Gotham Gotham Season 2, Episode 2 "Knock, Knock" General Discussion

[Taarna]

That was a really good episode. This Jerome is knocking it out of the park.

He's scary good as the Joker.

 

[Kane52630]

Essen's death was a terrible move killing off an interesting character not to mention someone of significance from the comics. Yeah, I know this isn't the comics and anything can happen but it still rubbed me the wrong way. Just seems like a waste largely for shock value.

Same here.

 

[chamber-music]

But why would they do that though? Like with Maroni last season - how many comic characters are going to be around when Batman actually shows up?

It doesn't really matter because this show will end when Bruce turns up as Batman so we are not going to see him take on any of these villains.

It is best to just think of Gotham as some crazy alternate universe prequel like Smallville.

 

[Slade W]

It doesn't really matter because this show will end when Bruce turns up as Batman so we are not going to see him take on any of these villains.

It is best to just think of Gotham as some crazy alternate universe prequel like Smallville.

That is how I view it too.

 

[Slade W]

This episode's pace was consistent with the premier, and it's a strong pace that moved the Bruce plot farther along than three or four of last year's episodes while also featuring engaging progress on the main front.

Galavan's still an interesting enigma, and he's still probably the biggest question mark for me. The actor's doing a great job, but I'm still curious as to who this guy is and hwy he does what he does. So I guess the creators are succeeding in that part of their gambit.

Now, here's my thoughts on Jerome when it comes to how far he resembles the regular Joker. The biggest single difference at the moment is how willing he is to be Galavan's attack dog; Lex Luthor could pull something similar, but Galavan's plans seem to already have a post-Jerome phase...

Now, here's my thoughts: Galavan and Jerome inevitably fall out, albeit probably without any personal hatred other than maniacal glee on Jerome's side. Jerome than sets up the Red Hood gang, forming it into the organization we're used to. Jerome is the leader and acts just as theatrically, but for his own benefit. He also starts using decoys, who act similarly. Then, we see a Red hood leader die, but we don't know if it was Jerome or not, we just know the leader of the Hoods keeps acting the same.

Somewhat similar to Zero Year (not exactly of course but similar IMO as there was a rumour of the leader being replaced by someone who started acting like the leader did). I like it. I was thinking similarly.

 

[Guts]

Spoiler

This is the same franchise that gives us the "Batgod," who has been depicted as taking down the entire Justice League by himself on multiple occasions. Compared to that, 4 psychopaths, with backup, taking out a station full of ordinary cops aint that hard to buy. Heck I think that the comics have had The Joker do something like that by himself on at least one occasion.

That was Batman: The Man Who Laughs

 

[ThePhantasm]

As well as Death of the Family

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

i gotta say Jerome telling those cheerleader to give him an "O"... give him a... was some GREAT/ JOKER/ COMICBOOK esque stuff!!
That dude is Great as an erstwhile joker!!

 

[kane9321]

Jerome..is just fn incredible..love him whenever he's on screen
give me more NYGMA DAMNIT

 

[X Knight]

It doesn't really matter because this show will end when Bruce turns up as Batman so we are not going to see him take on any of these villains.

It is best to just think of Gotham as some crazy alternate universe prequel like Smallville.

That is how I view it too.

the difference between this and Smallville is that Smallville at least focused on Clark Kent. and even though he didn't put on the suit and become Superman until the final ep, the show was about Clark developing and learning how to use his powers to help others.

With Gotham, Bruce is a secondary character and his journey to become Batman is relegated to a subplot.

 

[vantheman77]

the difference between this and Smallville is that Smallville at least focused on Clark Kent. and even though he didn't put on the suit and become Superman until the final ep, the show was about Clark developing and learning how to use his powers to help others.

With Gotham, Bruce is a secondary character and his journey to become Batman is relegated to a subplot.

Great comparisons between Smallville and Gotham as they're both backstories to Superman and Batman.

 

[terry78]

It would be hilariously wild if he actually turns out to not be Joker but ends up being another character completely at the end of the series run or something.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

So Thomas Wayne was a vigilante and/or was conceptualizing a proto Batman idea with the body armor and lair tech stuff ?

 

[Sawyer]

He was the Gray Ghost.

 

[fire117]

Same here.

Agreed terrible move killing her off.

 

[Loki882]

Well the Joker does kill her off eventually in the comics eventually. And honestly, my response to this is kind of similar to my reaction when:

Spoiler

The Daredevil show killed off Ben Urich.

If the only real argument against it, and this seems to be the case here at least, is "well, well, the comics didn't do it that way," then I find said argument rather unconvincing. This isn't the comics, I don't want them to do it exactly the same way, that'd be boring and predictable. If it works in context, then fine do it. And I'm willing to at least see where they go with this before making any final judgments.

 

[Gallops]

So far, I think this season has been good. Granted it's only 2 episodes, but I do like Jerome. Whether he ends up as Joker or not can be up for debate.

The difference between Gotham and Smallville is that Smallville was meant to be an origin story for Clark Kent/Superman. Gotham was created more as a way to follow Jim Gordon, and eventually introduce the idea of Batman.

I think the difference will be that the series finale won't be Bruce finally suiting up. I think we will see a bit of Batman, or a spin-off to a full live-action Batman TV series, with the same characters. Not for nothing, if shows like Law and Order:SVU can run for as long as they have why can't this?

I do agree they need to slow down a little on the villain introductions. We've already lost Maroni, who knows where Falcone is, Black Mask is dead and Jerome/Joker is already psychotic and acting like the Joker would act.

I think one thing that could be an answer to the whole "them knowing Jerome is Joker" argument is if Jerome disappears for a while before returning as Joker, painted up and all. I don't mind the backstory, what little of it they gave, because I get the feeling that Jerome isn't crazy because of his mother or growing up in a circus, but that he's just crazy because it's how he is.

I'm interested to see where they go with the Wayne Enterprises bit from last season and how that helps lead Bruce to being Batman.

 

[Frodo]

Smallville wasn't just about Clark becoming Superman. It was about Lex's fall from grace, The Kents , An alien among us story, Lana Lang, etc which then expanded into a show which explored the larger Superman myths and DCU with Green Arrow, Hawkman , etc, and then became a show about how he became Superman.

People forget that the show was very much self contained when it started, and it sort of treated the material in a very grounded way. The whole Clark becoming Superman stuff was a result of the show lasting so long , but its original inception wasn't to necessarily show Clark's path to becoming Superman. That's why they had the "no tights , no flights" rule because they felt free to explore a different area of the Superman mythology without having the burden of dealing with all the stuff that comes with the Adult Superman story.

In that sense Gotham is like Smallville in that its dealing with a part or their version of a part of the story that's usually brushed over in the films and even BTAS. They're attempting to deal with Gotham before Batman.

 

[Broseph44]

Well the Joker does kill her off eventually in the comics eventually. And honestly, my response to this is kind of similar to my reaction when:

Spoiler

The Daredevil show killed off Ben Urich.

If the only real argument against it, and this seems to be the case here at least, is "well, well, the comics didn't do it that way," then I find said argument rather unconvincing. This isn't the comics, I don't want them to do it exactly the same way, that'd be boring and predictable. If it works in context, then fine do it. And I'm willing to at least see where they go with this before making any final judgments.

Exactly.

I also find it funny some complaining about if Jerome is Joker than that's ruined it because we know his name and background etc. We got the same thing in Batman 89 with the joker, heck they even made his origin be that he was the one that shot and killed Bruce's parents.

So we can have Jack Napier in 89 kill Batman's parents and be given a full name, people still adore that Joker. We give Jerome a name and a back story and uh oh! Heaven forbid Gotham gives him a name and a bit of background, blasphemy. This isn't the comics, it's an adaptation of them.

 

[X Knight]

Smallville wasn't just about Clark becoming Superman. It was about Lex's fall from grace, The Kents , An alien among us story, Lana Lang, etc which then expanded into a show which explored the larger Superman myths and DCU with Green Arrow, Hawkman , etc, and then became a show about how he became Superman.

People forget that the show was very much self contained when it started, and it sort of treated the material in a very grounded way. The whole Clark becoming Superman stuff was a result of the show lasting so long , but its original inception wasn't to necessarily show Clark's path to becoming Superman. That's why they had the "no tights , no flights" rule because they felt free to explore a different area of the Superman mythology without having the burden of dealing with all the stuff that comes with the Adult Superman story.

In that sense Gotham is like Smallville in that its dealing with a part or their version of a part of the story that's usually brushed over in the films and even BTAS. They're attempting to deal with Gotham before Batman.

yes, but in Smallville, Clark was still the primary focus even though the show dealt with the other things you mentioned. Clark was still the main star.

In Gotham, Bruce is a side character, while Gordon is the main star.

so, there is a difference in focus.

 

[X Knight]

So far, I think this season has been good. Granted it's only 2 episodes, but I do like Jerome. Whether he ends up as Joker or not can be up for debate.

The difference between Gotham and Smallville is that Smallville was meant to be an origin story for Clark Kent/Superman. Gotham was created more as a way to follow Jim Gordon, and eventually introduce the idea of Batman.

I think the difference will be that the series finale won't be Bruce finally suiting up. I think we will see a bit of Batman, or a spin-off to a full live-action Batman TV series, with the same characters. Not for nothing, if shows like Law and Order:SVU can run for as long as they have why can't this?

I do agree they need to slow down a little on the villain introductions. We've already lost Maroni, who knows where Falcone is, Black Mask is dead and Jerome/Joker is already psychotic and acting like the Joker would act.

I think one thing that could be an answer to the whole "them knowing Jerome is Joker" argument is if Jerome disappears for a while before returning as Joker, painted up and all. I don't mind the backstory, what little of it they gave, because I get the feeling that Jerome isn't crazy because of his mother or growing up in a circus, but that he's just crazy because it's how he is.

I'm interested to see where they go with the Wayne Enterprises bit from last season and how that helps lead Bruce to being Batman.

It would be nice if they did a spin off show that focused on Batman vs the villains.

Or else, rethink their vision of Gotham with Bruce only donning the cape and cowl in the finale.

I think they should devote the 1st half of Gotham on Gordon, like they are doing now. Then, say, at the end of Season 4, you have Bruce decide to leave Gotham to train himself further.

Then, Season 5 will start with a time skip, as an older Bruce ( early 20s ) returns to Gotham to find the city in even worse shape.

The 2nd half of Gotham should focus on an older Bruce and Selina as the main characters, essentially becoming an extended "Year One" story about Bruce's early career as Batman.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Generally speaking, I do prefer Joker with a backstory that remains a mystery. But Monaghan is so fantastic as Jerome, that I'm fine with it if they go that direction. Joker or not, I love this character and his performance.

 

[Silly Cat]

I also find it funny some complaining about if Jerome is Joker than that's ruined it because we know his name and background etc. We got the same thing in Batman 89 with the joker, heck they even made his origin be that he was the one that shot and killed Bruce's parents.

So we can have Jack Napier in 89 kill Batman's parents and be given a full name, people still adore that Joker. We give Jerome a name and a back story and uh oh! Heaven forbid Gotham gives him a name and a bit of background, blasphemy. This isn't the comics, it's an adaptation of them.

Exactly...and you also forgot Mark Hamill's Animated Joker, they gave him a back-story as a hitman in the much beloved Batman Film "Mask of the Phantasm".

Don't get me wrong I prefer him to be a mystery too, but it's not like the Joker has never been given a back-story before.

It would be nice if they did a spin off show that focused on Batman vs the villains.

What I'm really hoping for (if the show lasts long enough) is for them to give us at LEAST a few episodes to see both Bruce and the villains in their fully developed personas...I want to see Robin Lord Tayor's Penguin with the Umbrella, Cory Michael Smith's 'Riddler', and Camren Bicondova's 'Catwoman' etc.

And especially David Mazouz's Batman (if they don't do a time jump with an older actor) going after them all. I feel like if the show lasts that long they HAVE to give us the satisfaction of seeing the end of the journey, so to speak.

A journey without a pay off is sort of disappointing, especially after seeing these characters grow into what they will become...so I hope they don't just end it with Bruce putting on the cowl, but instead let us see him go against some of these guys in their 'final form', for a few episodes at least.

And end it with one final scene between him (as Batman) and Commissioner Gordon.

 

[aNarcHy2day]

I enjoyed this episode. And of course both Jerome and Barbara's performances.

I'm just thinking it would be the best now that the show goes on a tangent like Smallville did and tread it's own alternate universe-y path. I pointed out during the last episode that it would hard for me to see this particular Gordon be the one from the comics with his legitimately criminal ways and now that they have started knocking off important characters from the comics (I'll point out I'm not screaming 'BLASPHEMY', I just don't like it personally) redeeming the show in light of the comic book mythology is near about impossible.

 

[X Knight]

Exactly...and you also forgot Mark Hamill's Animated Joker, they gave him a back-story as a hitman in the much beloved Batman Film "Mask of the Phantasm".

Don't get me wrong I prefer him to be a mystery too, but it's not like the Joker has never been given a back-story before.

What I'm really hoping for (if the show lasts long enough) is for them to give us at LEAST a few episodes to see both Bruce and the villains in their fully developed personas...I want to see Robin Lord Tayor's Penguin with the Umbrella, Cory Michael Smith's 'Riddler', and Camren Bicondova's 'Catwoman' etc.

And especially David Mazouz's Batman (if they don't do a time jump with an older actor) going after them all. I feel like if the show lasts that long they HAVE to give us the satisfaction of seeing the end of the journey, so to speak.

A journey without a pay off is sort of disappointing, especially after seeing these characters grow into what they will become...so I hope they don't just end it with Bruce putting on the cowl, but instead let us see him go against some of these guys in their 'final form', for a few episodes at least.

And end it with one final scene between him (as Batman) and Commissioner Gordon.

oh, yes. The show does need that payoff of Batman actually interacting with these villains.

otherwise, what good is building them up.

and the final scene should be Batman and Gordon on a rooftop. As an older/weary Gordon laments the dire situation that Gotham is in and that he feels like he has failed his duty, Batman reassures him and says:

"However dark and scary the world might be right now, there will be light. There will be light."

Echoing what Gordon said to Bruce the night his parents died and thus bringing the whole show full circle.