Comics Iceman vs Human Torch

[ProfeZZor X]

Wow... This thread is a blast from my past. This is pretty much where I made my mark as a newbie in this forum.

And not to add fuel the fire even more over this debate, but Iceman has recently been charred by Northstar and Aurora in a firey blast... In human form. Apparently he has the ability to automatically turn into ice/snow/vapour when instantly incenerated, or in a dangerous situation. This recent situation only adds to the debate held during his time as just a living head during the "Draco" story arc. After that empaled arrow exploded his human torso, there was really never any resolve as to what or how it happened when he converted to ice. The same can be said during X-Men Forever when he was evaporated by the Sentinels.

Although, I find it advantageous of him to be able to create a clone of himself, or other animated ice creations to fool his opponents. The close of Zero Tolerance was a good example, when Bastion thought he had the upper hand, while pummelling a downed Iceman with punches. What he thought was Iceman, was actually a clone, and the real Iceman had turned into mist form, resolidified, and snuck up behind Bastion to land a sucker punch to the back of his head.... Who says the same thing can't be done with the Torch?

Oh yeah... Then there was that time when Iceman went Supernova too. I think it was Chris Claremonts and Jim Lee's last book together, when the X-Men were pitted in a fight against each other. Psylocke snuck up behind Iceman and stabbed him in the head with a psi-blade. As a result, it screwed up his neural patterns or something like that, and it sent out a shockwave of cold energy that froze everything within a certain radius into solid ice... which obviously included Psylocke and every person within that radius.

 

[Nature's Rising]

He's not god, and certainly no match to an Omega mutant who he is able to reconstitute his body every time. He can what? Control fire? Big deal. His opponent can control his own powers on molecular level, clearly he's outmatched in every way.

First, it takes a while to form that much temperature. Second, is that it is already his most powerful attack and it strains him on a very high level. Iceman would just laugh on his face. The energy he spent to form that nova will only take a snap for Bobby to remove all the moisture from his body, or freeze his blood, etc. If Johnny's supernova puts him in greater risk, then he is clearly outclassed because Bobby can actually put him out of his misery in a blink of an eye without resolving to his 'most' powerful attacks. There is no way Torch is going to win this thing. Unless Bobby is a wuss like right now. But then we're talking about Torch producing supernova, which is entirely out of his normal characterization so I assume both are in bloodlust mode. Having said that, Iceman's arsenal is far broader and more powerful than Torch's.
Iceman > Torch.

 

[Cyclops]

Thing that confuses me is you have Cyclops as an avatar, then seem to think Iceman only gained his powers when Frost took over his body. He displayed tons of powers before Emma took his body over. What's more you say that Bobby can't go to vapor, then say well he can but will never pull it off, then say that vs. fights aren't about someone using their full potential or something like that, then claim Torch will win in a second with Nova his ultimate move...contradictions galore...no offense.

Complete lack of reading comprehension galore... no offense. When Emma Frost took over his body, she used his powers to a level he never had done. THAT is what I said. I cannot be held accountable if you couldn't understand that.

Why would Bobby not be allowed to use his better techniques in your opinion, but Torch be able to use his best right off the bat. Also I don't see Iceman immediately making Torch a popcycle, more likely Torch is already lit up in the air when him and Bobby meet up, not sure why Torch would be in human form standing in front of Iceman for no reason.

I said nothing about Bobby at normal levels but Johnny at his best. I said both as they were at the time I wrote that post ages ago (good job on the timely criticism, by the way). And at that time, Johnny was confident, powerful, and wholly in control of his abilities. And at that time, Bobby was a whiny punk who had nothing to offer other than being a total bastard.

I see the fight starting out as a test, both blast a few times, neithers stupid enough to waste all their energy at just seeing their opponent. They both blast eachother and cancel eachother out a few times, Bobby notices the heat more than Johnny, and Johnny gets over confident saying something like "Hot enough for ya" or something corny. They do a more powerful blast, and Iceman holds back the stream barely, as even tho it's just turning into vapor, Torch's heat is easily melting Iceman's blast. Torch tho probably knows little about Iceman's powers past he can generate Ice, Iceman on the other hand probably knows plenty about Johnny as Johnny is practically a celebrity in the MU and well known power wise. Iceman like said about probably wouldn't use all his powers or think to use them, just as doesn't web ppl in the eyes and punch them out blind everytime. He realizes a straight up ice vs fire blast test isn't going to win it for him. Torch is getting impatient and...eh nm, can't think of a good end to the scenario.

Point is I vote Iceman. Like said above when backed in a corner he lets more power leak out. His power is more unbeatable than Johnny's. Johnny's fire destroys, but doesn't protect Johnny outside of melting projectiles, which is why Hulk's sonic clap put the Torch out in another issue. Iceman on the other hand when in vapor form is untouchable, and really he doesn't have to concentrate to do it. When in ice form he is ice, when that ice is melted he's vapor, no difference, and no more thought than him being in ice form, he's just became a less tangible form of water. In vapor form Torch can go supernova and still not destroy that vapor. Basically Torch can out power Iceman, but Torch can't fully defeat Iceman. Torch can hold the upper hand for awhile, but can't deliver the final blow becomes Iceman can become untouchable, meanwhile Torch's power leaks out like a siv. After being Supernova Johnny's done for, and in human form. Iceman on the other hand is reforming from vapor and still fully powered. ONLY way I see Torch winning is if Iceman goes stupid for some reason and reverts to human form mid fight and gets torched, past that as long as Iceman is frosty, Torch just can't win. It's like trying to destroy butter with a knife, sure it cuts it easy, but that butter still exists even in separate pieces, even if you melt it it just becomes liquid and vapor. Same here, Iceman can be a puddle from Torch's heat, or vapor in the air, but Iceman's still alive and far from down, Torch runs out of juice, and virtually unijured Iceman reforms and ko's him.

If this is so, then why isn't Iceman the most powerful and effective being on the entire planet? I dunno about you, but the Iceman I know has been treated like a joke for so long that he's got no advantages in a fight with the Human Torch.

 

[Fading]

Honestly didn't mean to offend, and with characters constantly fluctating in power you can start an argument when ones powerful and the other weak and pathetic, and 2 months later roles reverse. I know you know X-Men as you've posted plenty, just in my mind Iceman's one of the more underappreciated hero's. Sure he's had his share of downer's, but the guys trained hard since he was a kid along with Cyke and the rest, been fighting longer than some of us have been alive. He's been thru plenty, and discovered more about himself than Icing up before Emma took him over. Though I do agree Emma made him realize he was only touching the tip of the Iceburg (no pun intended) of his power, but now that he's realized he has that power, it's probably a lot easier to tap into it. Like the first time you went skating and didn't want to because you didn't know you could, after a few tries you get better to the point of being able to without thinking about it.

I do agree his attitude is why he's not more fearsome. But he always struck me as the type when needed and called upon he can step up, and when backed into a corner he tries harder. Plus like stated above about him even being in human form and not killed when torched (body is what 90% water?), so for all we know his ability to control himself on a molecular level might not even be a concious one. Depending on the writer I guess, he might be near the lvl of turning into vapor being instinct, and a natural reaction to almost being killed.

 

[ProfeZZor X]

Complete lack of reading comprehension galore... no offense. When Emma Frost took over his body, she used his powers to a level he never had done. THAT is what I said. I cannot be held accountable if you couldn't understand that.

Actually, Iceman had already done two of the three things Emma did, LONG BEFORE she did.

1) Travel in water (her)
2) Heal from a massive wound (him, Uncanny #300)
3) Shape shift into organic form (him, Uncanny #302)

Because she did these things doesn't make her a better Iceman. I get tired of people using her as a leverage to what he's capable of doing. That's like saying Colossus is a better Magneto, because Colossus can manipulate organic metal better... It makes no sense.

The Official Iceman thread has plenty of pictures of him doing tons of things with his powers before and after Emma came along.... Most of them done on his own.

 

[Cyclops]

Then why did he go to her for advice during the Generation X years? Why did he go to her? Did he not say that she used his powers to a level he never had? Or am I just hallucinating?

 

[ProfeZZor X]

Then why did he go to her for advice during the Generation X years? Why did he go to her? Did he not say that she used his powers to a level he never had? Or am I just hallucinating?

That's because Marvel fell through the cracks once again and didn't bother to educate their writers on Iceman's previous history. In Uncanny #300, ten or more issues before Emma took over his body, he had his face shattered by someone with super strength, but recovered by healing and adding mass and spikes to defeat that foe. In #302, he became a ice slick on the road, and morphed into a giant hand, to capture a mutant hater. Then morphed into the bulkier (#300) version, with the mutant hater still in his giant hand. To me, that would have to take a tremendous amount of concentration to pull off.

Besides, you're talking about one minute little snippet of information that was a couple of panels long, in one book, and carried on into another issue. He even slowed the blood flow to her brain to prevent her from using her telepathy in that issue. Something she didn't expect from him, or do to those guards that blew the hole in her chest in that one issue. She travelled in water, and closed a hole in his chest... that's it. If you think that constitues her as being better than he's ever done, then I really do think you're hallucinating...

 

[toya thegr8]

I voted Iceman, because he has more in his arsenal than Human Torch.