If Satan changed Hell into a blissful paradise...

[Leto Atrides]

That's a cruel game to play. Let's see if this guy takes the bait so I can throw him in Hell for all eternity.

Still, without a choice there is no free will.

 

[Outsiderzedge]

God doesn't exist?

PROVE IT!

Whether he exists or not is inconsequential as long as he, himself, does nothing of any effect to those of us whom don't need to believe in him i.e. God may exist, but he has done nothing to warrant needing to believe in him unless you are a person of little possession, either materially or figuratively, and need something to comfort you or to keep you morally stable.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Religion is an invaluable tool for those in charge of governing men.

Discussing and following a religion is for poor people though.

you contradict a sig you once had.

 

[Leto Atrides]

Whether he exists or not is inconsequential as long as he, himself, does nothing of any effect to those of us whom don't need to believe in him i.e. God may exist, but he has done nothing to warrant needing to believe in him unless you are a person of little possession, either materially or figuratively, and need something to comfort you or to keep you morally stable.

Everyone needs something to keep them moral. Society, shame, fear of punishment, etc. Why does God being that thing mean you are weak? I'm not going to approach looking to religion for comfort making you weak.

I'm not religious myself. But saying that believing in God is somehow lesser than not is pretty arrogant.

 

[Outsiderzedge]

Everyone needs something to keep them moral. Society, shame, fear of punishment, etc. Why does God being that thing mean you are weak? I'm not going to approach looking to religion for comfort making you weak.

I'm not religious myself. But saying that believing in God is somehow lesser than not is pretty arrogant.

The only thing that should keep a person moral is sense and reason. Anything else; fear, shame, faith, etc. can be dismissed and easily overcome or rejected.

 

[E. Bison]

Why does God give Satan any power? Is He powerless to stop Satan?

If you are speaking of Angelic cosmic power that's because thats how all angels were created naturally. Satan and the demons misuse and abuse that power, but God did limit that ability after the flood. He took their ability to materialize into physical beings on Earth. They no longer can do that. He also took their ability to move anywhere outside the Earth recently as well. God has promised to eventually imprison and destroy Satan and his demons forever but he could not do so because of important issues brought up during Adam and Eve's and Job's time.

 

[E. Bison]

Why does God give Satan any power? Is He powerless to stop Satan?

If you are speaking of Angelic cosmic power that's because thats how all angels were created naturally. Satan and the demons misuse and abuse that power, but God did limit that ability after the flood. He took their ability to materialize into physical beings on Earth. They no longer can do that. He also took their ability to move anywhere outside the Earth recently as well. God has promised to eventually imprison and destroy Satan and his demons forever but he could not do so because of important issues brought up during Adam and Eve's and Job's time.

 

[Leto Atrides]

The only thing that should keep a person moral is sense and reason. Anything else; fear, shame, faith, etc. can be dismissed and easily rejected.

You sound like someone from the 1600s. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just struck me as very Enlightenment era.

 

[Outsiderzedge]

The problem with usuing sense and reason as your moral compass is the amount of strength one needs to stay true to it. Although this may make using them impractical, I believe that succeeding in doing so will make you a better person than if you were driven by fear, shame or faith.

 

[The Question]

This is actually an interesting question. Really, it depends entirely on what perception of the stories you subscribe to. There are multiple interpritations of the devil throughout theology and literature.


First off, there's the idea that the devil is the lord and master of Hell, and controls all that goes on in it. Therefore, he would be fully capable of making hell into a nice place. But then, that also depends on what you veiw to be hell worthy. Is it simply being a sinful person, such as doing bad things to other people, or does it encompas not following the church. And then, you must also take into account how you veiw the devil in terms of personality. The funny thing is, there are almost no instances in the bible where the devil is presented as being sadistic or cruel, and thus no evidence that he would at all be proud of or ally himself with the Hitlers and Stalins of the world. All the devil did, in the bible, was question god. Now, there may be instances I'm unaware of, but to my knowlege, he never directly harmed anyone. In the book of Gob, he simply asked the question "do yout followers truely love you, or do they simply say that they love you because you give them the things that they want?" That is, actually, a rather good philisophical question in of itself. When he tempted Jesus in the desert, he did just that. He tempted him. He didn't hurt him in any way. He simply asked "Well, why does it have to be this way? Why can't you do it another way?" And, of course, in the book of Genisis, all he did was say "Hey, what would eating a stupid little fruit hurt?" The only depictions of the devil as a true monster is in the book of revelations, and even then, it's not the devil that does the mass murder, it's his son. The devil was simply meant to show the rebel. The person who questions the status quo. It's just, to many, this is considered to be a bad thing, so he is thus considered to be evil. So, one must ask the question. If Satan truely did have the ability to make hell into a good place to be, would he want to? Would he want to reward the murderers and rapists who end up in his domain? Would he identifiy with them at all? Or would he be just as disgusted with their actions as we are?


Then, of course, there are two other interpritations that I can think of, both of which throw the idea of the devil controling Hell completely out the window. One is that he is banished there with the rest of the demons and the damned. He has no power to leave. He may be the top dog in the prison, but he's still a prisoner.

The other is that he neither was banished there nor does he control it. He simply quit his place in heaven, and went to live in hell because it was simply the only place left to go. While he quickly atained a possition of power over the demons and the damned due to his imense power, he does not control hell, he did not create it, and he has no ability to make it any better or worse than it is.

 

[blind_fury]

Good people go to hell as well. Job wanted to be hidden in hell and Jesus went to hell when he died. So good people go to hell as well.

God is the perfect judge. There is no way a good person should go to Hell and if they did it wouldn't be long until God made things right.

Hell was created by God for sinners. Ok fine. But why does Satan have control over ANYTHING? Did God forget to take away his powers?

 

[E. Bison]

The problem is that GOOD PEOPLE go to hell as well if you notice from the scriptual text. Jesus went to hell and was pulled out of it. Job wanted to be hidden in hell until the time was right to be pulled out of it. So ALL people go to hell. Not just bad people.

 

[blind_fury]

Religion is an invaluable tool for those in charge of governing men.

Discussing and following a religion is for poor people though.

If people can discuss cars and sports why can't they discuss religion?

 

[blind_fury]

The problem is that GOOD PEOPLE go to hell as well if you notice from the scriptual text. Jesus went to hell and was pulled out of it. Job wanted to be hidden in hell until the time was right to be pulled out of it. So ALL people go to hell. Not just bad people.

ok, now I'm scared.

 

[Addendum]

god? satan?

I have no reason to believe in either

 

[blind_fury]

Still, without a choice there is no free will.

If there's an ultimatum then there's really no choice.

The ultimatum being follow this path OR ELSE!

 

[Outsiderzedge]

If people can discuss cars and sports why can't they discuss religion?

I never said they couldn't.

 

[blind_fury]

If you are speaking of Angelic cosmic power that's because thats how all angels were created naturally. Satan and the demons misuse and abuse that power, but God did limit that ability after the flood. He took their ability to materialize into physical beings on Earth. They no longer can do that. He also took their ability to move anywhere outside the Earth recently as well. God has promised to eventually imprison and destroy Satan and his demons forever but he could not do so because of important issues brought up during Adam and Eve's and Job's time.

If a demon opposes me and are a bloody sore to all humanity, why the Hell would I sustain their power? Does God NEED opposition? Is this a game or something?

 

[blind_fury]

I never said they couldn't.

you basically said they shouldn't:

Religion is an invaluable tool for those in charge of governing men.

Discussing and following a religion is for poor people though.

 

[blind_fury]

god? satan?

I have no reason to believe in either

what if there's a afterlife!

 

[E. Bison]

God is the perfect judge. There is no way a good person should go to Hell and if they did it wouldn't be long until God made things right.

Hell was created by God for sinners. Ok fine. But why does Satan have control over ANYTHING? Did God forget to take away his powers?

If you remember from the verses I gave you earlier it said Jesus went to hell. Jesus NEVER sinned so why did HE go to hell? There is a lot of confusion about hell may I ask you WHICH HELL you are speaking of? There is Sheol, Hades, The Lake of Fire, and Tartarus. Did you know that some Bible translations translate all these words simply as "hell"? Where it says Hades, Sheol, and Tartarus in the Bible it is translated as "hell" BUT THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. Do you know what those difference are?

God never forgot about Satan and what he did. Ask yourself this: Could God just not have simply destroyed Satan, Adam and Eve right after they sinned? If he could have why not? It was because of issues Satan brought up about the sovereignty of God and the freedom of mankind. God allowed Satan to prove his challenge about mankind so as to settle these issues once and for all. These issues involved allowing time to pass so as things can be proven and this also included allowing Satan and his demons to exist. Here are the issues brought up by Satan:

Do humans serve God only because God gives them good things?
Would ALL humans turn away from God if Satan gave them a reason to?
Can humans govern themselve successfully without God?
Can humananity prosper and live peacefully without God?
Is the integrity of humans strong enough to withstand suffering and not turn away from God?
Can humans set up perfect successful governments for themselves?
Can humanity guide itself without God?

 

[Outsiderzedge]

you basically said they shouldn't:

You have poor reading comprehension. I merely stated that there is no need to discuss it unless you are lacking in the means, whether internally or externally, to be satisfied without it.

 

[E. Bison]

If a demon opposes me and are a bloody sore to all humanity, why the Hell would I sustain their power? Does God NEED opposition? Is this a game or something?

God NEVER wanted opposition nor EVER needed it. Remember that Jehovah is perfect justice, love, and wisdom. No it is not a game. It was a challenge to God's rightful sovereignty of the universe and earth.

 

[blind_fury]

You have poor reading comprehension. I merely stated that there is no need to discuss it unless you are lacking in the means, whether internally or externally, to be satisfied without it.

wtf is this, the goddam SATs?

 

[Addendum]

what if there's a afterlife!

Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Citeaux, 1209, justifying a wholesale massacre during the crusades, was asked by a commander how they should tell who were the Christians and who were the enemies of God. "Kill them all; for the Lord knoweth them that are His" was his reply, suggesting that God would rectify the situation on the Judgement Day by vindicating the Christian victims of this slaughter.

Also - Joseph Lewis said, "With this recognition of the finality of death, no one should willingly withhold acts that would bring benefits, joy or happiness to others."