"Growing Pains" Season 2: Episode 19 Discussion Thread

[Rincewind]

Maybe "rushed" is not the right word, although I really think that they could have waited more with the bonding between Eddie and the symbiote. Let's say that it was... insufficient. Up until the point when Eddie opened the vault and bonded with the symbiote, he had no serious reason to become a crazy half-alien supervillain. Okay, in his eyes Peter was a dick. So what? Spidey ruined his life by killing the alien? Not true - the alien survived the freezing and if Eddie only left it where it was, he would have kept his job and thus his college education. Sure, after he bonded with the symbiote, it's understandable that he went crazy, but I still think that he had no serious reason to bond with it on the first place. They kinda fixed it by making Eddie borderline psychotic man who secrectly is eaten by envy towards Peter's life and is so desperate to have someone who cares about him, that he becomes a willing puppet to the alien, but I still hold to my opinion that they could have given him more solid reasons besides that to turn himself into villain.

 

[Ratcrawler]

Much as I didn't like movie Venom, I thought Eddie's motives were pretty believable. Yeah, he was a *****e but apparently a better photographer than Peter who only ever got photos because he WAS sPider-Man. Not only that, he had the balls to ask and convince JJ for a desk job, something Pete just kind of gave up on, and would have gotten it too. So JJ puts them in competition. Also, Eddie was in love with a girl who didn't really feel the same way but never flat out rejected him. So basically he's a young go-getter with all the hope in the world for bright future.

Then what happens? sPider-Man dickishly destroys his camera while fleeing from a bank robbery in a black costume. It doesn't take a feverish imagination to jump to the conclusion he's turned to the dark side. So Brock does something a little underhanded though justifiable and photoshops an image to get a job he deserves. Enter Peter Parker who dickishly embarasses him and ruins his career in one fell swoop AND, adding insult to injury, takes out the girl he loves.

Really, people have killed for much less.


BTW, did anybody answer my previous question? Did I miss something or was there a reason everybody forgot that huge Thanksgiving Parade smackdown between red/blue sPider-Man and the hulking black monstrosity shooting webs in what looked like sPidey's old costume? Cuz otherwise, it's kind of a gaping plot hole that everyone except captain Stacey was convinced Venom was sPider-Man.

 

[varsas]

Given that Spidey did go around in a black costume in a while and there was no monstrous mouth on Venom during the impersonation I think that it's possible to make a mistake.

 

[Duskbyday]

I think most people would have thought itwas part of thanksgiving parade. Or most people didn't see the guy.

 

[Dragon]

Much as I didn't like movie Venom, I thought Eddie's motives were pretty believable. Yeah, he was a *****e but apparently a better photographer than Peter who only ever got photos because he WAS sPider-Man. Not only that, he had the balls to ask and convince JJ for a desk job, something Pete just kind of gave up on, and would have gotten it too. So JJ puts them in competition. Also, Eddie was in love with a girl who didn't really feel the same way but never flat out rejected him. So basically he's a young go-getter with all the hope in the world for bright future.

Then what happens? sPider-Man dickishly destroys his camera while fleeing from a bank robbery in a black costume. It doesn't take a feverish imagination to jump to the conclusion he's turned to the dark side. So Brock does something a little underhanded though justifiable and photoshops an image to get a job he deserves. Enter Peter Parker who dickishly embarasses him and ruins his career in one fell swoop AND, adding insult to injury, takes out the girl he loves.

Really, people have killed for much less.

CRAZY people have killed for much less.

And Brock was in no way justified for his actions. Let's remember that Spidey destroyed Eddie's camera because HE KNEW that Eddie was trying to get a shot of Spidey committing a crime. He wasn't being an honest journalist here. He was crooked from the start.

Peter didn't embarass Eddie only because he wanted to hurt him. Eddie was trying to destroy the reputation of someone who was unselfishly trying to help people, for his own purely selfish reasons. And this would then make it that much harder for Spidey to help people in the future.

As for taking Gwen out, Peter couldn't even know that Eddie was interested in her.

Granted, the script for Spidey 3 was pretty garbled and could have used a good restructuring. But no doubt Eddie was a jerk out of the gate and deserved what he got.

 

[spiderman_rj]

The consensus is venom is a sucky character that should never had existed. This was my thoughs ever since i read his first apearence.

 

[The Rose]

The consensus is venom is a sucky character that should never had existed. This was my thoughs ever since i read his first apearence.

Well, my consensus is that Venom is easily one of the three greatest Spiderman villains ever conceived, along with Green Goblin and Mysterio.

 

[Anwar]

Why? He's just a lame "evil twin" cliche with lousy motivations. And Spidey lasted over 20 years without resorting to an "Evil Twin" cliche. Plus Venom helped give rise to the idiotic idea that psychopathic killers could be made into superheroes.

 

[The Joker]

Venom is hands down the most overrated Spidey villain ever. I don't hate him. But he is not fit to rank along side Ock and Goblin in the big three. He's just not that good.

 

[Anwar]

If there were a true "Big Three" of Spidey villains, it'd be the Goblin (both Norman and Harry, but not the others), Doc Ock, and Jonah Jameson (he's one of the main reasons Spidey has such a lousy rep, Peter doesn't get the money he deserves from his photography, and he's ultimately responsible for the Smythes and the Scorpion).

 

[Duskbyday]

Why? He's just a lame "evil twin" cliche with lousy motivations. And Spidey lasted over 20 years without resorting to an "Evil Twin" cliche. Plus Venom helped give rise to the idiotic idea that psychopathic killers could be made into superheroes.

I sorta think Scorpion was the original role for that "evil villain twin" cliche but that didn't work out. Jameson ranks as the best contagonist for Spidey. He isn't actually his arch nemesis (thts GG), but has given him the most hard time and always gets in his way. He is a good man at heart, but god has he been a thorn in Pete's side. Something I like about this Venom was he TOLD people who Spidey was. It took a while in the guys couple of years of living, but he did it.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, none of this "innocent people might get hurt" or "you're mine and mine alone!" BS. This Venom just does the easiest thing to ruin Peter's life.

Of course, if this Jameson isn't a total bastard and he DOES believe Venom he might choose not to tell anyone since:

1) It would ruin the Bugle's reputation in that people would now know that Spidey had been taking pictures of himself and was on-staff.

2) It would endanger Peter's friends and May.

 

[The Rose]

Why? He's just a lame "evil twin" cliche with lousy motivations. And Spidey lasted over 20 years without resorting to an "Evil Twin" cliche. Plus Venom helped give rise to the idiotic idea that psychopathic killers could be made into superheroes.

He wasn't an "evil twin" in the comics. As you know, he was an ordinary man who came to hate Spiderman intensely and accepted wholeheartedly the incredible power of the symbiote, which Spidey himself had forsaken, unwilling to sacrifice his soul for that kind of power. Then he had access to the enhanced powers of symbiote Spiderman, and all of Spidey's memories, making him extremely deadly.

Now, this version of him is a little more in line with the "evil twin" thing, since Peter and Eddie were close in the past, and while I don't like that aspect of this Venom that much (it steals Harry Osborn's thunder, since Harry was meant to be the one close to Peter who became his mortal enemy), the basic principles are the same: Venom is someone who accepted that parasite symbiote into his mind and soul.

It's not just that he is arguably the most powerful of Spidey's key rogues gallery - it's also that he chose to be every the monster he became, unlike, say Green Goblin or Doc Ock, who were hardly scumbags before they were caught in their respective accidents. Also, Venom's sole motivation is to use his powers to make his life right - it just so happens that he views Spidey as an obstacle in his life; Doc Ock and Green Goblin aren't motivated by such human desires.

Venom's design is great and the whole concept of the symbiote and Brock using one another to get what they want is a cool one. You can almost sympathise with Brock - even in the mainstream comics, you can feel pity for Brock and the state he was in just prior to his acquiring the symbiote. The symbiote caught him at a bad time.

BTW, if Norman turns out to be the Goblin in this series and they never get around to exploring Harry as the Goblin, my above complaint about this version of Venom will be invalid, since we won't have the awkward situation of two close friends of Spidey hating his guts.

I suppose not everyone will get where I'm coming from, but I'm not as interested in most Spidey villains as I am in Green Goblin, Venom and Mysterio. There are certain things about them that I find more compelling than any of the other villains.

All Doc Ock's character really had going for it besides the generic evil mastermind stuff is the fact that he, like Spidey, was a lonely nerd who was caught in an accident, only he decided to use it for evil purposes, unlike Spidey. Now that's great, but the thing is that Ock wanting all the power he can have doesn't do it for me like Venom's personal vendetta with Spidey does.

Yeah, none of this "innocent people might get hurt" or "you're mine and mine alone!" BS.

You realise that Green Goblin is guilty of the "you're mine and mine alone!" stuff (which I have no problem with, I hasten to add)...

 

[Anwar]

He was always an evil twin in the comics: A dude with the same powers and similar appearance to Peter. That's an evil twin pretty much.

He wasn't an "ordinary man", he was an amoral journalist who thought he wasn't amoral. He was also a LOUSY journalist who wrote a poorly researched article and RIGHTLY lost his career because of it. Spidey was just doing his damn job stopping the Sin-Eater.

Brock just hates Spidey because he couldn't accept it was entirely his own fault.

Also, he seems to think the unstable moron who came to him and confessed to be Sin-Eater (the guy who REALLY ruined Brock's career) didn't deserve anything bad since he never went after him.

And for all his power, and his knowledge he's NEVER ONCE used it to torment Peter the way Norman and Harry did. Except in this series.

And Norman is more powerful than Venom. He could wipe the floor with Venom if he wanted to.

 

[The Joker]

He wasn't an "evil twin" in the comics. As you know, he was an ordinary man who came to hate Spiderman intensely and accepted wholeheartedly the incredible power of the symbiote

His reasons for hating Spider-Man in the comics were incredibally weak. All Spider-Man did was catch the serial killer, Sin Eater. He never even knew or met Brock.

So the whole basis of their feud is weak. It's not based on anything real. As much as I loathe Spider-Man 3, at least Raimi got one thing right and made them have an actual connection prior to becoming enemies.

It's not just that he is arguably the most powerful of Spidey's key rogues gallery - it's also that he chose to be every the monster he became, unlike, say Green Goblin or Doc Ock, who were hardly scumbags before they were caught in their respective accidents. Also, Venom's sole motivation is to use his powers to make his life right - it just so happens that he views Spidey as an obstacle in his life; Doc Ock and Green Goblin aren't motivated by such human desires.

Actually both Osborn and Octavius were not nice people at all prior to their accidents. They were both power hungry ass holes who stepped on anyone and anything to get what they wanted.

And how can you say Brock chose to become the monster he is? He was going to kill himself before he encountered the symbiote. He didn't choose that destiny. Same way as Osborn and Octavius didn't cause their accidents. But all three of them embraced what they became when endowed with their new powers.

Venom's design is great and the whole concept of the symbiote and Brock using one another to get what they want is a cool one. You can almost sympathise with Brock - even in the mainstream comics, you can feel pity for Brock and the state he was in just prior to his acquiring the symbiote. The symbiote caught him at a bad time.

I never felt sorry for a loser who brought all his loserness on himself, and chose to blame it on someone who did nothing except catch a serial killer.

I suppose not everyone will get where I'm coming from, but I'm not as interested in most Spidey villains as I am in Green Goblin, Venom and Mysterio. There are certain things about them that I find more compelling than any of the other villains.

Can't understand it with Venom. But Goblin and Mysterio I can. Mysterio is very underrated. I love him.

 

[The Rose]

He was always an evil twin in the comics: A dude with the same powers and similar appearance to Peter. That's an evil twin pretty much.

Fair enough; I think I took it too literally.

He wasn't an "ordinary man", he was an amoral journalist who thought he wasn't amoral. He was also a LOUSY journalist who wrote a poorly researched article and RIGHTLY lost his career because of it. Spidey was just doing his damn job stopping the Sin-Eater.

Brock just hates Spidey because he couldn't accept it was entirely his own fault.

Also, he seems to think the unstable moron who came to him and confessed to be Sin-Eater (the guy who REALLY ruined Brock's career) didn't deserve anything bad since he never went after him.

OK, you'be outlined some glaring flaws with Venom's character there that I tend to keep overlooking (since I haven't read the Sin-Eater story but have only read a summary or two). I take back what I said about Eddie being a sympathetic character prior to his transformation, but I still quite like the fact that Venom became who he was out of (mostly) choice rather than chance, even if that choice was misguided, selfish etc. He's the kind of character you love to hate, one could say. Also, he didn't become a villain in one fell swoop, unlike Green Goblin or Doc Ock, and that's something that I like to see in certain villains.

And for all his power, and his knowledge he's NEVER ONCE used it to torment Peter the way Norman and Harry did. Except in this series.

You have a point there, but I consider Venom knowing who Spidey is the icing on the cake.

And Norman is more powerful than Venom. He could wipe the floor with Venom if he wanted to.

We'll never really know unless they have a confrontation in the comics or in this series. Why do think that Green Goblin could beat Venom?

Actually both Osborn and Octavius were not nice people at all prior to their accidents. They were both power hungry ass holes who stepped on anyone and anything to get what they wanted.

And how can you say Brock chose to become the monster he is? He was going to kill himself before he encountered the symbiote. He didn't choose that destiny. Same way as Osborn and Octavius didn't cause their accidents. But all three of them embraced what they became when endowed with their new powers.

My ignorance is coming into play again - I didn't know that Octavius and Osborn were always like that to a degree. But Brock did choose to accept the symbiote - he could have rejected it but was too weak-willed to do so. Sorry if I phrased my point about him choosing his destiny badly because what I really meant was that when he came face to face with the opportunity that was the symbiote, he accepted it with open arms. Octavius and Osborn only accepted their power after they acquired it. Sure, he had given up and resigned himself to suicide, but I wasn't talking about that - rather, I was talking about the evil deeds before that and from the encounter with the symbiote onwards.

 

[Jick]

And Norman is more powerful than Venom. He could wipe the floor with Venom if he wanted to.

 

[AIRWOLF]

This whole thing started up again :S? Well keep it cool .

 

[The Joker]

My ignorance is coming into play again - I didn't know that Octavius and Osborn were always like that to a degree.

It's cool. Not everyone has read all their stories.

It's true, they were pretty unpleasant people. Osborn even cheated Stromm out of his invention of the Goblin serum and framed him for fraud or embezzlement. He was totally estranged and unpleasant to Harry.

Octavius was the same. Arrogant, egotistical, abusive to his co-workers. He even killed his own mother in a fit of rage.

But Brock did choose to accept the symbiote - he could have rejected it but was too weak-willed to do so. Sorry if I phrased my point about him choosing his destiny badly because what I really meant was that when he came face to face with the opportunity that was the symbiote, he accepted it with open arms. Octavius and Osborn only accepted their power after they acquired it. Sure, he had given up and resigned himself to suicide, but I wasn't talking about that - rather, I was talking about the evil deeds before that and from the encounter with the symbiote onwards.

Osborn and Octavius didn't have to accept their power either. They could have searched for cures. They're both scientists. Or used their powers for noble purposes. Ock even had his tentacles surgically removed once by the authorities, but he refused to give them up and retained his mental link with them.

Thing is that these guys were just bad people.

 

[The Rose]

To be honest, that was my reaction too...

This whole thing started up again :S? Well keep it cool .

It was destined to be. Don't worry, there won't be any kind of heated argument.

 

[Orb]

This whole thing started up again :S? Well keep it cool .

How about a all-out war? Hows that sounds?

 

[Duskbyday]

Octavius was the same. Arrogant, egotistical, abusive to his co-workers. He even killed his own mother in a fit of rage.

Actually, his mother died from a heart attack. He had a argument with her before she died and was deeply depressed, blaming himself. Origins always change though.

 

[The Joker]

Actually, his mother died from a heart attack. He had a argument with her before she died and was deeply depressed, blaming himself.

Heart attack brought on by him verbally attacking her.

Origins always change though.

They didn't change it. But they did tweak it a bit a few years ago in Year One:

Spoiler

 

[Anwar]

If Norman can out-think Peter and create inventions to neutralize his powers he could easily do the same to the less-stable and less-intelligent Venom.

Heck, Ben Reilly took out Venom pretty easily on his own.

 

[Duskbyday]

my mistake.