The Dark Knight Rises How does TDKR make you feel? How do you feel about TDKR? Hate it?

[shauner111]

Miranda Tate: You have a practiced apathy, Mr. Wayne. But a man who doesn't care about the world doesn't spend half his fortune on a plan to save it. And isn't so wounded when it fails that he goes into hiding. Have a good evening, Mr. Wayne.

Yeah, Bruce became a recluse because of Rachel dying, guys.

LOL yeahhh, 5 years after Rachel dies, he becomes a recluse, but it's because of her...

 

[BatLobster]

It's really simple. Is Bruce sad about Rachel being dead? Obviously. Is that the reason he retired? No! If you remove the Dent Act from the equation, Bruce would've absolutely kept on as Batman. By his own proclamation, he's "whatever Gotham needs" him to be. It just turns out that this also means he won't be whatever Gotham doesn't need him to be. Hence early retirement once mob corruption is eradicated.

The Dent Act is the reason he hangs up the cape. Rachel's death is the reason he isn't able to move forward with his life after he mothballs the energy project. Bruce Wayne is incapable of letting go of things. He couldn't let go of the notion that Rachel was his one ticket for a normal life after Batman. Which was an emotionally stunted notion in the first place, but Bruce is damaged goods.

Really, it just makes The Joker's victory that much more profound when you realize that he still owns years of Bruce's life despite the fact that they only encountered each other once.

 

[JackWhite]

It's really simple. Is Bruce sad about Rachel being dead? Obviously. Is that the reason he retired? No! If you remove the Dent Act from the equation, Bruce would've absolutely kept on as Batman. By his own proclamation, he's "whatever Gotham needs" him to be. It just turns out that this also means he won't be whatever Gotham doesn't need him to be. Hence early retirement once mob corruption is eradicated.

The Dent Act is the reason he hangs up the cape. Rachel's death is the reason he isn't able to move forward with his life after he mothballs the energy project. Bruce Wayne is incapable of letting go of things. He couldn't let go of the notion that Rachel was his one ticket for a normal life after Batman. Which was an emotionally stunted notion in the first place, but Bruce is damaged goods.

Really, it just makes The Joker's victory that much more profound when you realize that he still owns years of Bruce's life despite the fact that they only encountered each other once.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Miranda Tate: You have a practiced apathy, Mr. Wayne. But a man who doesn't care about the world doesn't spend half his fortune on a plan to save it. And isn't so wounded when it fails that he goes into hiding. Have a good evening, Mr. Wayne.

Yeah, Bruce became a recluse because of Rachel dying, guys.

The whole point of that scene is the double meaning of Talia's words. She's not just talking about the energy experiment, she's talking about Bruce spending half his fortune to become Batman, and failing to save Gotham. That's why its one of the best dialogue moments in the film.

The Dent act isn't some great fix, it is built on a lie and it possibly wrongfully imprisons people. Bruce and Gordon both feel some measure of unhappiness or guilt over this. Gordon's depression over it led to his wife leaving him. Bruce's depression over it leads to him sulking.

Gotham's soul was never saved, the symptoms were simply smoothed over by the Dent act. The problem is that instead of trying to save the soul of Gotham, Bruce results to being a recluse. Why? Because he's unable to move on or do much of anything because of Rachel's death, which is precisely why Alfred brings it up when trying to spur Bruce to action (granted, not the action of becoming Batman, but action AS BRUCE WAYNE). The problem is (for me) that Rachel's death makes Bruce's character strangely inert rather than driving his resolve to fix his city, as tragedy tends to do for Bruce.

 

[Shikamaru]

Everytime I read this thread title, I feel like I'm in a psychology session . Must be the multiple uses of the word "feel" and the fact the question was repeated in the same title.

"Sweetie, how did TDKR make you feel? How did you feel about it? Are you hurt? Would you like some tea?"

 

[The Joker]

The whole point of that scene is the double meaning of Talia's words. She's not just talking about the energy experiment, she's talking about Bruce spending half his fortune to become Batman, and failing to save Gotham. That's why its one of the best dialogue moments in the film.

No, I'm pretty sure she's talking about the energy project he sunk his fortune into, which then failed to take off because it was too risky to expose to the world.

Bruce didn't become a recluse after Dent died. So her speech would make no sense if she was referring to that.

The Dent act isn't some great fix, it is built on a lie and it possibly wrongfully imprisons people. Bruce and Gordon both feel some measure of unhappiness or guilt over this. Gordon's depression over it led to his wife leaving him. Bruce's depression over it leads to him sulking.

There's absolutely no implication that Gordon's wife left him because he was depressed about the cover up. All we're told is his wife left for Cleveland and took the kids with her. That's it. There could be a myriad of reasons for it. Most obvious one being her and her children being abducted and nearly killed by a scarred mad man, whom her husband is now eulogizing as a great man and hero to the city.

Gordon is the only one showing any conflict and guilt about the Dent cover up. That's why he came within an inch of confessing the truth to the city at the Harvey Dent Day event. Bruce never shows any signs that he's feeling guilty about it.

He even says "We won" to Gordon when he visits him in the hospital, and Gordon quickly points out their victory was based on a lie.

Gotham's soul was never saved, the symptoms were simply smoothed over by the Dent act. The problem is that instead of trying to save the soul of Gotham, Bruce results to being a recluse. Why? Because he's unable to move on or do much of anything because of Rachel's death, which is precisely why Alfred brings it up when trying to spur Bruce to action (granted, not the action of becoming Batman, but action AS BRUCE WAYNE). The problem is (for me) that Rachel's death makes Bruce's character strangely inert rather than driving his resolve to fix his city, as tragedy tends to do for Bruce.

Bruce did move on and try and help the city after TDK. He wasn't needed as Batman any more thanks to the Dent Act so he used his resources as Bruce Wayne by pouring his fortune into the clean energy project to help the world. That fell through. So he just became a recluse.

The only repercussion of Rachel's death is that he never tried to find happiness with someone because he thought his one chance at true love died with Rachel.

Simple as that. There's no grey areas on this issue. The movie makes it all very clear.

 

[ThePhantasm]

No, I'm pretty sure she's talking about the energy project he sunk his fortune into, which then failed to take off because it was too risky to expose to the world.

The last part is the important bit. "Too risky to expose to the world." The energy project didn't fail in and of itself, Bruce put an end to it because he didn't trust other human beings. That's why its a parallel to the situation with Gotham. Gotham externally is safe but is internally rotting (hence Alfred says Bruce is just waiting for things to go bad again... same with Gordon, by the way). Both Bruce and Gordon know they didn't save Gotham. That's why they can't trust anyone. Gotham was never redeemed. Its ugliness was just covered over.

Its a major plot point in the film.

Gordon is the only one showing any conflict and guilt about the Dent cover up. That's why he came within an inch of confessing the truth to the city at the Harvey Dent Day event. Bruce never shows any signs that he's feeling guilty about it.

He even says "We won" to Gordon when he visits him in the hospital, and Gordon quickly points out their victory was based on a lie.

I'm not sure why Bruce says "we won" in that scene. Maybe he's trying to convince himself. It doesn't fit well with literally every other scene in the movie. Bruce doesn't behave elsewhere as if they've won. Again, Alfred says Bruce is just waiting for things to go bad again. Bruce knows deep down that they didn't "win," they only scored a superficial victory... the real battle, for Gotham's soul, is ongoing. But Bruce has given up on it. He's lost faith in it. That's why he quit being Batman, and why he quit the energy project.

Bruce did move on and try and help the city after TDK. He wasn't needed as Batman any more thanks to the Dent Act so he used his resources as Bruce Wayne by pouring his fortune into the clean energy project to help the world. That fell through. So he just became a recluse.

It didn't "fall through." Bruce nipped the project in the bud because of his distrust of other people. He lost faith in people, the very thing Rachel's letter told him NOT to do. (Not that he ever got to read the letter).

 

[The Joker]

The last part is the important bit. "Too risky to expose to the world." The energy project didn't fail in and of itself, Bruce put an end to it because he didn't trust other human beings. That's why its a parallel to the situation with Gotham. Gotham externally is safe but is internally rotting (hence Alfred says Bruce is just waiting for things to go bad again... same with Gordon, by the way). Both Bruce and Gordon know they didn't save Gotham. That's why they can't trust anyone. Gotham was never redeemed. Its ugliness was just covered over.

Its a major plot point in the film.

I know Gotham was not redeemed because of the cover up. They spell that out in the movie clear as day. That has nothing to do with Talia's speech and her talking about Bruce going into hiding. Bruce did not go into hiding after the Dent cover up. That's where your theory falls apart. She is blatantly talking about the energy project. Bruce did not go into hiding because he was so hurt by any failure after TDK. He continued on for 5 years afterward trying to help Gotham as Bruce Wayne. That's a fact.

I'm not sure why Bruce says "we won" in that scene. Maybe he's trying to convince himself. It doesn't fit well with literally every other scene in the movie. Bruce doesn't behave elsewhere as if they've won. Again, Alfred says Bruce is just waiting for things to go bad again. Bruce knows deep down that they didn't "win," they only scored a superficial victory... the real battle, for Gotham's soul, is ongoing. But Bruce has given up on it. He's lost faith in it. That's why he quit being Batman, and why he quit the energy project.

Bruce said "We won" because that's how he felt. That's why you don't see him show a smidge of guilt or conflict over the Dent cover up. Only Gordon.

Of course Bruce behaves as if they've won. He's just a broken man now because he thinks there's nothing else left in the world for him now. Gotham doesn't need him as Batman. He failed to help as Bruce Wayne. He has nobody to move on and make a life with. Him hoping for things to go bad again is him just wanting to have a purpose again.

Again all spelled out plain as day in the movie. Your analysis is wrong. This is not an opinionated issue. We're talking facts here. The movie does not support your ideas on what you think it means. It either doesn't support them or completely refutes them.

It didn't "fall through." Bruce nipped the project in the bud because of his distrust of other people. He lost faith in people, the very thing Rachel's letter told him NOT to do. (Not that he ever got to read the letter).

Yes it did fall through. Because he felt the reactor was too dangerous for the world he had to shut it down, hence why it fell through. Obviously that was because as you said he didn't trust that the world could handle it. Even Talia said to him "If you want to save the world you have to start trusting it".

Nobody's refuting his reasons why it fell through. Just that it did.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I'm a bit baffled that you are missing the thematic current here across these scenes.

John Blake: "I don't know why you took the fall for Dent's murder, but I'm still a believer in the Batman. Even if you're not."​

Bruce no longer believes in the Batman. Because the Batman failed to save Gotham's soul.

Bruce Wayne: The Batman wasn't needed anymore. We won.

Commissioner Gordon: Based on a lie. And now this evil rising from where we tried to bury it. The Batman has to come back.

Bruce Wayne: What if he doesn't exist anymore?​

Again, Bruce no longer believes in the Batman. He's trying to convince himself that its because Batman is no longer needed, but Gordon shoots that theory out from under him, so Bruce is left with nothing but his lost hope: "What if he doesn't exist anymore?" Gordon and Blake both believe in the Batman, Bruce doesn't. But their belief spurs him to action.

Then, right after this:

Miranda: You have to invest to restore balance to the world. Take our clean-energy project.​

The language of restoring balance is an intentional callback to Ra's similar line in Begins. The scriptwriters are making an intentional parallel between the crusade for justice and the clean-energy project. You may not think that Miranda as a character is making that intentional parallel, but the movie certainly is thematically.

Bruce Wayne: Sometimes the investment doesn't pay off. I'm Sorry.

Miranda: You have a practiced apathy, Mr. Wayne. But a man who doesn't care about the world doesn't spend half his fortune on a plan to save it. And isn't so wounded when it fails that he goes into hiding. Have a good evening, Mr. Wayne.​

Bruce is trying to be apathetic about his identity as Batman. "We won." Practiced apathy. But he knows deep down that they didn't win. Deep down he's wounded by the failure to save Gotham's soul. Its not enough to restore order when there's no redemption. This is why Catwoman's character is so important to Bruce's arc... she gives him someone to redeem, which also spurs him back into action.

You've got to keep in mind with this dialogue that Miranda wants Bruce to take up the mantle of the bat again. Its perfect for her plan of revenge to have Bane obliterate Bruce Wayne AS Batman, not just some cripple Wayne but Wayne in the garb of his crusade. Its about breaking the symbol just as much as about breaking the man.

Bruce Wayne: I retired.

Fox: Well, let me show you some stuff, anyway. Just for old times sake.​

Again, Bruce no longer "believes" in the Batman, but Lucius Fox does. Another nudge back into action.

Bruce Wayne: If this man is everything that you say he is, then this city needs me.

Alfred: The city needs Bruce Wayne. Your resources, your knowledge. It doesn't need your body, or your life. That time has passed.

Bruce Wayne: You're afraid that if I go back out there, I'll fail.

Alfred: No. I'm afraid that you want to.
​

Again, Bruce is taking up the mantle, but he hasn't taken back Batman's mission to redeem Gotham. He's going out to address a threat. Alfred believes Bruce can do more good as Bruce Wayne. He can address the problems in Gotham's soul. But Bruce doesn't believe that is possible, just like he still doesn't believe in the energy project. All he believes is possible is addressing the symptoms, not the disease.

Its through Blake that Bruce reclaims the notion of Batman "as a symbol." At last Bruce regains his belief in the Batman fully when "the dark knight rises" out of the pit. He paints the fiery symbol on the bridge as a sign of hope for Gotham. That's where this arc leads. That's the whole point. Its not just a physical story, its a spiritual one.

 

[BatLobster]

I have to say, I always took that double-meaning from Talia's line too. Honestly I think ThePhantasm is offering a sound reading of the subtext here.

There's "the war" and then there's the spiritual battle- which is explicitly referenced by The Joker in TDK. Batman lost that spiritual battle in TDK, as represented by Dent's fall, and this has repercussions on Bruce's character in TDKR. So I totally see where ThePhantasm is coming from when he says that Bruce himself has stopped believing in The Batman as a symbol of good/inspiration at the start of TDKR.

 

[The Joker]

No I'm sorry but ThePhantasm is not offering a sound meaning. He's making up his own double meaning. No offense, ThePhantasm. Bruce did not stop believing in the Batman. Batman was what ever Gotham needed him to be. That was the lesson of TDK. Batman can be the hated outcast, he can endure that. That's why he took the blame for Dent's crimes. To save the soul of the city and not let the Joker win. Because of this The Batman was just not needed any more. There's no more crime for him to fight. Even Gordon, the Commissioner of Police, was going to be getting early retirement from the Mayor over it. That's a fact, or do any of you think Bruce signed up as Batman to fight petty crime in this trilogy? What would he have been doing during this peace time? That's why Bruce was hoping for things to go bad again so he would have a purpose again.

What Talia is talking about with her speech is Bruce going into hiding for the last 3 years after the failed energy project and pretending he doesn't care anymore because he thinks he can't help the world any more. He can. Even Alfred says that to him. "The city needs Bruce Wayne. Your resources. Your knowledge". But not as Batman, as Bruce Wayne. That's why Alfred walks out on him because he is going back to being Batman again. Talia's speech makes no sense in the context of referring to Batman. That's why ThePhantasm's theory makes no sense. The events of the movies do not support it. Bruce didn't go into hiding after TDK because he felt he failed. He didn't go into hiding at all. His work as Batman was done; Joker was captured, and organized crime went down thanks to the Dent Act. The city went into peace time. So then he used his Bruce Wayne resources to try and do some good for the city in a different way.

As for the symbol of Batman, and Bruce not believing it could be a symbol of good, that had already been ruined for the last 8 years because he took the blame for Dent's crimes. Harvey Dent was the hero and symbol of hope. Not Batman. The city had it's hero symbol. Bruce was already a broken shell of a man with nothing meaningful to live for. There was nothing to destroy. All Bane did was defeat an already emotionally broken man, holding himself up on a leg brace, with a death wish. Circumstances on Batman being a symbol changed after Bruce was put in the pit because Bane exposed the truth about Harvey Dent and the whole cover up (and he only learned about that purely by chance). Suddenly Batman was looking like a good guy again who made a big noble sacrifice for their own good. Even Selina commends him on it. "You don't owe these people any more. You've given them everything". But before that, there was no need for Batman to be a symbol. The city already had one and was in peace time thanks to it. So why would Bruce be needing Batman to be one?

Talia is trying to shake Bruce out of his apathy because she wants him to trust her so he will show her where the reactor is. They have Dr. Pavel, faked his death, all they need now is to find out where Bruce has their doomsday weapon stashed. So she can be one of the people with access to turn it on. Who can override the emergency flooding mechanism if need be (which she does at the end and turns it on Lucius). And she got an added bonus of bedding Bruce and making him care about her, and then betraying him.

When Bane shows up, Bruce responds as Batman. Not because he doesn't believe in Batman, but because he does, he thinks the city needs him to stop a deadly threat. The problem is he doesn't fear death, he doesn't care about his own life, and that makes him careless and reckless. And he learns that folly in the pit from the blind old prisoner. Finding the fear again. Not the motivation to be Batman again or save Gotham. He had all that already. His goal pre and post pit escape didn't change. Defeat Bane and save the city. Just his methods of doing it did; building himself up physically without the need of a leg brace, and finding his fear again.

This is all spelled out in fifty foot high letters in the movie. ThePhantasm is taking basic straight forward dialogue and themes and putting his own spin on it.

 

[meanmc]

Bruce did move on and try and help the city after TDK. He wasn't needed as Batman any more thanks to the Dent Act so he used his resources as Bruce Wayne by pouring his fortune into the clean energy project to help the world. That fell through. So he just became a recluse.

THIS is the right answer!!

I was reading the little discussion, and you are right...

ThePhantasm wrote (as counterargument):
"Again, Alfred says Bruce is just waiting for things to go bad again."

That is an argument FOR "retiring because of the Dent Act"... (not against)
(and there are many points like this)

ThePhantasm you are misinterpreting the whole stuff... sorry!

But that is all i wanted to write to that discussion!
In general it is pretty easy to see, that the Dent Act is the reason... There are many indicators in the movie for this!!

You can see this already in Batman Dark Knight and will surly find your answers if you combine the logic from both movies!
Batman retired because "they won" (this is what he believes) and there was no need of him anymore. He did find the right person "who is better than him" (Dent) to "clean-up" Gotham... and so on...
Batman already "retired" (mental) in Dark Knight because of this

ThePhantasm, your arguments just indicates his mood, not being NOT Batman anymore!

to the movie
I like the movie and watched it twice in a row (at the first time)
So it makes me feel to watch it right again t:

 

[BatLobster]

I think it might be time for a re-watch soon. I see both of your guys' points, but I want to watch the movie again with this in mind. The Joker, obviously I agree with your timeline of events and reasons for retirement, becoming a recluse, etc. I have long maintained that the Dent Act is THE reason he retires and nothing has changed.

For me though, I always took the ending of TDK as Bruce kind of giving up on the original intention of the Batman symbol as a source of inspiration for Gotham. The best he was able to inspire was Dent, and he got corrupted. Batman is whatever Gotham needs him to be, but Bruce has put the idea of the "white knight" on a pedestal and thinks that is more important for Gotham, even if that means purporting a big lie. To me, this means that while he believes the symbol of Batman is malleable and can be whatever Gotham needs, it also means that the original intention of his mission has become largely compromised (and it was the moment The Joker step foot in Gotham). I think even if there was no Dent Act and Bruce kept going on as Batman, he would've inevitably gotten further and further "lost in the monster" (which a lot of people expected) and he would've still resulted in some sort of darker psychological state that is far removed from the idealism he had on the plane ride back to Gotham with Alfred in Begins.

So I think no matter how you slice it, The Joker really won the spiritual war in TDK. Of course Bruce still believes in Gotham, wants to help Gotham, tries to help as Bruce Wayne for 5 years, etc. Craves things to go bad again once he has no other way to help Gotham. But I think Bruce is pretty skeptical that Batman can ever be a positive force for Gotham again. He can still help do the things that the police can't, attacking the symptoms like Phantasm says, but Batman being some higher ideal for Gotham is a notion that's long gone in his mind.

The way he explains the idea behind Batman to Blake:

"The idea was to be a symbol...Batman could be...anybody. That was the point."

There's yearning in his voice there. The sound of a man whose grand plans haven't gone quite as he'd imagined. That whole notion of inspiring heroism goes right at the window when you're viewed as the madman who killed the precious DA.

I think Bruce is kind of resigned to his fate. A Batman with a semi-death wish is not the same Batman that once tried to inspire a city.

Hence, The Dark Knight Rises.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Yeah, sorry The Joker, but I'm not convinced.

TDK ended with the intentional destruction of the Batman symbol. He became an outcast rather than a hero. TDKR is all about Bruce believing in the symbol again and then that symbol rising... hence the coda with a new bat signal on the roof of MCU and Blake becoming Batman.

I don't see in your version of events how Bruce has much of an arc in the film. I think you are missing some of the thematic connections here by choosing to take each bit of dialogue absolutely literally rather than recognizing the callbacks and parallels to earlier parts of the trilogy.

But I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[BatLobster]

TDK ended with the intentional destruction of the Batman symbol.

Yup. Literally and figuratively.

In other news, Nolan just wrote a prequel comic for Interstellar. Now I kinda wish he or Jonah would've done one for TDKR to flesh out those 8 years a bit (or at least the first 5).

 

[The Joker]

Fair enough.

I never saw Batman losing faith in being Batman. That is not the message TDKR sends. Just losing his way because he feels he has no purpose any more. No more reason to be Batman because the city doesn't need him. Can't help the city as Bruce Wayne. No life to build with someone because he lost Rachel.

That's why it's called The Dark Knight Rises because he finds his purpose again as Batman, he finds someone to make a life with, and he becomes a symbol for Gotham again. The Dark Knight has risen back. That's his character arc.

Begins. Falls. Rises. I always thought they were three great one word labels for his character journey in the trilogy.

THIS is the right answer!!

I was reading the little discussion, and you are right...

ThePhantasm wrote (as counterargument):
"Again, Alfred says Bruce is just waiting for things to go bad again."

That is an argument FOR "retiring because of the Dent Act"... (not against)
(and there are many points like this)

ThePhantasm you are misinterpreting the whole stuff... sorry!

But that is all i wanted to write to that discussion!
In general it is pretty easy to see, that the Dent Act is the reason... There are many indicators in the movie for this!!

You can see this already in Batman Dark Knight and will surly find your answers if you combine the logic from both movies!
Batman retired because "they won" (this is what he believes) and there was no need of him anymore. He did find the right person "who is better than him" (Dent) to "clean-up" Gotham... and so on...
Batman already "retired" (mental) in Dark Knight because of this

ThePhantasm, your arguments just indicates his mood, not being NOT Batman anymore!

to the movie
I like the movie and watched it twice in a row (at the first time)
So it makes me feel to watch it right again t:

Thank you

 

[shauner111]

Yup. Literally and figuratively.

In other news, Nolan just wrote a prequel comic for Interstellar. Now I kinda wish he or Jonah would've done one for TDKR to flesh out those 8 years a bit (or at least the first 5).

Wait, whaaaaat?

 

[I Am The Knight]

I have to agree with Uncle Joker here, I don't see that double meaning in Tatelia's dialogue.

 

[BatLobster]

Wait, whaaaaat?

http://www.superherohype.com/news/3...stellar-debuts-with-art-by-sean-gordon-murphy

Short but sweet. It's part of the thing where he's acting as the guest editor of Wired.

 

[JackWhite]

Where is this prequel for Interstellar?

And great post Joker. I woke up and had a cup of coffee while reading that. t:

 

[JackWhite]

Thanks for the link. I wish it were a little longer, but that was pretty cool.

 

[AnneFan]

I never saw Batman losing faith in being Batman. That is not the message TDKR sends. Just losing his way because he feels he has no purpose any more. No more reason to be Batman because the city doesn't need him. Can't help the city as Bruce Wayne. No life to build with someone because he lost Rachel.

That's why it's called The Dark Knight Rises because he finds his purpose again as Batman, he finds someone to make a life with, and he becomes a symbol for Gotham again. The Dark Knight has risen back. That's his character arc.

Begins. Falls. Rises. I always thought they were three great one word labels for his character journey in the trilogy.

I agree. Well said. Batman, the concept, shouldered the burden of being a murderer to not let The Joker win. Dent became the hero, and peace reigned. Batman was not needed, plain and simple. The film states that soon they'll be hunting down overdue library books. That's how good things were, and why Bruce wanted things to go bad again. He does believe they won, but nonetheless, he feels hollow. Especially with Rachel taken from him. With Dent exposed, Batman goes from being hated and hunted to having a statue placed in full public view to be admired.

 

[Killer]

The fact that so many people think Bruce did it because of Rachel just comes to confirm my theory that Nolan´s movies require a lot of attention and people aren´t really used to paying this type of attention to movies, mainly because most of them don´t really require it. And this is also where most of the talk about plot holes comes from: Lack of attention. I´ve seen people making questions about the third one that are answered in the first. Nolan even commented recentely on this.

I also don´t think Nolan´s Batman does anything really contrary to the character, mainly because the character´s personality isn´t set in stone. Batman doesn´t exist. We´re not talking about a real person. We´re talking about a fictional character that changes over time and is subject to the writers creative perspective. This is the Nolanverse. The only thing the character needs to be faithful to is to the premisse of this particular story, and nothing else. This isn´t DKR´s Batman, or Year 100´s Batman, or Earth 2´s Batman. This is Nolan´s Batman.

 

[BatLobster]

I agree. Well said. Batman, the concept, shouldered the burden of being a murderer to not let The Joker win. Dent became the hero, and peace reigned. Batman was not needed, plain and simple. The film states that soon they'll be hunting down overdue library books. That's how good things were, and why Bruce wanted things to go bad again. He does believe they won, but nonetheless, he feels hollow. Especially with Rachel taken from him. With Dent exposed, Batman goes from being hated and hunted to having a statue placed in full public view to be admired.

I do agree with this for the most part, but I think hollow is a key word there. I think deep down Bruce has to realize that it's a hollow victory, as evidenced by the Ra's hallucination (essentially a projection of his subconscious).

 

[Just_Human]

Batman : Dark Victory would have been a good title