Justice League Henry Cavill IS Clark Kent/Superman - - - - - - - Part 16

[kguillou]

And part of that is because Aquaman, Cyborg and Flash have little to no cache with the GA. The Flash MAYBE has a little bit because of the popular tv show but such a small portion of the movie going audience probably even pays attention to that show. The movie had to rely on "Batman and Wonder Woman team up movie" to market it and hope people were frothing at the mouth to see Diana again.

Also, in retrospect, I am thinking that what maybe wouldve helped boost the marketing was end the second or third trailer on a stinger showing clips from the Superman vs JL scene. Show Clark alive and well somehow wandering around Heroes Park and end on him about to attack the league. Yes, undoubtedly that wouldve pissed some fans off but it wouldve added intrigue to the film. People would wanna know why is he evil and wanna see how his fight with the League pans out.

 

[Micromind]

People would have showed up just to see Batman and WW if the trailers looked exciting and had the movie got a good fresh tomato. In absence of those two, it did as well as it could given nothing was going in its favor, save for some OK performances by cast members and their chemistry.

 

[misslane38]

I walked out embarrassed.

Same.

The general audience had little to no knowledge of all the reshoot/behind the scenes drama, I seriously doubt that was the major reason people decided not to see the film

I'm not so sure of that. My uncle died recently, and at a family get together afterward, I overheard one of my second-cousins talking about JL, specifically the reshoots; it was unexpected because he's a busy single father. I also think that even if you weren't aware of it, it was still a factor, since news of it eclipsed news of other aspects of the film and affected the hype and what was marketed. In other words, it's not so much about the means but the end. People could've not known about the reshoots, but if the reshoot drama was the means that resulted in less buzz before the movie, then the reshoots were a factor. Then, once the movie was out, and anyone could read reviews or see for themselves the atrocious effects of the reshoots, it would have an even more specific and significant impact on word of mouth.

JL failed because it was a bad movie, but a big part of that is because of the audience who bailed on the franchise with MOS followed by BvS

I think the biggest issue with these movies was just that they weren't family friendly enough. JL was, but that's kind of all it was. A happy medium would probably bring in the bigger bucks.

To me the problem was the movie is bad, a great film could have overcome poor marketing or a divisive preceding film.
If JL was brilliant, got good reviews and good word of mouth it would have overridden marketing/BVS issues.

Yes better marketing and a better reception for BVS would have improved the box office, but if JL was well liked it could have managed without those boosts.

I agree.

 

[Jekecy]

There's no hook. There's no gimmick.
Has none of the inherent must-see appeal of the past 4 movies.

Can’t help but feel this is revisionist history because of JL’s underwhelming performance. This sentiment was most assuredly not on forums such as ours. Every piece of marketing material, from the promos to posters to interviews, was met with great response from the fans (those who stuck around anyway).

General audiences and the rest of the fanboy world, yeah. It’s clearly to anyone without blinders the DCEU reputation was in the dumps and nothing short of a perfect movie would’ve overcame those expectations.

For the DCEU hopefuls? Just a little surprised in retrospect we’re now treating the marketing as the culprit.

 

[Tra-El]

And yet, I dont know, JL is a very strange beast because my audience loved the movie and from what Ive heard from other people's viewing experiences it seems like, in general, the people who DID go see it enjoyed the movie. If nothing else, the movie was very family friendly and the GA has no knoeledge about Whedon vs Snyder and moustachegate etc. But I suppose the movie wasnt strong enough for those people to go tell their friends and family that film is a must see, thats the problem. That and the fact that it couldnt pull in a large enough audience to begin with to get a large opening weekend.

My audience's were small, but the reception to the film felt like they were atleast enjoying themselves. The part where Superman turns his head and locks eyes with Flash in the speed-force got great reactions from both my audience's. Such a great part all around. The theater was feeling it at that point.

 

[Flint Marko]

Can’t help but feel this is revisionist history because of JL’s underwhelming performance. This sentiment was most assuredly not on forums such as ours. Every piece of marketing material, from the promos to posters to interviews, was met with great response from the fans (those who stuck around anyway).

General audiences and the rest of the fanboy world, yeah. It’s clearly to anyone without blinders the DCEU reputation was in the dumps and nothing short of a perfect movie would’ve overcame those expectations.

For the DCEU hopefuls? Just a little surprised in retrospect we’re now treating the marketing as the culprit.

A lot of folks here were excited by the marketing, and now the marketing is being blamed for turning people away.

 

[Tra-El]

Can’t help but feel this is revisionist history because of JL’s underwhelming performance. This sentiment was most assuredly not on forums such as ours. Every piece of marketing material, from the promos to posters to interviews, was met with great response from the fans (those who stuck around anyway).

General audiences and the rest of the fanboy world, yeah. It’s clearly to anyone without blinders the DCEU reputation was in the dumps and nothing short of a perfect movie would’ve overcame those expectations.

For the DCEU hopefuls? Just a little surprised in retrospect we’re now treating the marketing as the culprit.

It was basically what could go wrong; went wrong in JL's failure. The marketing was just a piece of that pie. In essence, the general audience will give any film a chance if there is hype surrounding it, even if it's just a little. JL failed to do that. Even the loyal fans who actually liked BvS and wanted to see the vision play out didn't go back (like me who only went twice when I really wanted to go 4-5 times) because when we did see the film, it was such a huge departure all around that it basically alienated everyone instead of finding the happy medium that made sense to hand the baton off in respects to the character's and actors involved. The movie and studio failed to even do that.

 

[idiot09]

Can’t help but feel this is revisionist history because of JL’s underwhelming performance. This sentiment was most assuredly not on forums such as ours. Every piece of marketing material, from the promos to posters to interviews, was met with great response from the fans (those who stuck around anyway).

General audiences and the rest of the fanboy world, yeah. It’s clearly to anyone without blinders the DCEU reputation was in the dumps and nothing short of a perfect movie would’ve overcame those expectations.

For the DCEU hopefuls? Just a little surprised in retrospect we’re now treating the marketing as the culprit.

I have no problem in admitting the point is made in retrospect. When the promo material came out, being a huge fan, I lapped it all up. There's that thrill of new stuff, that often clouds objective judgement. It was exciting to me as a fan, but not necessarily to the GA, who basically saw it as Avengers lite. I didnt realise that then. It needed something to seperate it, some kinda novelty. I remember making a thread to that effect almost a year back in DC reddit, about "what makes JL unique?". Most answers were "its avengers but with dc characters". It needed to be something different, atleast from a marketing pov. The prev 4 movies all sold something unique, as will Aquaman i'm sure.

 

[misslane38]

Can’t help but feel this is revisionist history because of JL’s underwhelming performance. This sentiment was most assuredly not on forums such as ours. Every piece of marketing material, from the promos to posters to interviews, was met with great response from the fans (those who stuck around anyway).

General audiences and the rest of the fanboy world, yeah. It’s clearly to anyone without blinders the DCEU reputation was in the dumps and nothing short of a perfect movie would’ve overcame those expectations.

For the DCEU hopefuls? Just a little surprised in retrospect we’re now treating the marketing as the culprit.

Well, part of it is also that when there's time still left to do more marketing, there is this expectation or hope that it will get better eventually. In other words, some might have been excited or fine with things in the early stages because they assumed things were being held off until later or that reshoots were making it so some things were being hidden, especially things related to Superman. However, as things got closer to release, I know I got more concerned. I especially didn't like how few of the cast did talk show appearances.

 

[heatvision38]

If JL was as well liked as Wonder Woman it too would have had good legs and gone on to be a success, but the poor quality of the product prevented this.

If JL was a great film, it could have overcome doubts created by BVS, bounced back from a poor opening thanks to word of mouth. But it wasn't a good film, and that's why it failed.

After X3 and Wolverine Origins, I was apathetic at best about the X-Men franchise. I remember hearing rumors about Fox coming up with new X-Men "Origins" type films, with Magneto Origins possibly being the next film. I remember rolling my eyes. Then it came out that they were doing X-Men: First Class. I still did not care. Then I saw the trailer, and it piqued my interest. When it came time to see the movie, I loved it, and I was totally back on board and look what we have now, a whole X-Men universe that seemed moribund following Wolverine Origins.

Quality can change things.

 

[heatvision38]

I walked out embarrassed.

I got advance screening tickets (thanks to the heads up from Narcissus). I took my father. There was enough humor to equate good feelings with the movie, plus seeing Clark vs the JL, seeing the JLers together, and Superman finally using freeze breathe, etc, that I had at least a reasonably good time during the movie, even though I also knew I was disappointed. I think I just went in with minimal expectations. My father enjoyed it, but he has low expectations when it comes to movies. As long as it's fun, he doesn't look for much more than that. On the way out, the company reps who provided the free tickets asked my opinion and I am ashamed to admit I said it was really good (I was caught off guard, and I was with my Dad who liked it, so it was a reflex response). But of course as the day went on and into the next few days, my frustration with the movie grew as I thought about how screwed up this movie was. I went into a grieving period. I still have yet to rewatch BvS.

 

[heatvision38]

WB needs to find that happy medium with these movies

WW seemed to do a good job with that, I just hope they continue to bring in the right talent for these characters and give that talent breathing room, as Patty Jenkins had.

Right. Compare WW to Captain America: First Avenger. Both dealt with world wars, but one dealt with it on a more comic booky level (nothing wrong with that) and instead of actual nazis, we get Hydra and the Red Skull. Instead of real battle scenes, we get a montage (the most frustrating part of the movie for me). With WW, it had a balance of humor (at the right times for the most part, not much was forced, character specific humor, earned), heart, we got to see actual soldiers and victims on both sides of the war. We got to see the horror of war (still on a comic book level). We see Diana and gang save a village only to still see the village die later on. We see Diana execute someone... and it was the wrong person. The movie isn't perfect, but it allowed itself to be taken more seriously while still being playful enough.

That's what I want to see from the DCEU movies going forward at the very least. Marvel has their tone. I don't want WB to feel the need to copy that. It may mean less dollars in the end on a movie-by-movie basis as the DC movies might not be as family friendly. But I hope WW is at least a good litmus test for what the DC movies can be.

 

[Jekecy]

After X3 and Wolverine Origins, I was apathetic at best about the X-Men franchise. I remember hearing rumors about Fox coming up with new X-Men "Origins" type films, with Magneto Origins possibly being the next film. I remember rolling my eyes. Then it came out that they were doing X-Men: First Class. I still did not care. Then I saw the trailer, and it piqued my interest. When it came time to see the movie, I loved it, and I was totally back on board and look what we have now, a whole X-Men universe that seemed moribund following Wolverine Origins.

Quality can change things.

The hurdle WB has to go through is whether audiences will have any energy or care left to spare. The films moving forward could very well be a vast improvement, akin to X3>FC>DoFP.

However a big distinguishing factor between the DCEU and X-Men franchise is the latter started off with a great reputation and fan intrigue. Many still consider X2 to be one of the best CBMs to this day. DCEU only has WW to its slate that's been a unanimous hit with audiences. People would be more willing to come back if they know there's a history of quality. Unfortunately with the DCEU, as a brand, it doesn't have that to fall back on.

 

[2kt09]

Can’t help but feel this is revisionist history because of JL’s underwhelming performance. This sentiment was most assuredly not on forums such as ours. Every piece of marketing material, from the promos to posters to interviews, was met with great response from the fans (those who stuck around anyway).

General audiences and the rest of the fanboy world, yeah. It’s clearly to anyone without blinders the DCEU reputation was in the dumps and nothing short of a perfect movie would’ve overcame those expectations.

For the DCEU hopefuls? Just a little surprised in retrospect we’re now treating the marketing as the culprit.

It was exciting to me as a fan, but not necessarily to the GA, who basically saw it as Avengers lite. I didn't realize that then. It needed something to separate it, some kinda novelty...It needed to be something different, at least from a marketing pov. The prev 4 movies all sold something unique, as will Aquaman i'm sure.

I said these before:

• Doing another adaptation of Johns' New 52 origin story.
• The fandom/fanboy sides will be flipped.

Call it confirmation bias.

 

[The Guard]

Can’t help but feel this is revisionist history because of JL’s underwhelming performance. This sentiment was most assuredly not on forums such as ours. Every piece of marketing material, from the promos to posters to interviews, was met with great response from the fans (those who stuck around anyway).

General audiences and the rest of the fanboy world, yeah. It’s clearly to anyone without blinders the DCEU reputation was in the dumps and nothing short of a perfect movie would’ve overcame those expectations.

For the DCEU hopefuls? Just a little surprised in retrospect we’re now treating the marketing as the culprit.

This. The marketing, save for the absence of Superman, was widely praised, and WB didn’t exactly mail it in in terms of trailers, posters and the like.

 

[Greens]

I got advance screening tickets (thanks to the heads up from Narcissus). I took my father. There was enough humor to equate good feelings with the movie, plus seeing Clark vs the JL, seeing the JLers together, and Superman finally using freeze breathe, etc, that I had at least a reasonably good time during the movie, even though I also knew I was disappointed. I think I just went in with minimal expectations. My father enjoyed it, but he has low expectations when it comes to movies. As long as it's fun, he doesn't look for much more than that. On the way out, the company reps who provided the free tickets asked my opinion and I am ashamed to admit I said it was really good (I was caught off guard, and I was with my Dad who liked it, so it was a reflex response). But of course as the day went on and into the next few days, my frustration with the movie grew as I thought about how screwed up this movie was. I went into a grieving period. I still have yet to rewatch BvS.

If it's of any consolation, I walked out of BvS pretty embarrassed as well, but after seeing the Ultimate Cut I grew to like the film.

 

[Tra-El]

This. The marketing, save for the absence of Superman, was widely praised, and WB didn’t exactly mail it in in terms of trailers, posters and the like.

I was majorly duped and feel like an idiot, still. I really thought WB was onto something and had a good payoff film when it came to the marketing. You talk about the trailers being praised and some videos leading up to the release. The last trailer helped that praise with the opening of Lois and Clark and Alfred talking to the mysterious figure, which garnered MUCH conversation after the fact. But guess what? None of what caused good conversation of interest was even in the film because we were shown Snyder's stuff, which basically got cut. The stuff we were shown wasn't the same movie and the idiots behind the scenes decided to use things in the campaign anyway because they didn't have one since they reshot the entire story. JL really was all for nothing in the end.

 

[Nemeres]

How does one exain Wonder Woman's phenomenal success then since that spun directly out of a movie that supposey spurned the GA so badly? By that logic they wouldnt want any part of anything coming out of BvS.

JL could've been a hit with a kick ass marketing campaign, they didnt have one, plain and simple. I dont think a lot of people even knew the movie was coming out.

WW had her own brand of appeal. The first Wonder Woman film. The unique origin story, the romance front and center, the 1st female superhero lead in forever, etc. JL was yet another superhero team-up, and one very reliant on how eager folks were for more of BVS's Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. If there's one thing to be learned from Marvel is that characters get people to come back. People enjoy Tony. They enjoy Groot, and Star Lord, and Cap, and Deadpool. Or Buzz, and Woody, and Jack-Jack, and Gandalf, just in general. You get that soft wave of recognition whenever they pop up. The marketing for those is usually designed as a tease for "more of the good stuff" and the lil character traits that worked the 1st time around. JL's marketing was largely built around characters that audiences were unfamiliar with, and the ones they did recognize could only "pop" so much. More than it being about whether BVS turned people off, I think there just wasn't a lot of fondness there for the brand quite yet.

 

[Micromind]

This. The marketing, save for the absence of Superman, was widely praised, and WB didn’t exactly mail it in in terms of trailers, posters and the like.

Marketing was praised by those 'fans' who hated the Doomsday reveal in BvS trailers for successfully 'hiding' Superman. This 'praise' from a section of fans does not mean that the marketing was good or even effective to bring in general audience.

In my opinion, the marketing was very poor, I said as much when they were marketing the movie few weeks before it's release. Also, I have seen better marketing in India for Batman Begins and Superman Returns, it was nonexistent for JL.

 

[misslane38]

This. The marketing, save for the absence of Superman, was widely praised, and WB didn’t exactly mail it in in terms of trailers, posters and the like.

I disagree. I recall trailers being criticized for being ugly and not showing enough new footage. Song choices were picked apart and there were complaints about Aquaman's attitude (too much of a "bro" or something like that). Posters aren't really the kind of thing that sells a movie to a wider audience. I recall when the previous movies came out, there were specials on the CW or cute commercials, like the Supergirl one with Kara in Diana's boots. There was little of that and very few talk show appearances.

 

[Tra-El]

I disagree. I recall trailers being criticized for being ugly and not showing enough new footage. Song choices were picked apart and there were complaints about Aquaman's attitude (too much of a "bro" or something like that). Posters aren't really the kind of thing that sells a movie to a wider audience. I recall when the previous movies came out, there were specials on the CW or cute commercials, like the Supergirl one with Kara in Diana's boots. There was little of that and very few talk show appearances.

Yeah I remember that. The JL trailers, for the majority of the time, were called ugly where the CGI was called trash and cluttered. Then the entire color pallet; red/orange sky came into play where it was obvious the film was being shredded and ripped apart, even visually.

 

[flickchick85]

Well the movie was ugly, so the trailers were ugly. Not much the marketing department can do about that.

 

[misslane38]

Well the movie was ugly, so the trailers were ugly. Not much the marketing department can do about that.

No one is denying that. The discussion is about whether the marketing was good and effective. To be both, marketing needs to be distributed well, but the content or product being marketed also has to look appealing. It's not an issue of bait and switch, but an issue of whether or not the original product negatively affected the marketing.

A lot of the ugliness was down to reshoots. The CGI team didn't have the time and resources to do a good job, the original cinematographer was gone, and some of the more natural scenery was ditched for more green screen. Basically, stitching together the two versions of the film made it difficult to make it as visually appealing as it could have been. The marketing was doomed to be affected by that by not only having little to share with people, sharing what was the film's poor footage, and then misleading people with stuff that ultimately didn't end up in the movie on the one hand, like cut scenes, and stuff that did, like Superman, on the other hand.

So, you're right, the marketing team couldn't do much about it. That only underscores how the marketing was limited in how effective it could have been.

 

[flickchick85]

No disagreement there. But that's hardly what's to blame for the film's failure. That's just another symptom, not the disease.

 

[misslane38]

No disagreement there. But that's hardly what's to blame for the film's failure. That's just another symptom, not the disease.

Again, no one was making that argument. We were just discussing whether the marketing was a hindrance, a help, or neutral in its impact.