Justice League Henry Cavill IS Clark Kent/Superman - - - - - - - Part 16

[Black Narcissus]

Actors can get ''good ideas'' all the time, but it means jack if you don't have the director and writer in place. McQuarrie fills both of those, so hoping it all works out. Cavill deserves better.

 

[chintai80]

They would have had their billion dolls plus film if they hadn't of rushed into it. Maybe more than one film could have hit a billion, or close to it.

We should have had,
Mos
The Batman
World's finest
WW
Flash
A Good GL film
Shazam
And AQ.

That all should have happened first before JL was even thought about.

But If BvS just had to be made then it should have been a WF film instead.
Joker, Lex, and metallo could have been the villains with just a very minor conflict between superman and Batman at the first, a turf thing if you will.

Doomsday was way to soon, and was a joke in the way he looked and the way they used him.
I've grown tired of the ten foot tall villains.

this would've been a good gameplan and something i would've preferred.
and i did like BvS: UE too.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Eh, I think the WB game plan was fine. The strategy wasn't the problem. The problem was all the behind the scenes nonsense that went on with these films.

 

[chintai80]

Eh, I think the WB game plan was fine. The strategy wasn't the problem. The problem was all the behind the scenes nonsense that went on with these films.

this especially true for JL.

BvS to a lesser extent - should have never released that theatrical cut into theaters.
the UE shouldve always been the one to shown.

 

[RomanticPenguin]

what if wb is just holding out for patty to do it inbetween ww2 and ww3

 

[idiot09]

Eh, I think the WB game plan was fine. The strategy wasn't the problem. The problem was all the behind the scenes nonsense that went on with these films.

Exactly.

 

[idiot09]

My first introduction to the Justice League was a comic I picked in in the library when I was a bairn. I knew Superman and Batman, and had a vague knowledge of Wonder Woman, but I'd never heard of The Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern or Martian Manhunter.
The book didn't go into their backstories or give their origins, it never explained how they formed the League. And I didn't care.
It was a good story so I enjoyed it despite not having any foreknowledge of most of the characters.
Kids don't care, the general audience don't care, often if you just give them a world they'll go along with it provided it's a good story.
Look at The Incredibles, it's massively popular and viewed by many as a great superhero film, but we don't get any origins or explanations. It just says "there's a world with lots of superheroes, and the audience said "ok"

If it's done well, you can go straight to a JL film with no solos.

Yeah, its interesting. Watchmen for example, set up a whole generation of superheroes in a single montage sequence, and in a weird way defined a whole generation/decades and we got a very clear idea of who everybody was, and what went down. Then we go straight into the main story, as we are introduced to the many characters, and we figure out who they are. I think its far more interesting when we have to fill some of the gaps ourselves, than have it all laid out. You get to know who they are through their interactions and character work.

 

[MbJ]

Eh, I think the WB game plan was fine. The strategy wasn't the problem.

Gotta disagree. By planning Justice League to begin shooting so soon after Batman v. Superman, they basically shot themselves in the foot for two huge reasons.

One is that it meant that when audiences didn't react to Batman v. Superman the way WB hoped, the process was too far along to delay Justice League and start over. A major reason we ended up with the crappy Frankenstein we got is they had to start shooting soon, so they just went with it and thought fixing it via reshoots and editing would save the project. It didn't.

The other problem with this strategy was that this strategy is also tied to BVS. The fact that Justice League was a BVS sequel and that half the team hadn't gotten their own movies yet meant that if you didn't like BVS or weren't all that crazy about this version of Superman and Batman, the only real draw to get you to come see this big team-up crossover was Wonder Woman. Who already had her own film. I don't need to see a probably crappy team-up movie just to see Wonder Woman when she already has her own, far better movie I could just watch on-demand.

When it comes down to it, many of the DCEU's big problems can be traced back to the studio being arrogant and assuming that Batman v. Superman was gonna be their Avengers, and when that didn't happen they freaked out and torched the whole franchise.

 

[MbJ]

My first introduction to the Justice League was a comic I picked in in the library when I was a bairn. I knew Superman and Batman, and had a vague knowledge of Wonder Woman, but I'd never heard of The Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern or Martian Manhunter.
The book didn't go into their backstories or give their origins, it never explained how they formed the League. And I didn't care.
It was a good story so I enjoyed it despite not having any foreknowledge of most of the characters.
Kids don't care, the general audience don't care, often if you just give them a world they'll go along with it provided it's a good story.
Look at The Incredibles, it's massively popular and viewed by many as a great superhero film, but we don't get any origins or explanations. It just says "there's a world with lots of superheroes, and the audience said "ok"

If it's done well, you can go straight to a JL film with no solos.

The problem is those films were not structured to be part of a franchise, while Justice League was. We've had team movies in the past, but none of them were crossovers like Avengers was. There is a major conceptual difference between a team like the X-Men, Fantastic Four, Guardians of the Galaxy or Teen Titans, where the characters (for the most part) solely exist as part of a team, and a group like the Justice League or Avengers, where the entire premise involves an ensemble of major characters who are already leads in their own right.

Justice League was very much conceived and marketed as the latter. If it were just a standalone film, like George Miller's version, then yes, not introducing the team could've worked fine. But in this case, Justice League was very much meant to be the culmination of what came before it in the DCEU, which is why we got stuff like the post-credit scene in Suicide Squad or the Knightmare and trailer montage scenes in BVS. WB was very clearly trying to make this a big crossover event, like Avengers was for the first Phase of the MCU.

So right off the bat, the expectations are changed wildly, and you now have a double edged sword. If people liked the films leading up to your crossover, you now have a solid built-in audience. If they didn't, your crossover isn't gonna hold much appeal to them, and that's exactly what ended up happening with Justice League. People who felt burned by past DCEU movies felt no need to go see this one.

Would solo movies have changed that? It's impossible to say. But it's entirely possible that had DC put out good, well received solo movies for people like Aquaman, Flash, or even Green Lantern in the lead-up to this, that they would've had more audience goodwill left.

 

[DerekLake]

I actually think their trilogy approach with BvS and what would have been JL1 and JL2 was a problem. There are two competing parts of the strategy: have a finite story with a finite ending, and also have an extended set of solo films. I think both misread what the audience expected and wanted. If they wanted a finite, linear story, they should have just gone with it and billed it as that. If they wanted something more open-ended and long lasting like the MCU, they should have gone with that. But instead they marketed part 2 of Snyder’s limited five-part story as if it was Iron Man 2 leading to an actual sprawling megafranchise when it wasn’t. And even with BvS they were trying to market JL as DC’s answer to Avengers, when Snyder’s plan was for it to instead be more like ROTJ or Deathly Hallows Part 1. That created a mismatch in expectations, and it suggested even during BvS that WB didn’t know what they wanted.

It’s clear that, in the beginning, they wanted MOS to be the start of a Nolan-like Superman trilogy. That clearly morphed into a Superman trilogy that more or less fast-tracked to JL and Darkseid, but still Superman’s trilogy, with several spin-off solo films. But if that’s the approach, then you can’t also try to sell the DCEU as if it’s also going to be like Avengers and the rest of the MCU.

Of course, I think they should have somewhat gone with the MCU approach; if not a fully interconnected storyline, then at least a movieverse built on each character getting their own solo trilogy.

Yeah, its interesting. Watchmen for example, set up a whole generation of superheroes in a single montage sequence, and in a weird way defined a whole generation/decades and we got a very clear idea of who everybody was, and what went down. Then we go straight into the main story, as we are introduced to the many characters, and we figure out who they are. I think its far more interesting when we have to fill some of the gaps ourselves, than have it all laid out. You get to know who they are through their interactions and character work.

That only makes sense if you don’t care about each individual character getting their own films. But you can’t both do this ensemble film, no backstory approach and also try to do the solo Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman approach.

And as for filling in the gaps, writers shouldn’t need to explain everything about a character through exposition, but they most certainly have to develop everything and know everything, because that’s the only way you get believable and consistent characters. And filling in the gaps only matters if you are dealing with a mystery or thriller. Plot gaps in a story (like, Lex Luthor knowing Bruce and Clark’s identities, when the fact of the alter egos is central to the concept) are problematic and a sign of lazy writing.

 

[Aurakles]

Of course the characters need to be well developed, and the Justice League film was set up in previous DCEU movies, but my point was that going straight to Justice League is not an inherently bad idea, it just needs to be done well.

You could even start a film universe with JL if you wanted, with each Leaguer getting their own spin off.
The concept itself isn't unworkable, it's just a matter of how it's delivered.

There's a wide variety of ways to pull of a cinematic universe, provided that they are executed well.

The problem with the Justice League film we got isn't that there needed to be more solos, it just wasn't a good picture.

 

[idiot09]

I actually think their trilogy approach with BvS and what would have been JL1 and JL2 was a problem. There are two competing parts of the strategy: have a finite story with a finite ending, and also have an extended set of solo films. I think both misread what the audience expected and wanted. If they wanted a finite, linear story, they should have just gone with it and billed it as that. If they wanted something more open-ended and long lasting like the MCU, they should have gone with that. But instead they marketed part 2 of Snyder’s limited five-part story as if it was Iron Man 2 leading to an actual sprawling megafranchise when it wasn’t. And even with BvS they were trying to market JL as DC’s answer to Avengers, when Snyder’s plan was for it to instead be more like ROTJ or Deathly Hallows Part 1. That created a mismatch in expectations, and it suggested even during BvS that WB didn’t know what they wanted.

It’s clear that, in the beginning, they wanted MOS to be the start of a Nolan-like Superman trilogy. That clearly morphed into a Superman trilogy that more or less fast-tracked to JL and Darkseid, but still Superman’s trilogy, with several spin-off solo films. But if that’s the approach, then you can’t also try to sell the DCEU as if it’s also going to be like Avengers and the rest of the MCU.

I agree that the marketing and labelling were wrong. It was misrepresented and created false expectations. Bad PR.

That only makes sense if you don’t care about each individual character getting their own films. But you can’t both do this ensemble film, no backstory approach and also try to do the solo Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman approach.

The ensemble can be done as a starting off point, with the solos coming later. Black Panther, Wonder Woman are good examples.

And as for filling in the gaps, writers shouldn’t need to explain everything about a character through exposition, but they most certainly have to develop everything and know everything, because that’s the only way you get believable and consistent characters. And filling in the gaps only matters if you are dealing with a mystery or thriller. Plot gaps in a story (like, Lex Luthor knowing Bruce and Clark’s identities, when the fact of the alter egos is central to the concept) are problematic and a sign of lazy writing.

Well duh. Ofcourse the writing needs to be good, that's stating the obvious, and that goes for any approach. And Lex knowing their identities makes sense to me.

 

[The Guard]

BATMAN V SUPERMAN was never intended to be WB's "AVENGERS". This is a common comparison that just makes no sense to me.

With regard to solo films...WB made one less film than Marvel did prior to their superteam movie. They made MOS, they basically introduced Batman as a major character and touched on his origin in BVS, and Wonder Woman had a solo before JUSTICE LEAGUE.

The issue, with the exception of the villain, isn't that they didn't introduce the major players...the issue is that audiences didn't respond to several of those portrayals or the execution of JUSTICE LEAGUE. The response to WONDER WOMAN fairly strongly indicates that if the execution is good, that people will show up for solos after characters are introduced in a different film. If AQUAMAN succeeds, I'd say that only strengthens the approach. WB certainly seems to think this is the case based on audience response; look at what they're doing with Harley Quinn's character, and what seems to be happening with BATGIRL.

 

[Longshot777]

Eh, I think the WB game plan was fine. The strategy wasn't the problem. The problem was all the behind the scenes nonsense that went on with these films.

Exactly!!

Minus the Hulk movie, which most people are taking out off their Marvel list,

Marvel pretty much started with the Ironman, Thor and Cap before Avengers movie.

JL did the same thing with their own Trinity before JL.

MOS, BVS, and WW are all on par with IM, Thor and CA.

It’s JL that failed vs Avengers.

All blamed goes to WB who listened to outside distractions.

WB heard that people don’t like Superman fighting Batman
So WB made a 2nd trailer where .....look people they are not really fighting they will join forces at the end vs Doomsday and look WW is also in it....so please go watch our movie!!!

Then WB heard that people were pissed at getting spoiled in the trailer of BVS so WB made a trailer not showing Superman at all in a JL movie.

If Snyder wasn’t interfered with, JL would probably end up still not better than Avengers but maybe on par with it and not having those jokes for life CGI of Henry Cavill.

How in the hell Kevin T. made JL 25 minutes less than Avengers!!!??

Beginning of the end when that was announced.

 

[idiot09]

Would solo movies have changed that? It's impossible to say.

Its not. If they went with solo movies first, and those didnt work out, then there would be that negative stigma forwarded to the crossover event as well, like it did with JL. So its obvious, the problem is not "cross-overs/solos" first...its building an audience.

Which is why WB should have gone full steam ahead. Wonder Woman worked after BvS because it was marketed well, had a unique selling point, and got good reviews and WOM. Suicide Squad worked after BvS, because it was marketed brilliantly, had a USP, and got good WOM. JL didnt work, because it wasnt marketed well, it didnt have a USP(basically sold as Avengers lite), and got ****** reviews and mediocre WOM. It had NOTHING going for it. That's why it bombed. Once again Aquaman will work if it has good marketing, it has a usp(film inside water), and gets good reviews and wom(DESPITE the fact he was in Justice League). MCU has advantage of it being a serialized story, and their own tone and cinematic language thats consistent across all the films. Thats why it built a brand, and one film builds off another.

DCEU on the other hand, made it so that each film was very unique and different. And hence it had no signature style and brand, and could never have a built in audience apart from the diehards. That's why each film has to work on its own(even JL), and that includes all aspects including marketing, reviews, wom etc. Avengers but with dc characters is stale. 300 but with DC characters sounds interesting. JL just didnt work(as a film itself), and DC went about their branding and PR in a very misguided way. DC had a structure such that even if one film bombed, the others can succeed because each movie was unique. They failed to capitalize on that.

 

[Flint Marko]

Eh, I think the WB game plan was fine. The strategy wasn't the problem. The problem was all the behind the scenes nonsense that went on with these films.

WB's game plan was to get that Avengers money ASAP, so they made the second movie in their universe a giant crossover event film and handed it to a director who has made a career out of making divisive films. That's not a great plan.

BATMAN V SUPERMAN was never intended to be WB's "AVENGERS". This is a common comparison that just makes no sense to me.

DC's mega-budget (re: more expensive than the Avengers) blockbuster crossover event featuring their most iconic characters was 100% intended to be their Avengers. Just because they had another crossover film planned down the line doesn't negate that.

 

[Legendver2]

It took Marvel 4 years to get to Avengers, and they only had solos for 4 characters if you count Hulk to get there. So no, you don't absolutely need a solo for every member. Let's be honest, outside the Trinity, the fanbase for the other half of the League isn't all there. Only one close to the level of recognition of Trinity is the Flash, due to the CW series.

As shown with both Black Panther and Spidey and WW, you CAN have solos AFTER you debut in a team film, and it works perfectly fine. Marvel's done it both ways, solos before and after team debut, so people need to stop saying there's only *one* way to do it right. The only thing I would probably change from the original strategy was a Batman film before or after BvS to set up all 3 solos of the Trinity before JL. WB didn't really need Suicide Squad, since that didn't contribute anything to their phase one endgame of JL. That slot could've been used for another solo. SS was just a quick cash grab to ride the wave of GOTG's success.

 

[Da-Scribe]

WB's game plan was to get that Avengers money ASAP, so they made the second movie in their universe a giant crossover event film and handed it to a director who has made a career out of making divisive films. That's not a great plan.

Eh, it was a film featuring a bunch of characters everyone already knows. And I think the film would've been fine with a few minor tweaks. But that's not what happened. It got gutted and slapped into theaters.

So I stand by my point. The way they planned the universe was fine. Execution was flawed.

 

[heatvision38]

How in the hell Kevin T. made JL 25 minutes less than Avengers!!!??

Beginning of the end when that was announced.

Yup.

 

[Legendver2]

How in the hell Kevin T. made JL 25 minutes less than Avengers!!!??

Beginning of the end when that was announced.

Cuz Kevin T dgaf about anything except his bonus -_-

 

[Micromind]

Cuz Kevin T dgaf about anything except his bonus -_-

His decision to reduce the runtime did more damage than Whedon+Elfman combined.

 

[MbJ]

 

[Tra-El]

Cavill looking swoll and Superman hair is on point. Can't wait for his Shazam role.

I've been meaning to get that comic with Superman and the Eagle. Henry looks like he jumped right off of that cover. Amazing.

 

[Black Narcissus]

This was before Cavill got muscle.

 

[Tra-El]

Fantastic! Love stuff like this. More things of this nature need to be shared to the fans. Glad Zack continues to interact and give fans the look-sees.

Cavill looks Reeve-esq there with his leaner body type at the time.