Justice League Henry Cavill IS Clark Kent/Superman - - - - - - Part 15

[misslane38]

I also like Bruce addressing Diana shutting herself off from mankind for a century, him name-dropping Steve Trevor and Diana shoving him. That, I think, is probably the absolute best addition from Whedon.

I hated that scene. I thought the premise was terrible, as I don't think Diana would use Bruce's grief against him, and he wouldn't be so petty as to return that type of attack in kind. I didn't like how so much of Diana's arc was reduced to her grieving Steve, just like Lois's was for Clark, and I don't think Diana would ever push someone human around as forcefully as she did. Realistically, it would have wounded Bruce, and it's not in character given how she was able to rebuff Bruce in much more effective way in BvS. It was immature and disrespectful to both characters, in my opinion.

I would have much preferred if the debate about what to do with Superman involved Lois, who would have been a more natural person for Diana to talk to about her grief, if that needed to be included. Lois and Martha, as Clark's loved ones, deserved to have a say about his body and his life. Turning it into a petty squabble between Bruce and Diana was a huge missed opportunity.

 

[GothamBat]

I hated that scene. I thought the premise was terrible, as I don't think Diana would use Bruce's grief against him, and he wouldn't be so petty as to return that type of attack in kind. I didn't like how so much of Diana's arc was reduced to her grieving Steve, just like Lois's was for Clark, and I don't think Diana would ever push someone human around as forcefully as she did. Realistically, it would have wounded Bruce, and it's not in character given how she was able to rebuff Bruce in much more effective way in BvS. It was immature and disrespectful to both characters, in my opinion.

I would have much preferred if the debate about what to do with Superman involved Lois, who would have been a more natural person for Diana to talk to about her grief, if that needed to be included. Lois and Martha, as Clark's loved ones, deserved to have a say about his body and his life. Turning it into a petty squabble between Bruce and Diana was a huge missed opportunity.

I just liked that it ended up injecting some connective tissue between Wonder Woman and Justice League. It sort of explained what Diana meant when she said she walked away from mankind. They couldn't have her just idly stand by during World War 2 but they couldn't have her be a public superhero either so they struck a pretty agreeable compromise in my opinion. It felt like a pretty subtle and intelligent middle-ground which makes me wonder if the scene or the notion already existed in the Snyder cut. I don't think she pushed Bruce with all her strength or anything. It looks more intense than it was because right as he hits that shelf, Barry's lightening makes sparks, indicating that he had a reaction like Arthur did. By the way, I also appreciated the subtle concern Arthur and Barry showed, pacing around Bruce and Diana, ready to step in if need be. It wasn't overtly spelled out. It was quite "show don't tell" and as such it felt quite Snydery.

I doubt Diana's intent was to "use Bruce's grief against him". She simply made a remark about him needing to move on and not be so controlled by his guilt. I liked the character development there. It shows that Diana has developed a good understanding of Bruce and his history. It also shows Bruce understands Diana and what makes her tick. I really appreciated their relationship and chemistry being furthered in that regard.

There's a few things I didn't like about the scene for sure. I didn't like Affleck's delivery when he started angrily making his case about why Superman needed to be brought back. He made weird hand gestures and it wasn't filmed or staged or acted that well imo... He also came across way too aggressive, unnecessarily so.

I thought him saying "Steppenwolf is not out there talking about ethics" sounded cheesy too. But my biggest problem is how big of a leap in logic there was. It was clearly due to them cutting out all the material that supplemented Bruce's decision. In the Snyder cut, there would have been a bunch of scenes of him investigating and drawing the appropriate conclusions. Here it just kind of came out of nowhere. It had to be that way due to the run-time. No investigating STAR labs, no researching Kryptonian physiology, no actual scenes of him deciphering Lex's notes... Just him deciding it could be done and needed to be done really abruptly.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Let me guess, it will be an announcement about a show called "The Kents" that shows on how the two met and got married before they ever found a certain infant in the cornfield.

Since JL came out herolee you have become my new fav poster.

As for the scene between Diana and Bruce I don't think she was using his grief against him she was telling him like it is.

 

[misslane38]

I just liked that it ended up injecting some connective tissue between Wonder Woman and Justice League. It sort of explained what Diana meant when she said she walked away from mankind. They couldn't have her just idly stand by during World War 2 but they couldn't have her be a public superhero either so they struck a pretty agreeable compromise in my opinion. It felt like a pretty subtle and intelligent middle-ground which makes me wonder if the scene or the notion already existed in the Snyder cut.

Such connective tissue wasn't needed, as BvS and WW already explained what Diana did. She realized that regular people, not heroes, should be in charge of their own destiny and their own path towards light or dark. As a result, she chose to remain a hero, but in the shadows, helping but not leading. To her, that meant not standing together with mankind or other groups, like teams of heroes, which is what she told Bruce in BvS. It's also information covered in another scene in JL when Diana talks about her reservations about being a leader. Snyder's way of addressing Diana's century in the shadows was found in her conversation with Victor. She spoke to him about shutting herself off, which again, has nothing to do with shutting herself off as a hero, but as someone who leads or works with others. Both of those explanations, found elsewhere in other films and other scenes in JL, don't cross the line this scene does by making it all about Steve Trevor. Can you imagine anyone being okay with a Superman who gave up being Superman -- a public superhero who inspired people -- for a century just because Lois died? Also, if it was a fair explanation, I don't think Diana would be so insulted by it.

I don't think she pushed Bruce with all her strength or anything. It looks more intense than it was because right as he hits that shelf, Barry's lightening makes sparks, indicating that he had a reaction like Arthur did. By the way, I also appreciated the subtle concern Arthur and Barry showed, pacing around Bruce and Diana, ready to step in if need be. It wasn't overtly spelled out. It was quite "show don't tell" and as such it felt quite Snydery.

Diana pushed him hard enough for him to move more than most would if hit by someone using normal human strength, and she shouldn't be so volatile.

I doubt Diana's intent was to "use Bruce's grief against him". She simply made a remark about him needing to move on and not be so controlled by his guilt. I liked the character development there. It shows that Diana has developed a good understanding of Bruce and his history. It also shows Bruce understands Diana and what makes her tick. I really appreciated their relationship and chemistry being furthered in that regard.

Diana could have conveyed the same message without throwing Bruce's parents' deaths in his face. The fact that Diana reacts so angrily to Bruce doing the same to her shows how much it hurts when the shoe is on the other foot. Both of their approaches lacked maturity and empathy. These are also ideas and emotions that could have been expressed better in a scene with Lois and Martha. Lois was there the last time Bruce let his grief rule him, and Diana was there when Lois and her shared a look of shared grief and understanding for their lost boyfriends. Martha and Bruce met because he was fulfilling his first promise to Clark (save Martha), saving the world from Steppenwolf being his second. Filtering all of their grief -- Lois, Martha, Diana, Bruce -- through the prism of their shared connections and experiences while also being thoughtful about Martha's and Lois' right to weigh in on Clark's resurrection would have been far superior.

 

[Consona]

[YT]FZuGC010m_k[/YT]

 

[Consona]

This guy gets it


[YT]ESoyQsPa72Y[/YT]

Absolutely great!

 

[GothamBat]

Spoiler

Such connective tissue wasn't needed, as BvS and WW already explained what Diana did. She realized that regular people, not heroes, should be in charge of their own destiny and their own path towards light or dark. As a result, she chose to remain a hero, but in the shadows, helping but not leading. To her, that meant not standing together with mankind or other groups, like teams of heroes, which is what she told Bruce in BvS. It's also information covered in another scene in JL when Diana talks about her reservations about being a leader. Snyder's way of addressing Diana's century in the shadows was found in her conversation with Victor. She spoke to him about shutting herself off, which again, has nothing to do with shutting herself off as a hero, but as someone who leads or works with others. Both of those explanations, found elsewhere in other films and other scenes in JL, don't cross the line this scene does by making it all about Steve Trevor. Can you imagine anyone being okay with a Superman who gave up being Superman -- a public superhero who inspired people -- for a century just because Lois died? Also, if it was a fair explanation, I don't think Diana would be so insulted by it.



Diana pushed him hard enough for him to move more than most would if hit by someone using normal human strength, and she shouldn't be so volatile.



Diana could have conveyed the same message without throwing Bruce's parents' deaths in his face. The fact that Diana reacts so angrily to Bruce doing the same to her shows how much it hurts when the shoe is on the other foot. Both of their approaches lacked maturity and empathy. These are also ideas and emotions that could have been expressed better in a scene with Lois and Martha. Lois was there the last time Bruce let his grief rule him, and Diana was there when Lois and her shared a look of shared grief and understanding for their lost boyfriends. Martha and Bruce met because he was fulfilling his first promise to Clark (save Martha), saving the world from Steppenwolf being his second. Filtering all of their grief -- Lois, Martha, Diana, Bruce -- through the prism of their shared connections and experiences while also being thoughtful about Martha's and Lois' right to weigh in on Clark's resurrection would have been far superior.

She didn't overtly throw his parents' death in his face. She alluded to it, sure, but also to Bruce's predisposition towards feeling guilty and be obsessive in the aftermath of other people's deaths like with Jack and his other employees at the beginning of BVS. It felt appropriate to me. It wasn't done out of spite. It was kind of a tough love kind of thing. But yes, I agree that the Snyder cut would have probably been far superior at handling these themes and this interplay.

 

[Consona]

 

[flickchick85]

I don't get the hubub over the black suit, tbh. The only thing nice about that clip for me was hearing Zimmer's music again.

 

[Consona]

I don't get the hubub over the black suit, tbh. The only thing nice about that clip for me was hearing Zimmer's music again.

It was not about the black suit. That scene was about seeing the true Superman again.

 

[flickchick85]

Yeah...didn't see it myself. I just saw Cavill walking around looking a bit confused.

 

[Black Narcissus]

I don't get the hubub over the black suit, tbh. The only thing nice about that clip for me was hearing Zimmer's music again.

I don't either.

Let them burn.

 

[Consona]

Watched it again, that scene is a pure poetry. It's so unlike any other CBM. The feel, those visuals, the pacing, the music, the way Kal El turns away from the black suit and his face enters the light. The symbolism! Snyder = god.

 

[GothamBat]

 

[Arachnerd]

That's not the best image of the meme.

There we go.

 

[kguillou]

Yeah...didn't see it myself. I just saw Cavill walking around looking a bit confused.

I think that right there more or less summarizes people who like Snyders work and people who dont. I could easily picture someone watching this clip and being like, "okkk? Big deal." And thats totally cool, I get that perspective 100%. But then someone like me, admires the camera work, the atmospheric imagery and sounds and music and just gets sucked into it. And i love the stoic yet subtle look in Cavill's eyes when he's looking at the suit showing that he's ready to embrace his destiny.

But again, thats how I personally have learned to digest Zack's stuff and I can completely understand other people being like, "i just see a dude walking around and moody music. Boring." I think that sums up how people receive his movies in general.

 

[GothamBat]

What Clark really saw in the scout ship. Batman turned into a punk b**ch by Whedon. He had the same reaction as all of us.

 

[RomanticPenguin]

I don't get the hubub over the black suit, tbh. The only thing nice about that clip for me was hearing Zimmer's music again.

 

[Tra-El]

I don't get the hubub over the black suit, tbh. The only thing nice about that clip for me was hearing Zimmer's music again.

In a weird sense of living in a fanboy/fangirl world with these characters, it's basically no different than how Batman fans would feel about Bruce's suit being black or grey or having the Bat-insignia a certain shape or size like the gold Bat-oval from Batman '89. The black suit has its own place in Superman lore that some fans will simply appreciate and fawn over. I know we got the black suit in MoS and that was great but to see the black suit pop out as an Easter Egg in this scene basically offers some sort of comfort or closure to any type of Superman/death arc that fans are conditioned to accept. The scene might not feel like much but it's reminiscent of acknowledging the mythos and that's appreciated. For me atleast. JL dropped so many balls. This being one of them.

 

[Superchan]

It was a joke, mate. Hence the sarcasm emote. I wouldn't use it if I were being 100% serious about something. It's that half the time your posts can come across as quite hyperbolic.

Oh I got the emote but I noticed you tend to get abit agitated when some one criticizes Snyder's work.

'Hyperbolic'? Really? This is coming from the person who just posted a pic of Snyder as the big ol'JC.
My hyperbolic posts are a reaction to the hyperbolic posts by some Snyder fans on this forum. It's ok to love the guy's work and think he's the second coming but it should also be ok to loath the guy's work and think he's a hack who has no business touching superman or any other superhero. Besides if you're too sensitive about reading my criticisms regarding Snyder then simply put me on ignore, you'll probably feel much better.

And we don't know how Superman was portrayed in Snyder's cut. You're making a lot of assumptions here in part based on your bias.

Yeah after over 5 hours of MOS and BvS one should know what to expect from Snyder's superman and ask yourself why most of Superman's scenes in JL were reshot and why we ended up with the over the top course corrected superman from the Whedon.

I know twitter is a cesspool of antagonism and obstinance but if you look at the comments on the tweet from the official JL twitter posting that new Snyder Superman scene, literally 100% of them are completely outraged responses from angry fans saying they'll boycott everything DC an WB until the Snyder cut is released.

The core fandom is livid and WB needs to win them back if they want to go back to making a bunch of money like they were with BVS, SS and WW. If it was some people scattered here and there among generally positive feedback then I can see WB brushing it off but when it's basically all of the core fandom then you need to win them back.

It would help if you don't take fanboy threats on twitter seriously, those are the same fans who b****ed about the last jedi after watching it for the 5th time.
The majority fans are livid because WB have been feeding them **** sandwiches like MOS, BvS and SS and not because they won't get the Snyder cut.
What WB really needs to do is win the general public back with a series of good movies because it's that audience that looked at JL and remembered what BvS was like and said 'no thanks'.

80% of profit for any business is derived from 20% of the consumer base, the hardcore fans.

Come again.

 

[idiot09]

This deleted scene is so much more than just a black suit tease.

It mirrors his first embracement of the Superman identity in MOS, its him coming full circle, realising his place in the world, and embracing it. Him choosing to take up the mantle of Superman, once again, after the world turned on him, and it got him killed. No words, no exposition, no voiceovers. Pure visual storytelling.

I love it. Add that to fanboy elements like the suit teases, the familar score, and the fact it looks good, I say its a pretty good scene!

 

[heatvision38]

Yeah...didn't see it myself. I just saw Cavill walking around looking a bit confused.

I would say pensive, not confused.

 

[flickchick85]

I think that right there more or less summarizes people who like Snyders work and people who dont. I could easily picture someone watching this clip and being like, "okkk? Big deal." And thats totally cool, I get that perspective 100%. But then someone like me, admires the camera work, the atmospheric imagery and sounds and music and just gets sucked into it. And i love the stoic yet subtle look in Cavill's eyes when he's looking at the suit showing that he's ready to embrace his destiny.

But again, thats how I personally have learned to digest Zack's stuff and I can completely understand other people being like, "i just see a dude walking around and moody music. Boring." I think that sums up how people receive his movies in general.

I think you're right that atmosphere/aesthetic is the biggest deciding factor in whether or not someone likes Snyder's approach to things. I've never cared for his aesthetic, because it reeks of surface level and artifice to me. I prefer when a movie looks like it was shot in the real world (which is why MoS is my favorite film of his aesthetically, because it actually looks like it was). Even sci-fi stuff like Abrams' Star Trek had that feel and I dug it (minus lens flares, lol).

Now THIS particular scene doesn't have that problem, because it's a spaceship, and so I obviously expect that to be shot on a soundstage. So I have no problem with the aesthetic here. It's just...two movies of Cavill walking around looking contemplative or confused hasn't said "true Superman" to me, and it still doesn't. The black suit is a nice Easter Egg like the Robin suit in BvS, but nothing more to me.

 

[Black Narcissus]

I'm kinda glad it was cut. It would be wasteful to show that suit as only an easter egg. It sucks we didn't get Superman kicking ass in it, but I prefer to have nothing over this lame wink at the fans.

 

[Tra-El]

Not having the black suit on Supes is more evidence of the studio not having a clue. Even more shocking that Zack didn't intend to have Superman in it either. Zack is great at pulling sourced material and he's the same guy who went full on Dark Knight Returns armor for BvS. I thought the black suit was going to be automatic. There's so many epic elements that are so obvious that should have been. But it is what it is.