Has Fox hit a dead end with their Marvel Properties?

[RoryTate]

Two of my top 3 favourite superheroes are Nightcrawler and Rachel Summers/Grey (one of whom is in this movie), and I don't have much interest in watching X-Men: Apocalypse. There are a number of reasons for this, but the core of the decision for me is that the Apocalypse arc from the comics was never consistently great, and the trailers, reviews and WOM for the movie didn't impress me.

As someone said earlier in this thread, figuring out what went wrong here, or simply what could be improved -- since it could be argued that nothing specifically went wrong -- is going to be really tough for Fox. What do you take away from such an average outing? In the end though, I don't think anyone could argue against them bringing in some fresh ideas, because it does feel somewhat stale at this time.

 

[WarMachine68]

I don't see how it's a dead end.

For me I was excited to see the standard x-men team in Apocalypse, it was basically the best aspect of the movie, and I felt like "good, finally we can get back to the x-men". I want to see what's next for them.

Currently I'm not clear on whether the characters we see in Apocalypse HAVE to have a future that ends them up exactly where we see Wolverine find them happy and alive at the end of DOFP, OR, if they have an unknown future.

If it's an unknown future not bound to that, then, they are good to go, and don't need this Cable story I'm about to suggest below.

But, if it is bound to that, which I feel it is, then that's a big restriction to the possible storylines, plus you would have the weirdness of the time catching up and seeing that, for example, Jean doesn't look like Famke Jensen. (It also meant that I knew nobody was going to die in Apocalypse, because they can't...)

I think the solution is for the next X-men movie to have Cable in it. The way it would go is that at the end of DOFP, in the history of those people that we see happy and alive at the school, 20 years ago Cable did NOT show up from a time portal from the future.

BUT, in the next x-men movie with the new young cast, Cable Does show up from the future, thus creating a new branch time line. It can be quickly and easily explained by Cable and/or Xavier. That might mean that the x-men movies are using both the LOST type of time travel and the Back To The Future type of time travel at the same time, but, hey, they do that in the star trek franchise and it's ok.

X7: So how about it's still the cold war, 1988, and Cable comes back from an alternate future where the Soviets cause some terrible, possibly anti-mutant, future, with Omega Red involved. Colossus can be introduced. Stuff happens in the movie that finally makes Magneto and Mystique become bad guys. They also do something that makes it so the horrible long Soviet future doesn't happen and the cold war will end just like it did in real life, maybe the berlin wall comes down / is referenced in the movie after Omega Red is defeated.

X8: Then in the next movie, it's roughly 1993, grunge and Nirvana lol, we meet Rogue who is under Mystique's wing, and then some kind of new alien superhero character made just for this movie gets drained by Rogue and she gains her superpowers and joins the X-men. The plot mainly has the x-men fighting the brotherhood. Probably Quicksilver joins his dad. Maybe introduce a good version of Juggernaut. Merge Gambit at the end to meet Rogue if that works, I dunno about the Gambit movie.

X9: The final movie, in roughly 1999, is about Asteroid M, and a little bit of aliens (possibly they are looking for the alien superhero that Rogue put in a coma) and the Phoenix. Then at the end of the movie when everything is back to normal, Wolverine shows up at the school and symbolically brings us back full circle to X-men 2000.

Future: Any future movies would skip the time during X-men, X2 and Last Stand (that time period, regardless of timeline lol) and start after that, which I guess is what, X-force or whatever.

 

[Tony Stark]

Again, this is not about what anyone liked in particular or even what possible future properties, this is about a franchise that is in fatigue. What happened to XMA is pretty much exactly what happened with TASM2.

TASM2 didn't make much less than DOFP did but because of prospective budgets DOFP was profitable and TASM2 was not. However XMA will not be profitable and won't make much more than 600M WW if that.

They already rebooted the franchise and First Class did OK but had tepid box office. Granted 2011 was a bad year at the box office in general. But because Fox had a first rate cast and struck gold with someone like JLaw who signed a contract before her fame and fortune that is worth less than 1/3 of what she would get now.

Having said that, I don't see anyone of these young X-men except perhaps Even Peters who would be a draw for general audiences.

It's fascinating to me to see that the writing was plain as day on TASM2, but now that the same thing is happening to X-men, folks are in denial.

 

[Logan0327]

^sounds like you are in denial the marvel properties are fine

deadpool 2,new mutants,x force and they will do another main x men team movie

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Well this is getting too far into "vs.," suffice to say Apocalypse is a much better movie than either Thor (or Iron Man 2 for that matter) no matter the RT score.

With that said, you are right, Apocalypse is making a lot less than DOFP. There is a problem that Fox will have to rectify, unlike Marvel. With that said, one disappointment and jumping to a "dead end" thread just feels like fanboy gloating.

Deadpool was a hit, the new "reboot" cast at the end of Apocalypse was well-received, and Apocalypse will still make money. Go back to the drawing board and do better next time.

With that said, I really want a Phoenix movie done well, and I could see Fox conceding that the X-Men movies are declining in popularity and just cutting the budget massively for the next X-Men film. That would be a shame.

Lol, so as long as your opinion is stated that's the end of any need of discussion? That's quite the attitude. I'd say that Apocalypse is significantly worse than anything in the MCU. They've never done anything even remotely as cheesy as the blue bore. It's like something from an exaggerated kids show.

They clearly have no finger on the pulse of how a comic book element like that is balanced.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I kinda disagree with OP about the x-franchise. This installment wasn't DoFP, but it was at minimum a passable in-between film and i'm still stoked about the future of the franchise. And then um... Deadpool rocked my ****in socks.

 

[Wildcard]

I think it's less a matter of Fox hitting a dead-end with the series overall so much as it is they just need to choose better talent when it comes to developing these properties. Of course audiences are going to get tired when they keep seeing the same characters get the spotlight in EVERY film.

That's one of the reasons DP was such a huge success. Not only was it true to the source, but it offered fresh and interesting faces.

When it comes to the X-Men movies they mainly focus on Magneto, Mystique & Wolverine. It's made the movies boring because nobody else gets to do anything of note. The X-Men is one of the most expansive properties Marvel has & the same characters get used over & over.

Once they offer something new and good, audiences will show up again. 'Til then, they'll just wait for the friendly neighborhood Pool guy.

 

[WarMachine68]

Are you saying that XMA didn't make enough money, so definitively that they are definitely not going to make another x-men movie? That seems not true.

 

[Tony Stark]

Are you saying that XMA didn't make enough money, so definitively that they are definitely not going to make another x-men movie? That seems not true.

I'm saying it's diminishing returns. Trying to force a cast of uknown in yet another reboot is not going to produce a movie that performs better than this one did.

Deadpool is a huge success (the one project they've done without Kinberg as lead writer), and there's definitely a future there.

 

[Tony Stark]

^sounds like you are in denial the marvel properties are fine

deadpool 2,new mutants,x force and they will do another main x men team movie

I've been clear that Deadpool is a different situation. You're honestly telling me, another x-men proper film is going to make more money than this one did?

When this film drops more than the 64% that DOFP did this weekend, come talk to me.

 

[DACrowe]

TDW pulled in 85 million it's opening weekend, XM:A only pulled in 65 million. That along with the numbers for Dead pool, Batman v Superman, and Civil War make a pretty strong case for XM:A being a far bigger box office disappointment for Fox than TDW was for Marvel.

To be fair it actually grossed $79 million (yes, Memorial Day is a 3-day weekend), which is in the same ball park.

With that said, you are correct Thor is in a stronger position, because it can piggyback on the Avengers films to keep the character relevant. It is kind of the ingenuity of the Marvel model. My suspicion is Fox will do something similar by trying to combine the X-Men with Deadpool. Do I think that will work? No idea. Is it what I want to see? Not really. But the point is that the franchise, like Thor 2, is making money, so there will be more. The quality and direction of that "more" is another issue though. I just find discussions like this to be fanboy overreaction.

 

[Wildcard]

I'm saying it's diminishing returns. Trying to force a cast of uknown in yet another reboot is not going to produce a movie that performs better than this one did.

Deadpool is a huge success (the one project they've done without Kinberg as lead writer), and there's definitely a future there.

There it is right there.

 

[DACrowe]

The difference to me between First Class and Apocalypse underperforming is that for First Class there was a clear explanation as to why. TLS and XMO sucked and depressed the box office. Apocalypse meanwhile is coming off the franchises two biggest successes in DOFP and Deadpool. Reviews were mediocre, but not completely horrendous. The Cinemascore was okay. What went wrong and how to fix it has no easy answer.

While it is way too much to say this franchise has hit a dead end, I think it is fair to say it is at a crossroads.

I agree with this. But that is a rational, reasoned response as opposed to "The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Now give the rights back to Marvel, Lulz!"

Personally I would stay away from Dark Phoenix. I know it is an iconic storyline and it was done horribly before, but it was done. The last thing I would want right now if I was Fox would be to remind general audiences (most of whom aren't familiar with the comics) of arguably the worst film in the franchise.

Yes and no. I think the trick is to go big with a different director and writer, both with vastly different energy, and build to Dark Phoenix. I do think going to space would help with that. Put the X-Men in some weird cosmic adventures unlike what other superhero movies are doing (not "stop bad guy from destroying/enslaving Earth" which JL and Avengers are about to do... hopefully better than Apocalypse did).

Then if that works and it actually grows the audience instead of shrinking it, in the third or fourth movie with the "kids," do the Dark Phoenix. At that point, it will be a whole different ballgame. Or the franchise implodes.

 

[DACrowe]

Lol, so as long as your opinion is stated that's the end of any need of discussion? That's quite the attitude. I'd say that Apocalypse is significantly worse than anything in the MCU. They've never done anything even remotely as cheesy as the blue bore. It's like something from an exaggerated kids show.

They clearly have no finger on the pulse of how a comic book element like that is balanced.

You really are obsessed with me, aren't you? You go from thread to thread and take things I said out of context and try to pick some kind of nerd fight.

What I clearly said in that post was that we were devolving into a Thor 2 discussion, so I explained why I preferred Apocalypse in a sentence to keep the thread on topic, which the rest of my post (that you ignored) is about. That is also why I am not wasting another sentence after this talking to you here.

 

[Dasher10]

I don't feel like Fox have hit a dead end, they just ran into a film that felt like more of a retread with Apocalypse because XMA was a reboot and reboots seldom do well anymore. It's not a dead end, it's a stumbling block since First Class, DOFP and Deadpool were all great films and XMA in contrast is merely good.

I don't feel like it's as bad of a foundation for the next X-Men series as FF2015. It's perfectly salvagable. The new cast are great (but Sophie Turner needs an accent coach) but it's a matter of focus. We've already seen Xavier's story. Wolverine has his own film series. It's time to focus on Scott, Jean and Ororo.

We also need new villains. We need a break from Magneto and Stryker. Leave Magneto as a minor cameo and don't even use Stryker at all. Don't mention him. We've seen Magneto how many times now? He's been an antagonist in X-Men, X-Men 3 and X-Men Apocalypse and an anti-hero in X-Men 2, X-Men: First Class and X-Men: Days of Future Past. He's an interesting character but the X-Men have other villains. And Stryker has also been done to death FOUR TIMES now.

Singer also would work far better as a producer. He's already directed four of the films so far. We need a new voice. We also need a new screenwriter. Kinberg knows the characters and knows how to use him but making him a producer would also work better since his dialog is a bit bland. May I suggest that Mark Millar who's already a consultant for Fox who write both Ultimate X-Men and two separate Wolverine runs might actually work better as a screenwriter? Or David Hayter who wrote the first two films? Or how about both of them together?

And write Msytique and Quicksilver out. Make X-Factor a thing and give them their own team with the next film teasing an X-Factor spin-off. I'd drop Mystique in the film as a minor character and state that she's now working for the government and brought Quicksilver with her to handle the problem that the X-Men are currently trying to handle. They'd be more minor supporting characters rather than leads.

We should also not get the X-Mansion attacked again. It happened in the First X-Men movie. It happened in the second and it happened in Apocalypse. I know that Sinister was teased but he needs to be like Thanos or Darkseid where he's built up over a course of several films. The biggest stories starring Sinister are Mutant Massacre Inferno and Messiah Complex. All three of those involve an attack on the X-Mansion. I say to wait a while since the X-Mansion can only be invaded so many times before it gets old. I'd also avoid a direct attack on Xavier altogether since that's also gotten cliche.

I'd also make Beast blue and furry the entire time but give him a smaller role. I'd make Xavier, Beast, Mystique and Moira be a subplot where they're arguing with Moira on Muir island and only get as much screen time as the original cast in DOFP got. The bulk of the movie would be in Edinburgh as Proteus causes a huge mess. Quicksilver's entire role would be to rescue the team from Proteus in one scene and then he heads back to Muir Island to protect Moira. Again, minor role. Magneto's only role would be freeing Proteus at the very beginning after undergoing a de-aging treatment (which is also stated to have been applied to Beast and Xavier). He then shows up after the credits where he gains control of the space station where the third act takes place and rebuilds it as Asteroid M/Avalon. Again, a really minor role.

Wolverine and Gambit would be the new additions to the team. Gambit is immune to Proteus' mind control powers since he's stated to have telepathic immunity so Proteus contains him physically.

Most of the film's first act will be spent explaining the conflict and having the X-Men lose to Proteus with jean dying, second act would be the X-Men dealing with their darkest nightmares as Proteus has managed to literally get inside their heads (or in Storm's case, she's also buried alive.) The X-Men are forced to confront their fears one by one until Quicksilver saves them at the end of the second act (except for Jean who's dead and Storm who frees herself and reestablishes telepathic contact with Xavier who sends Quicksilver to handle the rest.) The third act is going to be where Proteus merges with Jean and brings her back to life and as he's controlling her, she's about to eat the sun and destroy all life on Earth. Jean expels Kevin and in his true form as an energy being, he's only weak against metal so Wolverine kills him.

We'd also see a teenage Rogue set up for the next film. Mystique and Destiny adopted her. Rogue's present in Muir Island with Xavier, Beast, Moira, Mystique and Quicksilver. Destiny only appears in one scene in the first act after Magneto trashes Muir Island.

Now as for the Fantastic Four? That's dead in the water. Fox can't fix it. If they do a sequel, they'll be doing a sequel to a failed reboot to a failed film series. If they reboot again, they'll be doing a reboot to a reboot of a failed film series. The FF can't be done at Fox at this point. The series has a reputation like the Grown Ups or Transformers at this point except even audiences are apathetic. Nobody wants to see another FF film at Fox. The only way to make it work is to introduce the FF in the MCU. Fox need to work out a deal with Marvel. Period.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Deadpool says no.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Yes and no. I think the trick is to go big with a different director and writer, both with vastly different energy, and build to Dark Phoenix. I do think going to space would help with that. Put the X-Men in some weird cosmic adventures unlike what other superhero movies are doing (not "stop bad guy from destroying/enslaving Earth" which JL and Avengers are about to do... hopefully better than Apocalypse did).

Then if that works and it actually grows the audience instead of shrinking it, in the third or fourth movie with the "kids," do the Dark Phoenix. At that point, it will be a whole different ballgame. Or the franchise implodes.

I'm fine with building towards Dark Phoenix, at which time hopefully the franchise would have a larger base audience. I just think doing Dark Phoenix in the very next film after Apocalypse would be very poor timing.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Of note, everything I've said so far pertains to X-Men only. Fox's other Marvel property, Fantastic Four, truly is a dead brand. They can prop the corpse up like El Cid if they want, but I can't see it ever being a viable franchise for Fox again.

 

[Dasher10]

Of note, everything I've said so far pertains to X-Men only. Fox's other Marvel property, Fantastic Four, truly is a dead brand. They can prop the corpse up like El Cid if they want, but I can't see it ever being a viable franchise for Fox again.

When was it ever a viable franchise for Fox?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

When was it ever a viable franchise for Fox?

The first Story film made money.

 

[Spiderine]

I'm fine with building towards Dark Phoenix, at which time hopefully the franchise would have a larger base audience. I just think doing Dark Phoenix in the very next film after Apocalypse would be very poor timing.

As much as I would like to see the Phoenix saga done justice I don't think audiences would sit through any variation of it again. They better do something different that hasn't been touched on yet. Just more repetition and rehashed stories.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I feel that the series needs to be retired for a while.

Start over fresh, with some new faces, and new ideas. Of course that won't happen.

 

[Tony Stark]

I feel that the series needs to be retired for a while.

Start over fresh, with some new faces, and new ideas. Of course that won't happen.

If they don't take your approach, inevitably this will happen. This isn't like the 90's where the market was starved for good comic book films, or even the early 00's where things were hit or miss.

The market is saturated with good films in the genre, and movie-goers won't accept mediocrity.

The film industry is about money and the one thing that no one has proven wrong is the fact that this film is likely to lose money, and Fantastic Four definitely lost money.

Deadpool is a huge success. So if you're a Fox exec, are your going to greenlight a solo Cable movie? Or would you have him as a side character in Deadpool 2, and see how that goes first?

 

[Rorschach2012]

Bring on the reboot

 

[Adhesive Boy]

You really are obsessed with me, aren't you? You go from thread to thread and take things I said out of context and try to pick some kind of nerd fight.

What I clearly said in that post was that we were devolving into a Thor 2 discussion, so I explained why I preferred Apocalypse in a sentence to keep the thread on topic, which the rest of my post (that you ignored) is about. That is also why I am not wasting another sentence after this talking to you here.

I'm just amused over how you present your opinions, which I've now seen in several threads. It's just special when someone even says that some things are objectively better. Few go that far. Of course I must be obsessed with you though, despite not responding to all the times you've done what I referred to. That interpretation would go hand in hand with that.