The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[Gothamsknight]

I'll forever remain firm on my belief that even if someone dislikes The Last Jedi, the hate it gets is so absurdly blown out of proportion. The 43% audience score on RT is just nuts in the worst way. Divisive movie? Absolutely, but without going down that rabbit hole, I'm still certain that a lot more than story choices played a part in the over blown hatred of the movie.

For me, The Last Jedi is the strongest film thematically out of the ST. The Force Awakens is the most fun, but I've been leaning towards The Last Jedi more over the years. the more I think about TLJ and like it even more over time, and it also makes me frustrated by TROS even more at the same time. Rian Johnson was boxed into a corner and attempted to do something bold. The next film rejected all of that.

 

[Frodo]

TLJ is a divisive film to be sure, and alot of the problem is really the inability of SW fandom on either side to except that the other side strongly disagrees with them.

That's always been one of the main issues with the discourse on this film.
Neither side can seemingly except that people can look at the same thing , and walk away with very different feeling and beliefs about it.

It happens all the time with films, art, music, etc, since taste is subjective, but when you have both sides claiming to have " The right answer" and to be " the true star wars fans", you get the kind of discourse there is over TLJ.

Now me, I'm of two minds on the film.
There are some interesting ideas I like about it, and there are ideas that don't work for me about it.
There are things I think he should have chucked, and there are things I think he should have elaborated on.
There are things I think are cool, and things I'm iffy on.
I don't think it's the best of the ST, but I don't think it's the worst either.
So, I don't fall into the "love" or "hate" category.

I do love the rest of Rian Johnson's filmography of Brick, Looper, and Knives Out, and I'm really looking forward to Knives Out 2.

 

[BatLobster]

I'll forever remain firm on my belief that even if someone dislikes The Last Jedi, the hate it gets is so absurdly blown out of proportion. The 43% audience score on RT is just nuts in the worst way. Divisive movie? Absolutely, but without going down that rabbit hole, I'm still certain that a lot more than story choices played a part in the over blown hatred of the movie.

For me, The Last Jedi is the strongest film thematically out of the ST. The Force Awakens is the most fun, but I've been leaning towards The Last Jedi more over the years. the more I think about TLJ and like it even more over time, and it also makes me frustrated by TROS even more at the same time. Rian Johnson was boxed into a corner and attempted to do something bold. The next film rejected all of that.

I can buy that. TFA more fun, TLJ stronger thematically. That checks out to me.

The over the top reaction to TLJ was honestly laughable to me last night when I was watching it. Like, if you just strip away the discourse and your own "fan goggles" of what you wanted to see happen--and just look at it as a movie, it's so far from a bad movie. I think in some years time people are going to look back and be like...."huh....this is the movie that broke Star Wars fandom?" I mean people in The Fandom Menace will seriously argue that it's one of the worst films of all time. I'm sorry but that's just too much for me. There is too much obvious quality in the movie for me to take any of that seriously.

And yeah, I don't care if someone doesn't like TLJ, as long as they're not aggressive and confrontational about it. It's normal to disagree about a piece of art, and obviously SW means so much to people so it's inevitable. You can have a great conversation with this movie with someone with the opposite view if both approach it with a level-head. But my god the reactions to this movie were so intense that I think I kind of stopped caring for a while. Revisiting it a bit removed from all of that, and I'm happy to say that I still think it holds up.

As I was saying-- I have a major issue with how TFA undid the OT so quickly and put Luke into exile, but one thing I love about TLJ is how it cements Luke as a legend who can still inspire the next generation even after his failure to start the Jedi Order. That works really well for me and feels like the necessary completion of his arc after where TFA left him.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I can buy that. TFA more fun, TLJ stronger thematically. That checks out to me.

The over the top reaction to TLJ was honestly laughable to me last night when I was watching it. Like, if you just strip away the discourse and your own "fan goggles" of what you wanted to see happen--and just look at it as a movie, it's so far from a bad movie. I think in some years time people are going to look back and be like...."huh....this is the movie that broke Star Wars fandom?" I mean people in The Fandom Menace will seriously argue that it's one of the worst films of all time. I'm sorry but that's just too much for me. There is too much obvious quality in the movie for me to take any of that seriously.

And yeah, I don't care if someone doesn't like TLJ, as long as they're not aggressive and confrontational about it. It's normal to disagree about a piece of art, and obviously SW means so much to people so it's inevitable. You can have a great conversation with this movie with someone with the opposite view if both approach it with a level-head. But my god the reactions to this movie were so intense that I think I kind of stopped caring for a while. Revisiting it a bit removed from all of that, and I'm happy to say that I still think it holds up.

As I was saying-- I have a major issue with how TFA undid the OT so quickly and put Luke into exile, but one thing I love about TLJ is how it cements Luke as a legend who can still inspire the next generation even after his failure to start the Jedi Order. That works really well for me and feels like the necessary completion of his arc after where TFA left him.

I agree with everything haha. I LOVED how Luke was handled in TLJ, and I gotta applaud Johnson for doing something bold and emotional with the story he was given. I actually rewatched The Rise of Skywalker today, and while I don't think it's a terrible film, there were parts I literally cringed at. There's a lot wrong with the movie, and it almost feels like it's just star wars action figures being mashed together. There's certainly good moments, and my favorite being between Ben and Han, which still chokes me up. But other than that, a lot of this movie just didn't work overall. Meanwhile, I find TLJ has aged really well.

 

[henzINNIT]

I've lurked other forums where the common accepted opinion is that TLJ isn't just a bad film by an objective standard, but also secretly toxic in every conceivable way and a cynical take-down of the whole franchise. I just don't get it. The film doesn't even deviate from the formula that much. The 'Let the past die' meme is definitively proven to be the wrong idea by the film itself.

I can't help but question some fan's attachment to their favourite characters. 'Not my Luke' is an ironically brilliant name for the sense of ownership at play, and how personally people can take it when characters don't live up to their legend.

 

[BatLobster]

I've lurked other forums where the common accepted opinion is that TLJ isn't just a bad film by an objective standard, but also secretly toxic in every conceivable way and a cynical take-down of the whole franchise. I just don't get it. The film doesn't even deviate from the formula that much. The 'Let the past die' meme is definitively proven to be the wrong idea by the film itself.

I can't help but question some fan's attachment to their favourite characters. 'Not my Luke' is an ironically brilliant name for the sense of ownership at play, and how personally people can take it when characters don't live up to their legend.

I agree. It shakes up the formula, but it reaffirms it all by the end. People are way too blinded by emotion to look at the movie fairly. The thing about TLJ for me is it really just brought to light how bad this toxic fandom problem is, and it's across all franchises.

I mean I'm seeing it now with the Dexter finale. It is what it is, I'm not saying that was great (or that it was terrible), but now I'm just seeing the comments of people savagely trashing the writers on Twitter. Like it just became commonplace for people to take it so personally and act aggressively towards the creators and form hate circle-j**ks on Reddit, etc. I hate to cast judgment, but it just seems deeply unhealthy to me.

Like it just comes down to the fact that if that much of your emotional wellbeing is tied to how your favorite fictional characters and franchises are handled, maybe you should address that instead of wasting all your time indulging in this toxic negativity.

These fan reactions...regardless of whether the movie/show warrants it or not, it ends up overshadowing the actual thing to me and it becomes the bigger story.

 

[Sian]

I'm on the autistic spectrum, and tend to take things to heart...and TROS broke my heart not just because they killed off my favourite character, but also because they killed off the Skywalker/Solo family.
I have come to the conclusion that there are three kinds of SW fans...those that enjoy the Skywalker saga AND the spin offs...those who prefer the spin offs and the EU...and those who watch it simply for the Skywalkers. Unfortunately for me...I'm in the latter category. As a result I now have zero appetite for anything SW, because they have crushed my forty plus affection for the Skywalker saga by rendering everything the Skywalkers did, and their sacrifices,completely pointless. Having Palpatine's seed take their name is the final straw.

I went away, had a good cry (yes, I'm that 'sad' a person) then I decided that the way to get my revenge on DLF was....to simply withdraw my money. No stupid whining on twitter or immature death threats...instead, I have chosen to avoid anything made by Disney - including Marvel movies and Disney+ - and so far, it has been very satisfying. And harms no one.

I will say this...on another forum, which I won't name in case it's prohibited, I've noticed quite a few Finn fans showing an almost fanatical hatred for Kylo/Ben fans. Fine - you are allowed to like/hate what you want...but it's out of order to accuse someone of racism simply because they prefer Kylo to Ben. I was banned after twice referring to Kylo in a Finn thread - first time I did it I was accused of being a racist - and it leaves me genuinely bewildered that they have taken it so far.
I did however, get a good laugh out of what they said when I attempted to log in.
'You are a terrible person and George Lucas hates you'...then underneath:
'Welcome to the Forums.'

Funniest thing I've seen for a long time.

 

[BatLobster]

Okay, finished my ST watchtrough with TROS last night. I think my feelings about this movie haven't changed much. I'll say that I still think the opening of this movie is borderline atrocious and by far the weakest point for me. It occurred to me last night that if you were watching the series for the first time and were spacing out during the opening crawl, you'd be entirely lost when Palpatine shows up out of nowhere. It breaks my heart because I was really excited about his return. And then the opening is also heavy on the Leia scenes, which...are what they are.

I will say I still enjoy the Pasaana bit of the film. I think that's some solid Star Wars adventure fun, and Abrams knows how to deliver that. The Life Day celebration looks incredibly huge and vibrant in 4k. I appreciate the effort that went into bringing that to life. The overall idea of Rey/Finn/Poe going on an artifact hunt to find the way to a lost Sith world is a fun concept, kinda Indiana Jones meets Star Wars. I'm still on board with that.

My overall feeling on the film is still that it's just too rushed. I don't understand why we couldn't get something like an establishing shot of Rey landing on Ahch-To. It's not like the film was already pushing 3 hours or something. It's short as it is. Why not give some time to breathe, so we can process what the protagonist is going through in her darkest moment? My first assumption when Rey steals Kylo's Tie-fighter isn't that she's going into self-exile like Luke. Just cutting to her already there with the burning ship is jarring.

I don't mind the climax overall, I still dig the horror vibe of Exegol and how Palps is presented in the film. The kiss....should've never happened. It being there feels kind of like a smoking gun that the movie was attempting to please everyone. I think I would've been fine if we just see them looking at each other smiling, with a hint of what could've been, then Kylo passes away. That would've been more true to their arc IMO. The kiss makes it feel like it was some tragic romance all along, and...no. That was not earned.

I will say this movie probably has my favorite score of the ST. So it has that going for it. There were moments watching it where I had chills, despite myself thinking critically of the film, just due to the sheer power of Williams. He is the thing keeping this movie afloat more than anything IMO.

Maybe an unpopular statement, but I would love to know what the full scope of Terrio's ideas may have been. He mentioned that his preference would've been to split the movie into two parts because it was attempting to do so much, and the movie 100% feels like a Cliff Notes version of a bigger story. I'd be curious to know what some of the beats would've felt like if they were more fleshed out.

Overall, the movie is still a mixed bag to me. Not as terrible as some will make it out to be, but falls tragically short of how epic a conclusion to a 9 film saga should've been. It unfortunately makes it a very uneven trilogy that doesn't have a clear reason for existing beyond relaunching the franchise to make money. But this still all comes back to the way TFA was handled IMO. There should've been a clear story reason for this trilogy existing beyond "we want Star Wars to be fun again and this time we're going to have a female lead and a more diverse cast". Those things are great and all but what's lacking is a true artistic drive. The prequels had that. Johnson tried to infuse that, but it's unfortunately only limited to the second film in the trilogy. At the end of the day, I can still enjoy the ST, but I have to really turn off my analytical brain for TFA and TROS unfortunately and just enjoy the gorgeous visuals, fun moments of character banter, the score, lightsaber battles etc. There's a lot to like there if you can put some of the weak storytelling aside. Ultimately I think I wish someone other than Abrams had been brought on. It feels like between Star Wars and Star Trek, his MO is to dumb franchises down in the name of making them more palatable for a wider audience. Disney got exactly what they wanted out of TFA-- it was one of the biggest films ever, but there was a price to pay for the way they went about handling the ST.

 

[Sian]

It was a film that had been constantly re shot over and over again, and it showed. Although as a Kylo fan I was already terribly disappointed at the leaked ending I still hoped I'd enjoy the film, but ten minutes into it I just knew that I wasn't going to. Two years later, and I still can't believe what a badly made film it is - more like a cheap B movie copy than a blockbuster that cost a fortune to make.
Regarding the 'reylo kiss'....I would actually have preferred no kiss, and Ben's survival. All the 'kiss' did was make Rey look like a creepy succubus who'd sucked out the last Skywalker's life Force - her 'evil twin' even had vampire teeth!

 

[BatLobster]

There are just too many problems with Ben surviving. What do you do with that character? He goes into hiding and lives a hermit life? He was never going to be accepted back by the Resistance/Republic. He'd be tried for his war crimes. In fact honestly, if Ben was truly a redeemed character the best thing he could've done was turn himself in and stand trial. So he could publicly denounce his own wrongs and do what he can to quell any sympathy for fascism in the galaxy. Talk openly about how the lies of The First Order had corrupted his soul and made him do things that he'll never be able to take back. I think that's the most useful he could've been if he were alive.

There was no scenario where Rey and Ben were going to live happily ever after and pop out Skywalker babies. I think the percentage of the audience that would've accepted that was extremely narrow to the Reylo fans. Everyone else would've rejected it big time. The poor reaction to the kiss should tell you everything you need to do know about that.

Ben Skywalker was always a doomed character. Him dying is the very least of my problems with the film.

 

[henzINNIT]

Kylo had little chance of surviving the trilogy after his actions. I do think you could have left him secluded on Ahch-to though. As long as he has turned in a convincing manner, he had time to continue seeking redemption.

A lot of people seemed concerned about the blood-line ending with Kylo. I would have given him a child in episode 9. Side-steps the whole issue. However you play out Kylo's story, this child would end up in good hands by the end, keeping the whole family theme and being optimistic for the future.

 

[Mani-Man]

Maybe an unpopular statement, but I would love to know what the full scope of Terrio's ideas may have been. He mentioned that his preference would've been to split the movie into two parts because it was attempting to do so much, and the movie 100% feels like a Cliff Notes version of a bigger story. I'd be curious to know what some of the beats would've felt like if they were more fleshed out.

I get why they thought "trilogy", but this should have made the full 10...should have ended with Episode 10, not 9.

I do think you could have salvaged the whole thing somewhat if Episode 9 wouldnt have been the last one.
They had to rush so many things that a lot didnt work.

Giving more time to the how and why palpatine is back, would have solved that problem.
More beef for Kylos redemption etc...all could have been turned into something better with more time.

Now to be fair, they were dealt a bad card because Episode 9 was supposed to focus a lot on Leia and with Carrie Fisher passing away, they were in a unfortunate place.
But even more reasons to split it up.

But it was all about nostalgia, the original was a trilogy, the prequels...so we have to do sequel Trilogy.

With more time i do think you could have managed to make Kylo survive, hell as much as i despise it, you probably could have done a serviceable Reylo ending.

But this all would have needed time and most of all plan...both things they didnt give themself enough.

 

[Sian]

There are just too many problems with Ben surviving. What do you do with that character? He goes into hiding and lives a hermit life? He was never going to be accepted back by the Resistance/Republic. He'd be tried for his war crimes. In fact honestly, if Ben was truly a redeemed character the best thing he could've done was turn himself in and stand trial. So he could publicly denounce his own wrongs and do what he can to quell any sympathy for fascism in the galaxy. Talk openly about how the lies of The First Order had corrupted his soul and made him do things that he'll never be able to take back. I think that's the most useful he could've been if he were alive.

There was no scenario where Rey and Ben were going to live happily ever after and pop out Skywalker babies. I think the percentage of the audience that would've accepted that was extremely narrow to the Reylo fans. Everyone else would've rejected it big time. The poor reaction to the kiss should tell you everything you need to do know about that.

Ben Skywalker was always a doomed character. Him dying is the very least of my problems with the film.

But... this is, at the end of the day, fantasy.
If you are going to go in that direction, then:
Han would have had to spend time in jail once the Republic was reformed for his years as a smuggler and galactic criminal
Poe would face court martial for first disobeying orders - getting half his squad killed - and then for staging a mutiny. Fletcher Christian spent the rest of his life in exile after leading history's most famous case of the latter.
Rey would be called to account for using Force lightning on a transport ship
Relatives of non military workers on Starkiller would be demanding compensation from the Resistance.
Fantasy folks...and they didn't kill off Ben Solo/Kylo Ren for anything like that. JJ wanted to replace him with his female version of Luke (only without any of his relatable characteristics).
DLF wanted to kill off the Skywalkers and forge ahead with their new characters....which is ironic, because all their new material is based in the past.

 

[Brother Jack]

There are just too many problems with Ben surviving. What do you do with that character? He goes into hiding and lives a hermit life? He was never going to be accepted back by the Resistance/Republic. He'd be tried for his war crimes. In fact honestly, if Ben was truly a redeemed character the best thing he could've done was turn himself in and stand trial. So he could publicly denounce his own wrongs and do what he can to quell any sympathy for fascism in the galaxy. Talk openly about how the lies of The First Order had corrupted his soul and made him do things that he'll never be able to take back. I think that's the most useful he could've been if he were alive.

I would have been fine with that. His punishment is life; that he lives with nothing out in the outer regions, trapped alone within the consequence of his actions. In terms of redemption I think that works better than the heroic sacrifice, and would've been a much more interesting (and needed) subversion of Vader's arc.

 

[Sian]

I wanted him to live, and and become a kind of 'ronin', atoning for his actions through deeds.

I loved Kylo Ren, and unlike many saw him as more of a victim rather than a villain. But, looking back on the trilogy as a whole, the only conclusion I can come to is that it was simply DLF erasing Lucas's legacy family, thus leaving the SW universe - but not its central characters so Disney could create their own. This is why unlike the EU they gave the Skywalker/Solos just one blood heir and then 'villainised' him by having him kill Han, arguably the most popular of the OT characters, so the general audience would hate him and cheer for their nice, shiny, politically correct new heroes.
I've probably said this before (sorry) but I think that Star Wars has three types of fans...those who love it for the entire SWU, those who love it for the later post OT material, and those who love it for the Skywalkers/Solos. I'm one of those who firmly falls into the third group. Star Wars will continue post the fall of the Skywalkers...but not for me.

One thing I have to say here however.....I still find it hard to believe that anyone would end a long running saga by completely killing off the heroes' bloodline and letting the villain's descendant take over. I don't quite think I'll ever be able to accept that they did that. It would have been better if she'd been a nobody.

 

[BatLobster]

I would have been fine with that. His punishment is life; that he lives with nothing out in the outer regions, trapped alone within the consequence of his actions. In terms of redemption I think that works better than the heroic sacrifice, and would've been a much more interesting (and needed) subversion of Vader's arc.

I don't mind that, looking at it in isolation. The issue for me is, any ending that kept him alive, I would just take it as an indication that the Skywalker saga will continue some day. Somebody would pick up on that thread eventually.

And I really think the bloodline/story needed to end. Not that we can't get more mainline saga movies some day, but I think I-IX being the Skywalker saga as one "book", works. If they ever do Episode X, I think it should be about something else and more of a new beginning.

 

[Sian]

Okay, that's fine.
But WHY did they have to end the Skywalker saga on such a depressing note?
For those of us who love SW for the Solos and Skywalkers, the entire saga has been rendered meaningless. Anakin's sacrifice was for nothing. Palpatine succeeded in his goal of destroying the last of the Skywalkers. And HIS bloodline will continue.

I'm sorry but they didn't have to end the Skywalker saga like this. I'll never be able to see the other films in the same light again. In fact, I don't think I'll ever be able to watch any of them, from PT to ST, again.

 

[misjuevos]

Give it time if people can like the prequels now I am sure they will eventually like the sequels. It took Dave Feloni and the Clone Wars but now the prequels seem to be liked. I did like seeing Ewan and the other Jedi except Anakin of course he was horrible. All the cg and that dumb fight between Anakin and Obi-wan where they walked across the whole planet it seemed like. They just walked up and down the tower and floated across lava and just went in every room they could find. At one pont they actually just twirled their lightsabers at each other. How about you fight each other, I thought these were supposed to be good swordsman.
It has already begun with the sequels, if you know how to spot it. People hated Kylo when the movie came. They used to say "his character is just an emo child". Now it appears he was the only good part of the movie? This is just the start, give it time and after Jon and Dave finish with their retcons the sequels will be liked. I won't be swayed.

 

[Sithborg]

I wanted him to live, and and become a kind of 'ronin', atoning for his actions through deeds.

I loved Kylo Ren, and unlike many saw him as more of a victim rather than a villain. But, looking back on the trilogy as a whole, the only conclusion I can come to is that it was simply DLF erasing Lucas's legacy family, thus leaving the SW universe - but not its central characters so Disney could create their own. This is why unlike the EU they gave the Skywalker/Solos just one blood heir and then 'villainised' him by having him kill Han, arguably the most popular of the OT characters, so the general audience would hate him and cheer for their nice, shiny, politically correct new heroes.
I've probably said this before (sorry) but I think that Star Wars has three types of fans...those who love it for the entire SWU, those who love it for the later post OT material, and those who love it for the Skywalkers/Solos. I'm one of those who firmly falls into the third group. Star Wars will continue post the fall of the Skywalkers...but not for me.

One thing I have to say here however.....I still find it hard to believe that anyone would end a long running saga by completely killing off the heroes' bloodline and letting the villain's descendant take over. I don't quite think I'll ever be able to accept that they did that. It would have been better if she'd been a nobody.

You mean the EU that killed 2/3s of the Solo kids. The EU, that realizing their plans to do ANOTHER Skywalker Sith had to end in death, had said character have a one night stand and, ooops, knock her up. The EU, that after a long series of books that perfectly set up the next generation to take the lead, goes, oops, **** they kids, and to sideline fan favorite EU characters for the OT characters? The EU that decided that 1/3 of their modern Jedi vs Sith retread should be authored by a Jedi hating fascist?

Let me tell you, toward the end of the EU, many, many of us were ready for the OT cast to die, if just to finally move on from them.

 

[henzINNIT]

Bloodlines mattered precisely once in Star Wars and for a very specific reason: so Luke could find out his antagonist was his dad. I don't get the obsession beyond that. Rey being genetically a Palpatine (still a dumb decision) has no bearing on her as a person. 'Palpatine' doesn't win because Rey outlived the 'Skywalker' family. Not only does she live in complete defiance of the former, she adopted the name of the latter to do it. Rey is no more representitive of an evil lineage than Luke was.

 

[Sian]

You know what's weird....I don't really care anymore.

 

[BatLobster]

You know what's weird....I don't really care anymore.

Time heals all wounds.

 

[Sian]

I'm getting too old for that....

You know...a lot of Kylo haters argue that he was doomed because of who his grandfather was. So where does that leave Rey?

 

[antsman41]

Rey will become the SENATE.

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

Came across this video that was recently uploaded onto YouTube and it has got to be one of the most thoughtful & eloquent analysis I have seen about the sequel trilogy