Transformers How much can you they change??

[CFlash]

Fascinating. It's not "Gobotron", though. It's "Cybertron". Telling me they could have subbed it out changes nothing about what has happened (Hint for those who lack reading comprehension: the planet appears to be called Cybertron). Sure, if we removed all the names, characters, mythology points and anything else resembling Transformers lore, the movie wouldn't resemble it anymore. Wow. What an amazing point to bring up for no particular reason.

And frankly, no, if it was suddenly "Gobotron", you DON'T still have what I described. Because there are still SPECIFIC CHARACTERS and SPECIFIC CHARACTERIZATIONS (as in, the semi truck who leads the merry band is called "Optimus Prime" and has specific characteristics that we recognize about Optimus Prime) in the film that lend itself more to say, "Transformers" than say, "Generic Giant Robots We Can Distance Ourselves From Intellectually In Case The Movie Fails So We Can Say See I Told You So And Whine About How The Real Transformers Is Much Cooler".

I don't recall dismissing anything. Only making statements about changes to the mythology. And only one of the things that you claim I "dismissed" was actually anywhere near the "heart" of "that" Transformers, and that is the battle for oil reserves (or energy resources, which is in the movie anyway), which we may well see in TRANSFORMERS 2.

Have you EVER watched Gobots? It's pretty much the same good guy/bad guy "personalities"... so there's goes your defense. In all kids cartoons they're pretty much canned. It's the SUBTEXT (the underlying plot) and IMAGERY (their alt-modes, sizes, and look and feel) which makes Transformers.

Pretty much EVERY SINGLE synopsis I have ever read about Transformers goes something like this: the Transformers engage in a war for control of Earth's bountiful natural resources.

But not Go-bots. What was their major plot? The search for The First Engineer.... some guy or thing that created them and infused machines with "life". SOUND FAMILIAR? Yes, it's this movie!!!

 

[big D Evil]

I think he was referring to Gobots. Where giant, shapechanging robots from the planet Gobotron who turn into vehicles with specific names, in some cases specific designs, and specific personalities, wage an interstellar war here on Earth against conquering legions of warlike robots.

Same concept, yet generally considered a garbage series by most people. Transformers is more than just the bare bones.

And that is what Bay doesnt get. There is more to transformers than just
"big F***ng robots".

Sing along:
Transformers -more than meets the eye
This movie -gobots realized
Michael bay and his cronies ruin cool stuff just to turn a buck off your childhood

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

I didnt have a problem with the Godzilla98 design. To me it was a little more believeable than the "thunderthighs" man in suit that they use. What made the movie suck for me was the story.

and again you are reading an old script

Well, I tend to prefer this American Godzilla design as opposed to GINO.

Does it not disturb you that Emmerich and Devlin strong armed Toho into accepting that stupid design for GINO?

 

[roach]

Does it not disturb you that Emmerich and Devlin strong armed Toho into accepting that stupid design for GINO?

I highly doubt that....everything I have seen on the subject suggests that Toho knew this movie was gonna bomb and was using it as a means to get their (real)Godzilla movies over here

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

I highly doubt that....everything I have seen on the subject suggests that Toho knew this movie was gonna bomb and was using it as a means to get their (real)Godzilla movies over here

You didn't read the essay did you?

 

[roach]

You didn't read the essay did you?

I DIDNT KNOW THIS SITE HAD REQUIRED READING???

 

[Boiiinng]

They might as well leave off the Prime in Optimus' name. Prime refers to Primus, which they have pretty much canceled out considering the use of the Allspark.

 

[CFlash]

I highly doubt that....everything I have seen on the subject suggests that Toho knew this movie was gonna bomb and was using it as a means to get their (real)Godzilla movies over here

You'd be wrong. TOHO is very protective of the Godzilla franchise. They tried very hard to keep not just the design but the character and meaning of Godzilla in the American version. It would be the first time that Godzilla got a BIG BUDGET treatment and they really really wanted that.

P.S. I like the Godzilla 98 design. I just hated that he didn't have nuclear breath (duh! it's Godzilla!!!) and ran away from and was hurt by the military (that is so not Godzilla).

 

[roach]

You'd be wrong. TOHO is very protective of the Godzilla franchise. They tried very hard to keep not just the design but the character and meaning of Godzilla in the American version. It would be the first time that Godzilla got a BIG BUDGET treatment and they really really wanted that.

P.S. I like the Godzilla 98 design. I just hated that he didn't have nuclear breath (duh! it's Godzilla!!!) and ran away from and was hurt by the military (that is so not Godzilla).

then why did the movie have none of that

 

[CFlash]

then why did the movie have none of that

Because ultimately the movie was made by Dean Devlin and Roland Emmerich. They didn't like Godzilla. They couldn't see past the silly man in a suit to the deeper meanings of the movies. Godzilla to them was "silly" (kinda sorta like Transformers). All they saw was $$$ franchise (sorta like Bay).

http://gojistomp.org/essays/gino98gb.htm
A very good comprehensive essay on G98.
Maybe you can see parallels with the Transformers Production. You don't have to look very hard. I especially like the quotes section... many of which are exactly things Don Murphy has said.

 

[The Guard]

I think he was referring to Gobots. Where giant, shapechanging robots from the planet Gobotron who turn into vehicles with specific names, in some cases specific designs, and specific personalities, wage an interstellar war here on Earth against conquering legions of warlike robots.

Same concept, yet generally considered a garbage series by most people. Transformers is more than just the bare bones.

Very cute. Gobots, as we all know, was a Transformers ripoff to begin with. So whether the movie concept sounds like Transformers, or sounds like Gobots, it's clearly based on the Transformers mythology.

Have you EVER watched Gobots? It's pretty much the same good guy/bad guy "personalities"... so there's goes your defense.

I didn't say a damn thing about good guy/bad guy personalities. If similarities exist there, it's the fault of whoever came up with the original Transformers mythology, not the filmmakers, that the divide between the Autobots and the Decepticons is so cliche. Yes, there would go my defense...if Gobots wasn't ITSELF a ripoff of the Transformers concept to begin with, and if this movie didn't have Optimus Prime, Ratchet, Jazz, Ironhide, Bumblee, etc in it's storyline...I don't see Leader-1 or Cy-Kill anywhere...do you?

In all kids cartoons they're pretty much canned. It's the SUBTEXT (the underlying plot) and IMAGERY (their alt-modes, sizes, and look and feel) which makes Transformers.

And the subtext is...that the Autobots battle the Decepticons over energy resources and control of Cybertron's fate while allying with humans, yes? You can say it's Earth resources, but it wasn't always just those. It's energy resources, period.

Pretty much EVERY SINGLE synopsis I have ever read about Transformers goes something like this: the Transformers engage in a war for control of Earth's bountiful natural resources.

Wow. Selfish robots bent on taking our precious resources. Makes for a good heroic mythology, don't you think? Once again...SEQUELS. There has to be a reason the Autobots and Decepticons would need EARTH's resources to begin with.

But not Go-bots. What was their major plot? The search for The First Engineer.... some guy or thing that created them and infused machines with "life". SOUND FAMILIAR? Yes, it's this movie!!!

The First Engineer was an actual being. Not a cube of energy. So much for that comparison. Or are you going to sink to the level of "But both the Gobots and the movie Transformers were fighting over something!"?

 

[CFlash]

I didn't say a damn thing about good guy/bad guy personalities. If similarities exist there, it's the fault of whoever came up with the original Transformers mythology, not the filmmakers, that the divide between the Autobots and the Decepticons is so cliche. Yes, there would go my defense...if Gobots wasn't ITSELF a ripoff of the Transformers concept to begin with, and if this movie didn't have Optimus Prime, Ratchet, Jazz, Ironhide, Bumblee, etc in it's storyline...I don't see Leader-1 or Cy-Kill anywhere...do you?

NAMES. Those are just NAMES!
Transformers itself could have been a ripoff of Shogun Warriors... or a dumbed down- more for kids- Robotron. The point is that THIS movie (both in terms of plot and visual look of robots) seems to be more like Gobots than Transformers.

And the subtext is...that the Autobots battle the Decepticons over energy resources and control of Cybertron's fate while allying with humans, yes? You can say it's Earth resources, but it wasn't always just those. It's energy resources, period.

You're right. That would get old real quick. I'm not saying Transformers was Captain Planet. But the UNDERLYING theme throughout the WHOLE genesis of the series was specifically Earth's natural resources. Whether some episodes where about the Dinobots or Circuit Breaker or the stupid Carwash of Doom issue of the comic (which, incidentally, the carwash was created to.... lemme hear ya say it: to steal energy). Yes, it was a very sci-fi commentary on our reliance on fossil fuels and the destruction of our environment-- albeit in a silly kids franchise.

The major thrust of the plot was NOT The Quest for The Creator.

The First Engineer was an actual being. Not a cube of energy. So much for that comparison. Or are you going to sink to the level of "But both the Gobots and the movie Transformers were fighting over something!"?

Not just any ol' something... something that created LIFE AND SENTIENCE IN MACHINES. Yes, it's the SAME plot as this movie!!!! Whether you choose to conceede the point or not.

 

[The Guard]

NAMES. Those are just NAMES!

I believe I mentioned specific names and specific personalities, with specific roles in this specific mythology: Optimus Prime. Ironhide. Ratchet. Jazz. Bumblebee. These are not "just names", these are specific names with clear ties to Transformers mythology and clear roles in it. Their basic elements seem to have carried over into the film TRANSFORMERS. If you have a problem that those elements mirror Gobots, then you have a problem with those elements to begin with. Amusing, coming from a Transformers fan, to see something like the importance of beloved CHARACTERS tossed aside so easily in terms of making an adaption recognizeable.

Transformers itself could have been a ripoff of Shogun Warriors... or a dumbed down- more for kids- Robotron. The point is that THIS movie (both in terms of plot and visual look of robots) seems to be more like Gobots than Transformers.

You haven't given a single concrete reason why this is besides your absurd visual attempts (Look! This purple thing resembles this spiky silver thing!).

You're right. That would get old real quick. I'm not saying Transformers was Captain Planet. But the UNDERLYING theme throughout the WHOLE genesis of the series was specifically Earth's natural resources. Whether some episodes where about the Dinobots or Circuit Breaker or the stupid Carwash of Doom issue of the comic (which, incidentally, the carwash was created to.... lemme hear ya say it: to steal energy). Yes, it was a very sci-fi commentary on our reliance on fossil fuels and the destruction of our environment-- albeit in a silly kids franchise.

I don't know what to tell you. That's not the direction they're going with this film. You seem to think that missing that one theme makes it somehow not a Transformers movie. That's your right, I suppose.

The major thrust of the plot was NOT The Quest for The Creator.

Neither is that the major thrust of this film's plot. Have you read the script?

Not just any ol' something... something that created LIFE AND SENTIENCE IN MACHINES. Yes, it's the SAME plot as this movie!!!! Whether you choose to conceede the point or not.

Wonders never cease...you did sink to that level. No, it's not the same plot. Go look up the word "Same" and get back to me.

 

[CFlash]

You haven't given a single concrete reason why this is besides your absurd visual attempts (Look! This purple thing resembles this spiky silver thing!).

It's quite simple Starscream and Megatron in this movie look MORE like Gobot Renegades than Starscream and Megatron.

I don't know what to tell you. That's not the direction they're going with this film. You seem to think that missing that one theme makes it somehow not a Transformers movie. That's your right, I suppose.

Yup.

The major thrust of the plot was NOT The Quest for The Creator.

Neither is that the major thrust of this film's plot. Have you read the script?

Sorry. It's about Sam and Maggie's puppy love high-school romance. I forgot.

Not just any ol' something... something that created LIFE AND SENTIENCE IN MACHINES. Yes, it's the SAME plot as this movie!!!! Whether you choose to conceede the point or not.

Wonders never cease...you did sink to that level. No, it's not the same plot. Go look up the word "Same" and get back to me.

Yes, it is the same plot.
"2. Similar in kind, quality, quantity, or degree"

 

[The Guard]

It's quite simple Starscream and Megatron in this movie look MORE like Gobot Renegades than Starscream and Megatron.

Really? How so? Is it the wings on those renegades? Is it the generic human faces those renegades have? How about the normal-looking jet parts? No, that's not what's on that green rengade...hmm...must be the pinchers...

Sorry. It's about Sam and Maggie's puppy love high-school romance. I forgot.

Nope, that's not it either.

Yes, it is the same plot.
"2. Similar in kind, quality, quantity, or degree"

Sigh...

Thousands of years ago on the planet that came to be known as GoBotron (It is unclear if the planet was originally known as GoBotron or if its name had been changed by the robots that became the dominant lifeform), there lived a race of human-like beings. At some point in time, whether by natural causes or by catastrophe, this humaniod race ceased to exist... save two.

One became known as the Last Engineer, the stuff of GoBotian legend. The other is referred to as the Master Renegade. Nothing has been revealed about the humaniod Renegades, why they were referred to as such, or why the Master Renegade was in suspended animation. It is also unclear as to why Cy-Kill named his faction of GoBots "Renegades". Whether it was a coincidence, a matter of fact, or if Cy-Kill had some knowledge of the humaniod Renegades remains a matter of speculation.

In the last quarter of the 20th Century, the planet Earth became involved in the conflict between Leader-1's Guardians and Cy-Kill's Renegades. During one of the these battles, one of Leader-1's lieutenants became severely damaged. Unwilling to let his friend and teammate die, Leader-1 began his quest to find the legendary Last Engineer. Leader-1 found the person he believed to be the Last Engineer, but Leader-1 had unwittingly released the Master Renegade. Later realizing his mistake, Leader-1 and his allies found the true Last Engineer and Leader-1's teammate was restored to optimal condition.

What does Leader-1 and the Gobots seeking out The Last Engineer to save one of their fallen comrades have to do in terms of any degree of similarity with the Autobots seeking out a cube that produces all life so that the Decepticons won't gain its power first, and so they can take control of Cybertron?

 

[CFlash]

Really? How so? Is it the wings on those renegades? Is it the generic human faces those renegades have? How about the normal-looking jet parts? No, that's not what's on that green rengade...hmm...must be the pinchers...

It's the OVERALL organic alien look. The Decepticons never looked much different than the Autobots... not "scarier" or "monstrous." Why do it now? That was a Gobots gimmick.

What does Leader-1 and the Gobots seeking out The Last Engineer to save one of their fallen comrades have to do in terms of any degree of similarity with the Autobots seeking out a cube that produces all life so that the Decepticons won't gain its power first, and so they can take control of Cybertron?

Last Engineer:
Creator of Life.
Allspark (formerly misnamed Energon Cube in the movie):
Creater of Life.

In the cartoon this was NEVER even part of the story until TF The Movie... and even then it was used as "Leadership" thing more than a "Creating Life" thing.

In the comic "The Creation Matrix" played a major role AFTER the original miniseries and ONLY because The Decepticons where ISOLATED from Cybertron and wanted to take the Creation Matrix from Optimus in order to create reinforcements. To what end?

You see... despite subplots, and other missions, and unrelated incidents, and comedic breaks, and tangents, the overriding theme was ALWAYS harnessing EARTH (at least until I stopped watching and buying the comic 3 years later). It was the ultimate goal.

And, from what I hear... NONE of that is in the script.

 

[Boiiinng]

Nope, that's not it either.

Then what is the plot of Transformers, oh great one? Tell us, and we'll tell you if you're wrong or not. And I want your words, not something copied from IMDb.

 

[Hotwire]

It's quite simple Starscream and Megatron in this movie look MORE like Gobot Renegades than Starscream and Megatron.

I take it you have photographic evidence of this???

Sorry. It's about Sam and Maggie's puppy love high-school romance. I forgot.

If there are any humans in the movie that interact with the other charaters, you kind of have to be able to identify with the humans.

 

[Boiiinng]

I take it you have photographic evidence of this???


If there are any humans in the movie that interact with the other charaters, you kind of have to be able to identify with the humans.

Why can't we identify with the Transformers, too?

 

[bunk]

I'm not real big on the idea of some cliche teen romance for this movie but I definitely feel there has to be a human element. That was one of the things I loved so much when I was a kid. The autobots are so powerful and so much more advanced but they still genuiely cared about humans, it made me feel like part of the story living vicariously through them. The human story is an absolute must. If they were gonna take all the humans out they would be better off going entirely cg.

 

[Tad Fatherton]

They can't possibly change enough.

 

[Tad Fatherton]

It's the OVERALL organic alien look. The Decepticons never looked much different than the Autobots... not "scarier" or "monstrous." Why do it now? That was a Gobots gimmick.

aren't the decepticons from a different planet than the autobots?

 

[cryptic name]

aren't the decepticons from a different planet than the autobots?

no. they're both from the planet cybertron, both created by the same race of alien beings. both built to disguise themselves as vehicles. autobots built to serve, decepticons built to conquer. both gain sentience, one faction goes out to battle and conquer, the other to stop them.

it really is a cool premise that so much could be done with if given the proper thought and respect. pity.

 

[CherryRedSpider]

aren't the decepticons from a different planet than the autobots?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transformers_%28TV_series%29

Various series and other media (comics) have different origins. But crypitc name is right. Decepticons are military.

 

[Boiiinng]

aren't the decepticons from a different planet than the autobots?

That explains a lot.