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If Satan changed Hell into a blissful paradise...

E. Bison said:
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God NEVER wanted opposition nor EVER needed it. Remember that Jehovah is perfect justice, love, and wisdom. No it is not a game. It was a challenge to God's rightful sovereignty of the universe and earth.
Any oppostion to God would be like a flea on a dog. So that so-called challenge is meaningless.
 
Addendum said:
Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Citeaux, 1209, justifying a wholesale massacre during the crusades, was asked by a commander how they should tell who were the Christians and who were the enemies of God. "Kill them all; for the Lord knoweth them that are His" was his reply, suggesting that God would rectify the situation on the Judgement Day by vindicating the Christian victims of this slaughter.

Also - Joseph Lewis said, "With this recognition of the finality of death, no one should willingly withhold acts that would bring benefits, joy or happiness to others."
Does that include sexual favors? :)
 
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I suggest you ignore Outsiderzedge because he/she is just causing disruptions. Your questions and concerns are valid. Anyways, THIS CHALLENGE was NOT meaningless. It was a direct challenge to God's rightful sovereignty and human integrity. The only way to secure peace and order on earth and the universe was to allow these issues to be settled.
 
E. Bison said:
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Here are the issues brought up by Satan:

Do humans serve God only because God gives them good things?
YES.
Would ALL humans turn away from God if Satan gave them a reason to?
OBVIOUSLY.
Can humans govern themselve successfully without God?
MAYBE.
Can humananity prosper and live peacefully without God?
I DUNNO.
Is the integrity of humans strong enough to withstand suffering and not turn away from God?
NOPE.
Can humans set up perfect successful governments for themselves?
PROBABLY.
Can humanity guide itself without God?
I DUNNO.

There, I saved all of humanity the trouble of living through the apocalypse.
 
blind_fury said:
Why would anyone remain loyal to God?

For goodness sake?

Anyone who does what is morally right simply out of fear of punishment isn't much of a moral person to begin with.
 
This doesn't really fit with my previous arguments, as it is from a different perspective. Doesn't even necessarily go with scripture, but I've heard the ideas expressed:

Hell is for those who reject God. You are not letting yourself be with God, in Heaven, for whatever reason. Being moral, "following His path", etc. is a way of showing you accept Him. If you know God doesn't like you doing something, and you do it anyway, you are pushing yourself away from him.

God is not sending you to hell to be punished. Hell is (not including Earth) all that which is not Heaven. This realm is led by Satan, who was the first to think he did not need to accept God. You can't enter Heaven without accepting God, so if you don't you are in hell.

Hell could even be seen as just not being with God. Heaven is not a literal space with boundaries. It is being close to God. Hell, then is being far from him. In that case, the torture is not physically being caused pain. It is the knowledge that you could have bathed in His glory and light, but you can't now and it is your fault. You are in the dark and alone for all eternity. This is where Satan is, and he tries to make others be in the dark too.
 
E. Bison said:
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I suggest you ignore Outsiderzedge because he/she is just causing disruptions. Your questions and concerns are valid. Anyways, THIS CHALLENGE was NOT meaningless. It was a direct challenge to God's rightful sovereignty and human integrity. The only way to secure peace and order on earth and the universe was to allow these issues to be settled.
:rolleyes:


That's the only way? Why would an all-knowing God need such a long drawn out experiment?
 
Kent said:
Anyone who does what is morally right simply out of fear of punishment isn't much of a moral person to begin with.
Why are people "moral" then?

and don't say "because it's the right thing to do." :rolleyes:
 
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Now the whole issue of Hell and the afterlife can be settled right here and right now with these verses.

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol[hell], the place to which you are going.”

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.”

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.”

Psalm 13:3 "Do look [upon me]; answer me, O Jehovah my God.
Do make my eyes shine, that I may not fall asleep in death,"

Eccl. 9:6: “Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”

Isa. 26:14: “They are dead; they will not live. Impotent in death, they will not rise up.”
 
blind_fury said:
Why are people "moral" then?

and don't say "because it's the right thing to do." :rolleyes:

There are many reasons why different people are moral.

The question is which reasons are better.
 
Leto Atrides said:
This doesn't really fit with my previous arguments, as it is from a different perspective. Doesn't even necessarily go with scripture, but I've heard the ideas expressed:

Hell is for those who reject God. You are not letting yourself be with God, in Heaven, for whatever reason. Being moral, "following His path", etc. is a way of showing you accept Him. If you know God doesn't like you doing something, and you do it anyway, you are pushing yourself away from him.

God is not sending you to hell to be punished. Hell is (not including Earth) all that which is not Heaven. This realm is led by Satan, who was the first to think he did not need to accept God. You can't enter Heaven without accepting God, so if you don't you are in hell.

Hell could even be seen as just not being with God. Heaven is not a literal space with boundaries. It is being close to God. Hell, then is being far from him. In that case, the torture is not physically being caused pain. It is the knowledge that you could have bathed in His glory and light, but you can't now and it is your fault. You are in the dark and alone for all eternity. This is where Satan is, and he tries to make others be in the dark too.

Morals aren't something that religion has ownership of. I know plenty atheists who have a good sense of morality.
 
E. Bison said:
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Now the whole issue of Hell and the afterlife can be settled right here and right now with these verses.

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol[hell], the place to which you are going.”

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.”

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.”

Psalm 13:3 "Do look [upon me]; answer me, O Jehovah my God.
Do make my eyes shine, that I may not fall asleep in death,"

Eccl. 9:6: “Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”

Isa. 26:14: “They are dead; they will not live. Impotent in death, they will not rise up.”

I don't see what there is about a ******* that merits any of that!
 
blind_fury said:
:rolleyes:


That's the only way? Why would an all-knowing God need such a long drawn out experiment?
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It wasn't for HIM (God) to know the outcome of these issues. Who else was watching these arguments and issues brought up before God?

Job 1:6-12 "Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.

7 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” 8 And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad?” 9 At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? 10 Have not you yourself put up a hedge about him and about his house and about everything that he has all around? The work of his hands you have blessed, and his livestock itself has spread abroad in the earth. 11 But, for a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch everything he has [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.” 12 Accordingly Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!” So Satan went out away from the person of Jehovah.

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The angels were also watching these issues and arguments come about. It's why some angels sided with Satan and became demons along with him. If God destroyed Satan, others would have just followed in Satan's footsteps later eventually. This was for humans AND angels to witness the outcome of these issues and have them settled forever.
 
Addendum said:
Morals aren't something that religion has ownership of. I know plenty atheists who have a good sense of morality.
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People who have morals and ethics outside of religions are doing so out of consciousness. The internal sense of knowing right from wrong. You are correct that many religions corrupt reason, logic, and morals. Many use religion to persecute,harm, and kill others. Our conscsiousness give us a sense but it is limited ofcourse because of outside influences.
 
E. Bison said:
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The angels were also watching these issues and arguments come about. It's why some angels sided with Satan and became demons along with him. If God destroyed Satan, others would have just followed in Satan's footsteps later eventually. This was for humans AND angels to witness the outcome of these issues and have them settled forever.

There are so many ways God could prove "he is teh awesome" without putting us through all this s**t.
 
Addendum said:
Morals aren't something that religion has ownership of. I know plenty atheists who have a good sense of morality.

So do I. Many of my best friends are, as am I. As I said, this isn't my own belief. I was just proposing it. And presumably, under this system, atheists would go to the afterlife and meet God. They could then embrace him. I would, under the circumnstances.

Also, it isn't a permanent thing. If you are unrepentent, like Satan, you would stay away from God forever. If you were repentent though, you could get closer to Him.
 
I don't think I'd want an afterlife,for better or worse.
 
blind_fury said:
There are so many ways God could prove "he is teh awesome" without putting us through all this s**t.
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The issue wasn't about if God was Almighty. Not even Satan doubted that. The issues were whether mankind could prosper, guide, and govern themselves WITHOUT any interference from God. That is why he has allowed Satan, demons, wickedness and suffering to exist. To prove to ALL creation (not himself) that Jehovah is needed and that he is the rightful soveriegn.
 
Gee,that doesn't make him sound like a jerk at all.:rolleyes:
 
blind_fury said:
Why are people "moral" then?

and don't say "because it's the right thing to do." :rolleyes:

Empathy.
 
blind_fury said:
YES.

OBVIOUSLY.

MAYBE.

I DUNNO.

NOPE.

PROBABLY.

I DUNNO.

There, I saved all of humanity the trouble of living through the apocalypse.

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This is why time was allowed to pass along with Satan and his minions to exist. Time was allowed to pass so as these issues could be settled as either definite YES or NO answers. Now the part of humans loving God only because of giving them good things has been answered partially by one man in the Bible, Job. God allowed Satan to take away all his things and loved ones so he would stop loving God and curse him. Job kept his integrity and never cursed God regardless that hsi possesions were taken away.
 
Leto Atrides said:
So do I. Many of my best friends are, as am I. As I said, this isn't my own belief. I was just proposing it. And presumably, under this system, atheists would go to the afterlife and meet God. They could then embrace him. I would, under the circumnstances.

Also, it isn't a permanent thing. If you are unrepentent, like Satan, you would stay away from God forever. If you were repentent though, you could get closer to Him.
I still don't see a reason why I should believe in a god-claim
 
Not trying to give proof of why the whole thing exists. Just trying to explain internal logic.
 
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You guys, this thread is about Hell, NOT about the existence of God. Go and make your own thread about God's existence elsewhere please. This thread is for believers and if you guys don't want to believe than go make a thread about it elsewhere, please.
 
Just Addedum's question concerned that. I understand your worry, but it hasn't gone anywhere yet.
 

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