Comics Iceman vs Human Torch

[Iceman]

Iceman with Emma Frost as backup and you can't lose - he's got range
Torch is a hothead - Iceman will stay cool

btw Torch ain't as hot as the *****ng sun whatever any stupid comic says - if he was there would be no Marvel or DC universe

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

I just don't see how Iceman can win this a majority of the time. If this is a no holds bare all out battle then Johnny Wins. The guy can reach well above the temp of the sun 1,000,000 freaking F. That's just ridiculous, Iceman stands no chance if Johnny doesn't care if he kills him.

On the other hand I doubt Johnny would kill to win, where as Bobby could push hard and still not kill Johnny. If this fight isn't all out and they take into consideration not only each others lives but surely others that are in the area bobby takes this.

 

[Galadhlight]

It's amazing how geeks getting together can argue about the slightest thing. The first blow would be the one to win. It just depends on who gets it off first. Second of all the closest thing that would probablt happen in a battle like that is a big puddle of water.

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

It's amazing how geeks getting together can argue about the slightest thing. The first blow would be the one to win. It just depends on who gets it off first. Second of all the closest thing that would probablt happen in a battle like that is a big puddle of water.

I resent that! I'm a nerd damn it!

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

if someone cant fight back they're out

what makes you think he can't fight when in vapour form?

so if johnny went nova, melted drake, then drake reformed and johnny was exhausted, wouldn't johnny be out because he couldn't fight?


I don't see your argument here

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

I just don't see how Iceman can win this a majority of the time. If this is a no holds bare all out battle then Johnny Wins. The guy can reach well above the temp of the sun 1,000,000 freaking F. That's just ridiculous, Iceman stands no chance if Johnny doesn't care if he kills him.

On the other hand I doubt Johnny would kill to win, where as Bobby could push hard and still not kill Johnny. If this fight isn't all out and they take into consideration not only each others lives but surely others that are in the area bobby takes this.

Firstly, how would Johnny be able to kill Iceman, melting him or turning him into vapour isn't killing him. tell me exactly how Fire 'KILLS' ice, water or even vapour, please enlighten me cause i've never heard anything along those lines before.

what does it matter what temp johnny can go to, once over the boiling temperature of water, it doesn't matter how much hotter he goes, drake still remains a vapour so maxing temp is irrelevant here, not to mention the fact that Bobby would never allow such a feat to be done, not allowing johnny to achieve sufficient kinetic energy to combust and set himself alight anywho.

no hold's barred matches like these need not necessarily end in death, but sufficient damage can be caused to end a confrontation, or infact if one character is rendered defenceless or unable to provide a viable means of attack, a victory can be gained by the other.

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

I'm sorry but i've stated my argument, if any Johnny storm defenders have any other argument over the non relevant 'fire melts ice' one, i'll make a decent stance but i seem to be going round in circles here pointing out the fact it doesn't matter.

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

Firstly, how would Johnny be able to kill Iceman, melting him or turning him into vapour isn't killing him. tell me exactly how Fire 'KILLS' ice, water or even vapour, please enlighten me cause i've never heard anything along those lines before.

what does it matter what temp johnny can go to, once over the boiling temperature of water, it doesn't matter how much hotter he goes, drake still remains a vapour so maxing temp is irrelevant here, not to mention the fact that Bobby would never allow such a feat to be done, not allowing johnny to achieve sufficient kinetic energy to combust and set himself alight anywho.

no hold's barred matches like these need not necessarily end in death, but sufficient damage can be caused to end a confrontation, or infact if one character is rendered defenceless or unable to provide a viable means of attack, a victory can be gained by the other.

So Bobby is purely made up of water/ice? His entire physical structe is water/ice?

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

I believe when he is in ice form, yes, plus he can use surrounding water molecules in the atmosphere to help regenerate parts of his body if he is injured.

at least that's what i think.

 

[Iceman]

If human torch is really as hot as the sun surely he is one of the most powerful things ever - there's not that many who can withstand that kind of heat.

The truth is he's not as hot as the sun

Fire melts ice
Ice becomes water
Water puts out fire

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

I believe when he is in ice form, yes, plus he can use surrounding water molecules in the atmosphere to help regenerate parts of his body if he is injured.

at least that's what i think.

Now you are basing your information off of what you think, not fact. I am not saying you are wrong but it's clearly stated that Johnny can reach 1,000,000 degrees F.

If you show me facts proving Bobby is clearly made up of Water/Ice and that he can heal himself then I'm okay with what you said.

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

If human torch is really as hot as the sun surely he is one of the most powerful things ever - there's not that many who can withstand that kind of heat.

The truth is he's not as hot as the sun

Fire melts ice
Ice becomes water
Water puts out fire

Why can't he be? Because you say so? He isn't ALWAYS as hot as the sun but CAN reach 9,000 degrees F and much much hotter.

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

Now you are basing your information off of what you think, not fact. I am not saying you are wrong but it's clearly stated that Johnny can reach 1,000,000 degrees F.

If you show me facts proving Bobby is clearly made up of Water/Ice and that he can heal himself then I'm okay with what you said.

Dude, the truth is indeed hard to swallow, but it's true, Bobby can regenerate himself from ambient ice in the atmosphere, take a look at what Wikipedia says

Over the years, his mutant physiology has gone through radical changes. First, he was able to fashion an armor of densely packed snow around his human form when lowering his temperature; later, this became armor of solid ice. Eventually, he was actually able to transform his body into organic ice in which his strength and endurance were augmented to enhanced levels, but when he turned his body back to normal, he would be an ordinary human.

For a time, Iceman could no longer revert to a human form. He was constantly in a translucent organic ice-form. Iceman is also able to reconstitute his ice-form if any part of it is damaged or even if it is completely shattered, without permanent harm to himself. He is able to temporarily add the mass of a body of water to his own to increase his mass, size and physical power. His strength and durability in his ice-form are enhanced beyond normal human levels. He can survive not only as sentient ice but as sentient water and vapor. He has the capacity to manipulate all forms of moisture. He has all of the abilities to generate projectiles, slides and shields that he always has had but they have been augmented greatly. He can also deposit his bodily mass into a river or stream and reconstitute his entire mass a great distance away in a matter of minutes.

in his ice form, he's no longer surrounded by ice but is completely made up of ice.


now the second sentence shows he can survive as a vapour, and he will start boiling at 100 degrees celcius. once completely in a vapour stage, it doesn't matter how much hotter johnny gets, iceman is still a vapour, the added still means its a vapour.

the johnny storm argument is like saying if megatron turns optimus prime into a truck, he wins a fight against them. when all optimus prime has to do is turn back and continue the bout, the argument holds no water

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

Dude, the truth is indeed hard to swallow, but it's true, Bobby can regenerate himself from ambient ice in the atmosphere, take a look at what Wikipedia says




in his ice form, he's no longer surrounded by ice but is completely made up of ice.


now the second sentence shows he can survive as a vapour, and he will start boiling at 100 degrees celcius. once completely in a vapour stage, it doesn't matter how much hotter johnny gets, iceman is still a vapour, the added still means its a vapour.

the johnny storm argument is like saying if megatron turns optimus prime into a truck, he wins a fight against them. when all optimus prime has to do is turn back and continue the bout, the argument holds no water

No the truth is not hard to swallow. DId you read what I said? I said if you show me I will accept what you stated. You did, so I do?

Where's the problem?

 

[thor87]

well i think because johnny is a hothead he would make an ignorant move, and get incapsulated in ice thus nullifying his powers. I dont think johny stands much of a chance if you think about this practically. The first move johhny makes isnt going to be going supernova, but the first move bobby makes will probably be to freeze him, when that happens the fight is over.

 

[Cyclops]

I think, Odin, what you're ignoring entirely is Bobby himself. You've got the potential range of his powers down pat, but just since when does he EVER explore the full range of his powers? Keep in mind that the most extensive his power has ever gotten was when someone else was using.

Iceman would win this fight if Bobby Drake wasn't in the way. But since he is, he stands no chance against Johnny Storm, who has experimented with his powers to a level that Bobby has never even come close to attempting.

An expert with a pistol could kill a novice with a rocket launcher any day of the week. And despite Bobby's years in the heroing business, he remains said novice, while Johnny's the expert. Bobby could be so much better, but he simply refuses to go to that length, and thus falls way short of the mark in this battle against the Human Torch.

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

No the truth is not hard to swallow. DId you read what I said? I said if you show me I will accept what you stated. You did, so I do?

Where's the problem?

there is no problem



it wasn't said in malice....

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

I think, Odin, what you're ignoring entirely is Bobby himself. You've got the potential range of his powers down pat, but just since when does he EVER explore the full range of his powers? Keep in mind that the most extensive his power has ever gotten was when someone else was using.

Iceman would win this fight if Bobby Drake wasn't in the way. But since he is, he stands no chance against Johnny Storm, who has experimented with his powers to a level that Bobby has never even come close to attempting.

An expert with a pistol could kill a novice with a rocket launcher any day of the week. And despite Bobby's years in the heroing business, he remains said novice, while Johnny's the expert. Bobby could be so much better, but he simply refuses to go to that length, and thus falls way short of the mark in this battle against the Human Torch.

I'm only really basing my point of view against those who were just thinking that purely because fire has the ability to change the state of mater of ice into vapour, it doesn't automatically make it a victory.

sure there are tatical advantages that need to be brought to the table, however i assume whenever putting together a 'VS' thread, you take both characters at their potential best when pitting them against one another, mentally, physically, the works.

Saying this, i still don't see what form of attack johnny could have to take johnny out. If you want to throw me a potential scenario, i'm all ears, or at least a range of Johnny's abilities, because except for the basics, i don't know what skills he brings to the table.

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

I'm only really basing my point of view against those who were just thinking that purely because fire has the ability to change the state of mater of ice into vapour, it doesn't automatically make it a victory.

sure there are tatical advantages that need to be brought to the table, however i assume whenever putting together a 'VS' thread, you take both characters at their potential best when pitting them against one another, mentally, physically, the works.

Saying this, i still don't see what form of attack johnny could have to take johnny out. If you want to throw me a potential scenario, i'm all ears, or at least a range of Johnny's abilities, because except for the basics, i don't know what skills he brings to the table.

I don't see how Johnny could take Johnny out either, unless he gave up?

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

It's just a typo, you know what i meant...

 

[ProfeZZor X]

You kiddies are driving me CRAZY with all these speculations on what Iceman's powers are and what he's capable of accomplishing. Well, to start off, he has been classed as an OMEGA mutant. Which basically means that he has the ability to do some serious damage on a global scale and wipe out life as we know it. He's known to be one of the most powerful mutants on the planet next to Dark Phoenix and a few others. Even further proof is a quote from the recent book of "The 198", where it goes on to say that he may quite possibly "THE" most dangerous mutant in existance. Or something to that extent. And for those that don't understand his capabilities (in the comic world), I will give you a run down of what he is actually capable of doing:

THE HERO IN HIM
1) Convert part of, or his entire body into ice (including internal organs)
2) Freeze all forms of moisture, including bodily fluids, or oils
3) Add mass to his form for defensive purposes
4) Detect thermal signals in any object, or being (like infra red vision)
5) Evaporate & teleport himself through any body of water faster than
the speed of sound
6) Transport himself and others using a molecular inversion process
(liquifying himself and others and travel as a mist cloud)
7) Create animated clones of himself by rapidly freezing and unfreezing
ice
8) Cryogenically freeze a person to slow down any life threatening illness
9) Disperse his body into any cold environment and live as an essence
(live without a body indefinitely)
10) Can bring moisture to the driest environment on the planet.

THE EVIL IN HIM
1) Can freeze every molecule of water in your body and shatter you
2) Can extract every molecule of water from your body
3) Can freeze the blood of telepaths to prevent mental attacks
4) Can reform himself after being shattered into many pieces
(even survive long periods of time as just a head of ice)
5) Can create extra limbs or restructure his body out of ice
6) Can freeze areas the size of Tokyo with ease
7) Can create all forms of wet or freezing storms
8) Can create ice tidal waves or avalanches
9) Can absorb large bodies of water to become an immense giant
10) Can create any blunt object or weapon out of ice
11) Can lower the temperature in any environment within seconds

I'm sure there are over a dozen more abilities that I forgot, but those are some of his powers that come to mind. Iceman has undergone many transformations, but one thing that has kept him from achieving even greater feats, is his light-heartedness, and lack of desire to push himself further. Many allies and villains have hinted at the unlimited posibilities he's capable of, but at this time in his life, he is comfortable with the way he is. And as much as I hate to admit it, I think the Human Torch might win. But I only say that based on his experience level, and willingness to push himself. Then again, Bobby has done some extrordinary feats as well when forced into a cornered situation. And he usually comes out on top...

If you want to learn more about him or other X-Men characters, go to www.uncannyxmen.net and look under the "Cerebro files" on the left hand side.

 

[ProfeZZor X]

I'm sorry but i've stated my argument, if any Johnny storm defenders have any other argument over the non relevant 'fire melts ice' one, i'll make a decent stance but i seem to be going round in circles here pointing out the fact it doesn't matter.

You seem to be missing the point buddy. Regardless if "fire melts ice", ice can also extinguish fire. Johnny cant exist as fire itself without have a fuel source, however Iceman can exist as water mist, hot or cold. And if you're talking about physical attacks, both can land punches upon each other. Even if Johnny was radiating at a high temperature I'm sure Iceman's fist wouldn't just evaporate as he's throwing it. Remember, he's also radiating cold too, and also regenerating the mosture he's using.

Lets say they were both contained in a stadium going at it. And Iceman does his evaporation trick and freezes the entire stadium to lower the temperature on Torch. Then he merges with the iced stadium thinking Torch can't get to him, only he has a stradegy. Torch naturally tries to flush him out and goes supernova. However, he didn't take into account that the ice damage changed the molecules & integrity of the structure and soon the Torch has hundreds of tons of water, molten steel and rubble crashing down on him. In the mean time, Iceman is in an entirely different place (in vapor form) laughing at him....

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

I have no idea what you are on about.

You put down all drake's potential parts, then vote go for johnny but again don't say how this victory would come up?

anywho with both contestants having abilities that will work from a distance, what good would it do being up close and personal and trading blows?, strategically it just doesn't seem likely for either side to want to make that kinda decision especially being aware of what the other person is capable of performing.

and a supernova can quite well have the potential to vapourise the structures of a stadium, or johnny is quite capable of melting any imposing threat coming his way so not sure if that would be likely. Also placing the bout in a place where it limits the room and agility and oxygen supply that johnny has at stake wouldn't be wise. The torch would burn his way through the ceiling of the structure and find his way out to open ground to continue the bout and wouldn't go for means of attack you've just described.


I don't know why i'm putting up better arguments for potential Storm battle strategies and plans that people that voted for him.



Even if Drake was being entirely defensive and not attacking I would like to know how johnny would come about beating him, just tell me, walk me through it because no one has done that yet and that's all i'm really interested in.

 

[Nightwing 52]

Human Torch.

 

[ProfeZZor X]

You put down all drake's potential parts, then vote go for johnny but again don't say how this victory would come up?

Even if Drake was being entirely defensive and not attacking I would like to know how johnny would come about beating him, just tell me, walk me through it because no one has done that yet and that's all i'm really interested in.

Actually, at the end of that statement I said that Iceman would more than likely come out on top, as he always does when backed into a corner. But considering the Torch's experience level and willingness to be more creative with his abilities, he'd best Bobby in that category. That's the only way I see Torch beating the "Popsicle".

I also have to correct you on a few things you mentioned about Drake: He pulls the ambient moisture of the air, not ice. He can also cover many miles in any body of water in seconds, not minutes (Uncanny #314). Wikipedia is also a bit outdated and incorrect on quite a few things on him too. www.Uncannyxmen.net is far more acurate.

I will admit though that you got me on that whole stadium bout. I didn't condsider the fact that the ice would turn into vapour once Johnny went supernova. However, now that I think about it, Johnny usually exhausts his powers immediately after he goes supernova, and reverts back to his human form. During this time, Iceman could easily take advantage of this situation, regardless of if he was in mist, liquid, or ice form.

So I guess you and I were on the same page after all.