I'm Reading Your Stuff: General News and Discussion Thread

[AndyTrevino]

I've decided that the "deeper corruption" is about Martha and the Arkhams and the antagonists are Hugo Strange/Jeremiah Arkham and Hush/Clayface.

I'd save that, or at least the main idea of that for Part III.

 

[DKDetective]

I don't want to really get into it, because I did see an interview out there with Colin where he mentions some stuff about the last episode and about how the way the series is going to end for Oz. And I'll be honest, there's something in those comments from Colin that I think could potentially be indicators that the Court are next, but it's nothing definitive for any particular villain or storyline.

In fact, the bigger issue I have is that of the stuff that I've heard, there's not exactly much in the way of things where it was abundantly clear to me that the show was setting up for Part 2 to be about this comic story or that comic story.



I definitely think that we're going to be seeing continued influence from the Loeb books in the saga moving forward, especially from Dark Victory.

Speaking of comments from Reeves about Part 2, he just gave another big doozy of a quote in this new interview with Digital Spy!




So once again, Reeves is driving how the story of Part 2 revolves around public unrest from deeper corruption in Gotham City and that it's tying back to the revelations from the first film's big reveals about Falcone, the Renewal Fund and the history of Thomas Wayne, Martha and the Arkhams. And in addition to that, Reeves also reiterates the point that this film is going to tackle the conflicts being more gray and that Gotham's inhabitants are becoming enclosed in echo chambers- and in recalling Reeves' previous quote on this matter, this issue being at least partly caused and enflamed deliberately by specific individuals with their own agendas.

And of course, there's the emotional aspect for all of this and how it's all going to tie back into Bruce's continued character arc and growth moving forward.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like a set-up for the Court of Owls at all to me. The morally grey battle to me sounds like Bruce having to grapple with the fact that the crime/violence he is seeing in Gotham is being driven by inequality, poverty, etc. It sounds to me like a story/impetus for Bruce to develop his philantrophic public persona and have to contribute to Gotham in a way other than Batman.

It could thematically similar to Ghosts (the Christmas Carol issue of Loeb/Sale's Haunted Knight collection), which ends with Bruce's realization that he needs to be more for Gotham than just Batman. The Christmas timing of Part II could be a clue in that regard.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

The Court Of Owls represent the wealthy and the powerful and the richest 1%, so if anything that message works perfectly for them as the big bad.

 

[C Prometheus]

The Court Of Owls represent the wealthy and the powerful and the richest 1%, so if anything that message works perfectly for them as the big bad.

This is exactly it. There's a very obvious and clear synergy between the Court of Owls and everything that Reeves talks about in those quotes.

Like I've said for a week or two now, I wouldn't be surprised if Reeves revamps the Court by downscaling the importance or functionality of the Talons in order to integrate other Rogues Gallery villains into the plot more organically and further showcase the wealth disparity and form of power and affluence that the members of the Court hold by using leverage to get other marquee villains to do their bidding for them, against their will.

Let's take Mr Freeze, for instance. Say someone like Ferris Boyle is a member of the Court in this continuity and the Court need an easy and expendable fall guy to pressure into doing certain dirty deeds for them. In this, you can have Boyle and the Court pressuring Victor into killing on their behalf in order to secure funding and medical treatment for Nora. Which itself would align well with what Reeves was saying about how Bruce is going to struggle more in Part 2 with dealing with shades of gray and that there's far more ambiguity in the world than he initially assumed back in the start of Part 1.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like a set-up for the Court of Owls at all to me. The morally grey battle to me sounds like Bruce having to grapple with the fact that the crime/violence he is seeing in Gotham is being driven by inequality, poverty, etc. It sounds to me like a story/impetus for Bruce to develop his philantrophic public persona and have to contribute to Gotham in a way other than Batman.

It could thematically similar to Ghosts (the Christmas Carol issue of Loeb/Sale's Haunted Knight collection), which ends with Bruce's realization that he needs to be more for Gotham than just Batman. The Christmas timing of Part II could be a clue in that regard.

Yes, and all of that absolute fits with what the Court of Owls are and what they represent in the world today.

I want to ask, since I get the impression folks have been ignoring this point a lot for the past week, if you're looking at all of these quotes from Reeves with a keen eye and noticing the consistent pattern and points he's making about Part 2- that the film revolves around a mystery concerning a "deeper corruption" from what Bruce unearthed in Part 1 and that the way these crimes/violence, social disconnect and Reeves' allusions to actors creating disinformation and division and how that all relates to a "larger picture."

I keep saying it- It might not be the Court of Owls. There are other options. But the options that all come to mind here otherwise feel ill fit for the world Reeves is making here with his version of Gotham City in a way that the Court of Owls seem to match quite well.

So if anyone has counterarguments to those points, please, let's take a crack at that!

 

[Sawyer]

I wouldn’t mind the Court of Owls at all and I’m sure Reeves could do something great with it, but it would be deeply funny to me if it ends up that you’re all way off from what Part II actually ends up being.

 

[C Prometheus]

I wouldn’t mind the Court of Owls at all and I’m sure Reeves could do something great with it, but it would be deeply funny to me if it ends up that you’re all way off from what Part II actually ends up being.

I certainly wouldn't mind! I can laugh at myself for looking like a fool if that ends up coming to pass.

At the end of the day, it's not my Batman story being told here after all. I'm just here speculating on what Reeves is cooking up, same as everyone else.

 

[BobJM]

I’d love a genuine surprise; I think I even threw out Max Cort from Batman: Prey lol. Just want to see what Reeves can do with the lore.

I got my parents to watch the premiere and my dad’s first question after watching (they loved it) was “do you think anyone else is going to show up?”

 

[solidsnake86]

This is exactly it. There's a very obvious and clear synergy between the Court of Owls and everything that Reeves talks about in those quotes.

Like I've said for a week or two now, I wouldn't be surprised if Reeves revamps the Court by downscaling the importance or functionality of the Talons in order to integrate other Rogues Gallery villains into the plot more organically and further showcase the wealth disparity and form of power and affluence that the members of the Court hold by using leverage to get other marquee villains to do their bidding for them, against their will.

Let's take Mr Freeze, for instance. Say someone like Ferris Boyle is a member of the Court in this continuity and the Court need an easy and expendable fall guy to pressure into doing certain dirty deeds for them. In this, you can have Boyle and the Court pressuring Victor into killing on their behalf in order to secure funding and medical treatment for Nora. Which itself would align well with what Reeves was saying about how Bruce is going to struggle more in Part 2 with dealing with shades of gray and that there's far more ambiguity in the world than he initially assumed back in the start of Part 1.



Yes, and all of that absolute fits with what the Court of Owls are and what they represent in the world today.

I want to ask, since I get the impression folks have been ignoring this point a lot for the past week, if you're looking at all of these quotes from Reeves with a keen eye and noticing the consistent pattern and points he's making about Part 2- that the film revolves around a mystery concerning a "deeper corruption" from what Bruce unearthed in Part 1 and that the way these crimes/violence, social disconnect and Reeves' allusions to actors creating disinformation and division and how that all relates to a "larger picture."

I keep saying it- It might not be the Court of Owls. There are other options. But the options that all come to mind here otherwise feel ill fit for the world Reeves is making here with his version of Gotham City in a way that the Court of Owls seem to match quite well.

So if anyone has counterarguments to those points, please, let's take a crack at that!

Following your line of thinking I am in agreement, even if it isn't the court of owls I feel like the villain would be focused on the wealthy elites. Which, in the story, they were more or less nameless so there is a lot of room to adapt. The whole talons thing could more or less be scrapped in favour of other rogues if they want or you could still have the idea of the talon some how. Even in BTAS you had characters like Roland Dagget and ferris Boyle that weren't mobsters but corrupt corporate individuals.

I feel like with Reeves' love of the long Halloween and dark victory, coupled with batman 66, he wants to get to the main rogues and the rise of the freak villains, which he has said multiple times that we are witnessing the villain origin stories. One way to get there is to show how this deep corruption in Gotham eventually leads to that.

 

[C Prometheus]

Following your line of thinking I am in agreement, even if it isn't the court of owls I feel like the villain would be focused on the wealthy elites. Which, in the story, they were more or less nameless so there is a lot of room to adapt. The whole talons thing could more or less be scrapped in favour of other rogues if they want or you could still have the idea of the talon some how. Even in BTAS you had characters like Roland Dagget and ferris Boyle that weren't mobsters but corrupt corporate individuals.

I feel like with Reeves' love of the long Halloween and dark victory, coupled with batman 66, he wants to get to the main rogues and the rise of the freak villains, which he has said multiple times that we are witnessing the villain origin stories. One way to get there is to show how this deep corruption in Gotham eventually leads to that.

Exactly. I think Reeves is marrying all of those stories together to showcase how by the end of this saga, the old ways of crime in Gotham City that we would see from Carmine Falcone, Oz or the Court of Owls all eventually get supplanted and overtaken by a new generation of criminals- the Rogues Gallery. The Freaks.

 

[DKDetective]

Yes, and all of that absolute fits with what the Court of Owls are and what they represent in the world today.

I want to ask, since I get the impression folks have been ignoring this point a lot for the past week, if you're looking at all of these quotes from Reeves with a keen eye and noticing the consistent pattern and points he's making about Part 2- that the film revolves around a mystery concerning a "deeper corruption" from what Bruce unearthed in Part 1 and that the way these crimes/violence, social disconnect and Reeves' allusions to actors creating disinformation and division and how that all relates to a "larger picture."

I keep saying it- It might not be the Court of Owls. There are other options. But the options that all come to mind here otherwise feel ill fit for the world Reeves is making here with his version of Gotham City in a way that the Court of Owls seem to match quite well.

So if anyone has counterarguments to those points, please, let's take a crack at that!

No, it doesn't. When it was first mentioned that Reeves intended to delve deeper into the corruption in Part II, I fully admit that it sounded like there was a good chance that the Court was on the table for Part II despite my own preference otherwise.

However, those quotes you posted actually makes me more inclined to believe that they are not involved in a major way. The Court is anything, but morally grey. They are a parody (albeit a very timely one) of the evils of the super rich in our world, controlling everything from their Eyes Wide Shut masked orgy club. That is about as black and white as it gets.

Reeves had given several interviews where he discusses not wanting to do another Batman origin story, but instead an origin of Batman's rogues gallery. I don't think it is any coincidence that the ending of The Batman basically sets up the power vacuum scenario from Dark Victory. Reeves has said that the plan has changed a little because the plot of The Penguin (ie. Oz' rise to kingpin) was supposed to be part of the story of Part II originally.

What this says to me is that the Penguin is about the death of the mob and traditional organized crime, setting up The Batman Part II to deal with the birth of the Freaks/Supervillains. The Penguin and its viral marketing is already hinting at inmates being released from Arkham in the aftermath of the flood.

The moral greyness comes in here, if like Edward and Selina, it is clear that the villains on the rise and whom Batman has to combat are in fact victims of the corruption in Gotham. The poor, the desperate, people driven mad by tainted drops or what have you, etc. The moral greyness comes in if Bruce can't fix these people or more of them from coming out of the woodwork with his fists because the state of Gotham is creating more and more of them and they are only victims of bigger, more insidious systemic issues. The resolution is Bruce realizing he needs to be Bruce Wayne as well as Batman and build a better Gotham.

That was the main theme of Loeb and Sale's Ghosts from Haunted Knight, which just so happens to be a Christmas Carol homage. Given that Part II is set at Christmas, I think there is more evidence of Reeves continuing to mine Loeb/Sale stories and his love of the classic rogues gallery from the 60s series.

 

[C Prometheus]

No, it doesn't. When it was first mentioned that Reeves intended to delve deeper into the corruption in Part II, I fully admit that it sounded like there was a good chance that the Court was on the table for Part II despite my own preference otherwise.

However, those quotes you posted actually makes me more inclined to believe that they are not involved in a major way. The Court is anything, but morally grey. They are a parody (albeit a very timely one) of the evils of the super rich in our world, controlling everything from their Eyes Wide Shut masked orgy club. That is about as black and white as it gets.

Reeves had given several interviews where he discusses not wanting to do another Batman origin story, but instead an origin of Batman's rogues gallery. I don't think it is any coincidence that the ending of The Batman basically sets up the power vacuum scenario from Dark Victory. Reeves has said that the plan has changed a little because the plot of The Penguin (ie. Oz' rise to kingpin) was supposed to be part of the story of Part II originally.

What this says to me is that the Penguin is about the death of the mob and traditional organized crime and the birth of the Freaks/Supervillains. The Penguin and its viral marketing is already hinting at inmates being released from Arkham in the aftermath of the flood.

The moral greyness comes in here, if like Edward and Selina, it is clear that the villains on the rise and whom Batman has to combat are in fact victims of the corruption in Gotham. The poor, the desperate, people driven mad by tainted drops or what have you, etc. The moral greyness comes in if Bruce can't fix these people or more of them from coming out of the woodwork because the state of Gotham is creating more and more of them and they are only victims of bigger, more insidious systemic issues. The resolution is Bruce realizing he needs to be Bruce Wayne as well as Batman and build a better Gotham.

That was the main theme of Loeb and Sale's Ghosts from Haunted Knight, which just so happens to be a Christmas Carol homage. Given that Part II is set at Christmas, I think there is more evidence of Reeves continuing to mine Loeb/Sale stories and his love of the classic rogues gallery from the 60s series.

Correct, the Court of Owls are not at all morally gray! Same as how Carmine Falcone was not at all morally gray.

The point is that, if the Court of Owls are in the film and are the core mystery at play for Bruce, they themselves are the root cause that is pressuring and leading other characters, other Rogues Gallery characters, into these more morally gray scenarios. Same as what we learned about Edward and Selina in the first film from Falcone. Because those characters will almost certainly be victims of the actions that the Court pursue to maintain their status of power.

And again, there's that other quote that has to be considered here from Reeves' interview with Esquire:

The intense division that there is right now. On the one hand, you say it’s a thing going on in the United States—and obviously Gotham is an American city—but really it’s worldwide. There’s just tremendous division, the way that the world gets its information, its news. Everybody is in their own silo. That sense of the environment of today, where it’s just very easy for people to be completely separate and at complete odds—that’s definitely one of the things that we’re looking at in Gotham. Some of that is just the way that society is, but some of that is intentional—and to the degree that that’s intentional, and how that fits into the larger picture of what the motivations behind that might be, that’s one of the things that we’re exploring as well.

In order for there to be an intentional party shaping this division and misinformation and that all fitting into "the larger picture," that all strongly implies the presence of an antagonistic force that is not at all morally gray.

I don't disagree with you about the other points you're making here and I think they're on the right track too. But it isn't at all impossible to tell that story in a scenario where the Court of Owls are the lead antagonists tying everything together.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

The thing about the Court Of Owls is that it doesn't seem like a problem Batman can solve, because they can out-Batman Batman. They wear masks and are completely mysterious, and their Talon's also can operate in the shadows while wearing a winged masked costume. They are the perfect enemy for a superhero who uses a theatrical boogyman persona to intimidate the bad guys.

But Bruce Wayne and Wayne Enterprises taking on a public face to rally Gotham and rebuild it, that could be a way for Bruce to combat the influence of them. Putting himself out there as Bruce Wayne while the Court hide in the shadows manipulating things behind the scenes would be an interesting contrast.

 

[BatLobster]

Reeves had given several interviews where he discusses not wanting to do another Batman origin story, but instead an origin of Batman's rogues gallery. I don't think it is any coincidence that the ending of The Batman basically sets up the power vacuum scenario from Dark Victory. Reeves has said that the plan has changed a little because the plot of The Penguin (ie. Oz' rise to kingpin) was supposed to be part of the story of Part II originally.

What this says to me is that the Penguin is about the death of the mob and traditional organized crime, setting up The Batman Part II to deal with the birth of the Freaks/Supervillains. The Penguin and its viral marketing is already hinting at inmates being released from Arkham in the aftermath of the flood.

I’m not sure I see The Penguin’s rise marking the death of the traditional mob. The way this version of Oz is characterized, there’s nothing about him that represents the “freak” really. He’s underestimated and not afraid to get his hands dirty, but at the end of the day this version still represents the base worldview of the traditional mobster (at least so far). Albeit a more reckless, quirky one. That hilarious “GTF outta heah” to the Riddler supporter on the train says a lot on how he views himself in comparison to the freaks.

A bigger reason that I don’t think they should make the second movie about ‘escalation’ and the transition from traditional mob to freaks though, is that it feels too close to TDK territory, which was essentially all about that. Sure, you can argue that we never got to see the true “rise of the freaks” with a fleshed out rogues gallery and everything in the Nolanverse, but that’s still essentially what The Joker and all the chaos he unleashed was meant to represent. I think the whole ‘deeper corruption’ thing presents an opportunity to do something different, especially in terms of how you broaden the scope of the story. Mind you, The Joker IS going to be in this movie regardless whatever the main story is. Probably playing the wild card that he always does, even if it’s more scheming in the background.

That’s the thing, I feel like we’re all thinking too small. I think when it comes to figuring out the story of this movie I suspect it’s more of a “yes and” rather than just an adaptation of this or that particular story or character. A benefit of the mystery detective angle is you can weave a lot of seemingly disparate threads together and do a lot of exposition via different characters that eventually all adds up to a larger plot. Especially when Warner Bros. is letting you do 3 hour runtimes.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Well, well, well...

Definitely The Court of Owls. I'd be shocked if that isn't the plan.

 

[solidsnake86]

Honestly, it's just great to have these types of discussions again and whatever Reeves chooses, I'm confident it will be a great story, even if it's something like the court which I'm not entirely on board with.

It's also exciting that the penguin is doing well, as long as it maintains the momentum, I think HBO was right to ask for marquee characters instead of saving it for the film's. Hopefully we can see more tv series and, this may give them the confidence to look back into those solo films for the villains that were rumoured a few years back

One thing I will say, the more this universe gets established and is accepted by the general audience, the harder it's going to be to create a second DCU batman.

 

[Johnny Frost]

It seems pretty clear to me that Bruce's "awakening moment" will be him realizing that Batman is not enough, and that he can also help the city as Bruce Wayne and be a philanthropist after seeing how corruption and poverty creates this violent environment in Gotham

Bruce has a similar arc in volume 3 of Earth One, I can see Matt replacing Jessica Dent with Real Bella, he basically already gave a lot of Jessica's characteristics to Bella anyway.

 

[Kane52630]

It seems pretty clear to me that Bruce's "awakening moment" will be him realizing that Batman is not enough, and that he can also help the city as Bruce Wayne and be a philanthropist after seeing how corruption and poverty creates this violent environment in Gotham

Bruce has a similar arc in volume 3 of Earth One, I can see Matt replacing Jessica Dent with Real Bella, he basically already gave a lot of Jessica's characteristics to Bella anyway.

That would also explain why he's not gonna be in the Penguin show.

 

[Johnny Frost]

That would also explain why he's not gonna be in the Penguin show.

The post ended up being deleted for some reason, but there was a post on Penguin's Instagram account in which in the background there was a newspaper page implying that Wayne donated money for the reconstruction of the city.

 

[Mindreaper21]

I’m thinking that these things are supposed to be released at a certain time and this was a flub on their part. It looks like something that would probably show up on the rataalada website.

 

[Kane52630]

Oh it's confirmed.

 

[Boom]

Primary or secondary is the question.

 

[Kane52630]

Ah my mistake, that video was from last year. Whoops.

 

[Sawyer]

Ah my mistake, that video was from last year. Whoops.

 

[FilmNerdJamie]

It's already canceled. Why else would Reeves stammer and stumble over that question about the Court. He's done in this town I tell you. Done.

 

[Lily Adler]

I wouldn’t mind the Court of Owls at all and I’m sure Reeves could do something great with it, but it would be deeply funny to me if it ends up that you’re all way off from what Part II actually ends up being.

Mr. Freeze turns sunken Gotham into a tundra where he rules from his ice fortress.