her spine.
- Nothing about giving Luke his due requires replacing Finn with Kylo in importance... so that bull is also on RJ.

Again I must state: I am not arguing TLJ did things better, I am refuting the claim that this film was particularly bad to a character that was consistently under-served.

- Finn was the male lead, playing a goofy second fiddle to Rey, lying about himself out of shame, trying to run away, and being saved by other characters until no-one is left to save him and he is put in a coma. Those problematic elements make up his entire character, and completely inform how he was treated in 8.
- They could have reunited earlier, sure. The Kylo hate is really seeping in here. You talk about him a lot as the replacement male lead, but you seem preoccupied by this. Surely the main hero and villain will interact and build a complicated relationship over the trilogy.
- Giving Luke Skywalker his due absolutely affects the screen time of every other character. He's such a hefty undertaking that the previous director just hid him on an island. Again you bring up Kylo. Where's his due? The force skype you seem to dislike is one of the most popular elements in this whole trilogy, I certainly don't begrudge its existence. More to the point, I don't think it was a bullet to the head of Finn's character either.

- Finn had a damn arc in TFA far more discernible, deep, and dynamic than his arc in TLJ; in fact, TLJ had to regress and ignore Finn’s progression in order to tell it’s condescending Saturday Morning Cartoon story.
- Wasting Christie’s appearance as Phasma in a half-baked and lazily scripted fight scene had less impact than Finn fighting Kylo, even though he lost that fight, since Kylo’s a higher ranking villain in the story, and Finn completed his well-written character arc in charging Kylo - and his delay and wounding of Kylo is one of the reasons Rey beat Kylo, so he gets to join in the credit for her win.
- Here’s why I said TLJ regressed Finn: he already progressed into a determined opponent of the Resistance on behalf of the Galaxy when he saw the Hosnian System get destroyed and came back to Han before Rey was captured, then prioritized taking down SKB’s shields and defenses over rescuing Rey twice. Plus... the very reason he left the FO was because he already empathized with their victims and knew the horrors of the FO, so TLJ’s condescending and asinine insistence his focus on Rey is some more bull.

That isn't Finn's arc in TFA at all. He didn't become a 'determined opponent' after witnessing the New Republic destroyed. Did you not finish that very scene? Because it builds to determined Finn sprinting across the battlefield after.... Rey.

Finn isn't a Resistance loyalist after that moment either. He jeopardizes the entire Starkiller attack lying to them about his knowledge just so he could get to the base to save Rey, He's not fighting Kylo at the end as culmination of this great change, he's trying to save himself and you guess who.

You can slate the Phasma fight all you like but it is that moment of growth. When she calls him scum and he retorts 'Rebel scum' with pride, he's actually signalling some transformation.

I understand the feeling of regression. I think most people felt that way at the time, I think I did. It was a little underwhelming; ultimately my difference of opinion is that it was the same way I felt after 7 and 9 in regards to Finn.

Understand... I can understand and acknowledge the parts of TFA that can lead to this kind of reaction:

...But I also feel TFA offers more blatant and explicit substance for Finn being an inspiring dramatic character than, say, anything in TLJ involving Luke or Rey... so if someone has criticism of TFA’s writing for him but doesn’t find TLJ worse... well, I figure they’re wrong.

That's very diplomatic of you.

And it seems Boyega feels that way as well.

...And I’d have to say that when Ridley’s expressing some trepidation and disappointment over the end product that she noticed starting with TLJ, Hamill voiced something doubts and trepidation about TLJ,

Which would mean a lot if actors were ever reliable critics of media. Especially on things they were in, which are a wholly different experience for them than for us.

It is worth noting that Mark Hamill was *****ing about Episode 7 long before 8, it's just not clung to by people who need the validation. It's doubly worth noting that a big chunk of Hamill's criticism stems from the fact that the OT cast were not reunited, something that JJ rendered impossible, not Rian Johnson.

Disney first started to notice the merch wasn’t selling like it was supposed to, and TLJ made $700 million less than TFA in spite of all those professional critics prostrating themselves before it and its Man Pain stories...

As someone nerdy enough to follow the merch, I know it's a far more complicated affair. For instance I know that TFA merch clogged bargain bins forever, I know that Rogue One merch did worse, then TLJ did worse again. I also know that Hasbro's merch was mostly terrible throughout this time, their flagship line had been dying off gradually over years, and practically the entire industry has been collapsing because kids like phones more than toys.

Box Office also needs a lot of context. TLJ was the 3rd annual Star Wars film from Disney in a demonstrably terrible release schedule. Considering the drop-off between 7 and Rogue One, it's fair to say that 7 experienced hype and numbers that wouldn't necessarily be indicative of the franchise as a whole. On the other end, the 5 films released this way were of such varying quality and reaction, that it is hard to discern much of a pattern at all. TLJ was certainly divisive, and it certainly affected numbers. Exactly how much is more complicated.