I'm Reading Your Stuff: General News and Discussion Thread

[OnLeatherWings]

What barrier? You are acting like people can't take 3 seconds to think after watching a trailer. This isn't 1996 people have access to the answers to any possible questions they might have...and 99% of them won't even bother to worry about it.

I think you are way overthinking this.

I have met too many people who ask me why Batman isn't in the MCU to put stock in their attention span for two Batmen.

Batman is not immune to fatigue, either.

 

[dhandler01]

Exactly. And while people are concerned that Hush would be too similar to Riddler, I don't see why that same sentiment isn't shared with the Court of Owls. Just because the Renewal Project conspirators didn't have a flashy name or iconography doesn't change the fact that the basic concept is the same. You're getting yet another group of powerful Gothamites pulling the strings behind the scenes. Doesn't sound all that exciting.

This is exactly why I didn't want either of those story beats if you ask me honestly. That (Massive Conspiracy Behind the Conspiracy) stuff is just played out. (and as a Jew I tend to get a bit squeemish with the "Big Rich Cabal Behind it All" Trope not going to lie) And well...I never got the appeal to Hush. The look was okay but the entire story was sort of just half baked. We dont need a character that is basically the "there but for the grace of God goes I" for Bruce Wayne. We know what he could have been because he himself struggles with it all the time. And Reeves already did that with Riddler anyways in a much more interesting way.

 

[dhandler01]

I have met too many people who ask me why Batman isn't in the MCU to put stock in their attention span for two Batmen.

Batman is not immune to fatigue, either.

I have literally met none.

And again...that has zero to do with fatigue anyways.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Wrestling fans do the same thing. And they get really angry and insufferable when their fantasy booking isn't how it plays out and then blames the powers that be that they didn't do things the way they (the fans) decided it should be done even though The Booker is the guy writing the story and knows what beats to tell. Its painful to deal with sometimes...

Having knowledge of a creative situation doesn't make it automatically a good idea. Vince McMahon and Zack Snyder showed us that.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Man, some of you guys are very sensitive when it comes to this era of Batman.

Bottom line is, this is all uncharted territory. And in a time where the genre is on decline, I think there's a good chance the market for Batman could get oversaturated and the GA is growing apathetic, which could also impact Batman.

Shrug.

If that concern ruffles some feathers, so be it.

You can have the opposite take. That's totally fine. I'm just more cautious than optimistic.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Man, some of you guys are very sensitive when it comes to this era of Batman.

Bottom line is, this is all uncharted territory. And in a time where the genre is on decline, I think there's a good chance the market for Batman could get oversaturated and the GA is growing apathetic, which could also impact Batman.

Shrug.

If that concern ruffles some feathers, so be it.

You can have the opposite take. That's totally fine. I'm just more cautious than optimistic.

No dog in this fight. But I do think Batman, a lot like Spider-Man, has shown to be fatigue proof, if he's done well. Or precieved done well by general audiences. IPs that have a legacy and current footprint as large as Batman have just show a resiliency others don't have.

 

[donuts]

So what? Let's just see how it pans out. Has nothing to do with being sensitive.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

No dog in this fight. But I do think Batman, a lot like Spider-Man, has shown to be fatigue proof, if he's done well. Or precieved done well by general audiences. IPs that have a legacy and current footprint as large as Batman have just show a resiliency others don't have.

I don't agree with that. He was the main marketing push behind The Flash that bombed. His presence couldn't save his DCEU films.

But aside from that - I point to 2022. Batman's solo film was bested by a middling Black Panther sequel, and a mixed reviewed Doctor Strange film, by about $200M. He barely beat Thor: Love and Thunder. That doesn't scream 'fatigue proof'.

Will a the DCU Batman or Reeves' Batman bomb? No. But he is not immune to fatigue and I can imagine these films causing each other to have some form of diminishing returns either from fatigue, confusion from the GA, people thinking it's not necessary, etc.

So what? Let's just see how it pans out. Has nothing to do with being sensitive.

Sure - we'll see how it pans out. But if just waiting and seeing how something pans out is the approach - why have a forum until release day for anything at all?

Speculation and prediction is the game.

 

[donuts]

So what again?

Comparisons don't make The Batman less of a success.

It was a hit, very well received (was a great movie for me), and a sequel is heading towards pre-production.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Comparisons don't make The Batman less of a success.

Of course not - I'm just making the point that if the once unstoppable MCU was doing better than our Batman just 3 years ago and is now suffering diminishing BO returns not long after, maybe nothing is safe from 'fatigue' - even Batman.

I don't think Batman is immune. I don't even think Spider-Man is, either.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't agree with that. He was the main marketing push behind The Flash that bombed. His presence couldn't save his DCEU films.

But aside from that - I point to 2022. Batman's solo film was bested by a middling Black Panther sequel, and a mixed reviewed Doctor Strange film, by about $200M. He barely beat Thor: Love and Thunder. That doesn't scream 'fatigue proof'.

Will a the DCU Batman or Reeves' Batman bomb? No. But he is not immune to fatigue and I can imagine these films causing each other to have some form of diminishing returns either from fatigue, confusion from the GA, people thinking it's not necessary, etc.


Sure - we'll see how it pans out. But if just waiting and seeing how something pans out is the approach - why have a forum until release day for anything at all?

Speculation and prediction is the game.

I see you're just gonna ignore the well received part of my argument.

1. The Flash bombed because it was a Flash movie in the DCEU which audiences had already given up on and was led by a toxic actor.

2. The Batman made 770m heavy into the pandemic era, with a 45 day window that people were told before release would see it on HBO Max incredibly soon. Even still, it had good legs.

3. MOM's money was all upfront do to coming off the nostalgia bomb that was No Way Home.

4. Black Panther 2 fell off a cliff from the first while still riding the decent MCU wave and that it has a cultural relevance to a demo that doesn't always check out genre movies in great numbers. We saw this with Sinners this very year.

5. In what world is 770m not fatigue proof? That's a lot of money for a franchise that was thrown to wolves for a decade. Batman Begins didn't get to half of that. Want to guess how many movies have made more then that since the pandemic? I believe it's less then 25. It would be #5 currently this year, even as it came out at the tail end of the deep pandemic era and wouldn't have even more staggering inflation to boost it.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I’m a filthy centrist on the matter when it comes to box office, but I don’t really think The Flash is a good example because it really isn’t a Batman movie. I understand they marketed it around him but it also has zero crossover with any of what seems to make the GA respond to Batman. It also had toxic word of mouth.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I’m a filthy centrist on the matter when it comes to box office, but I don’t really think The Flash is a good example because it really isn’t a Batman movie. I understand they marketed it around him but it also has zero crossover with any of what seems to make the GA respond to Batman. It also had toxic word of mouth.

There are two type of film goers. Those who spend their time stalking movies online and those who look at the poster and RT to decide whether they feel like it that day.

The Flash failed on both of those fronts.

 

[Boom]

It was a catastrophically awful movie.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It was a catastrophically awful movie.

And James Gunn loved it!

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I see you're just gonna ignore the well received part of my argument.

1. The Flash bombed because it was a Flash movie in the DCEU which audiences had already given up on.

Right - but I remember these same conversations that Batman's presence was going to 'save' the film. Even WB seemed to think so.

2. The Batman made 770m heavy into the pandemic era, with a 45 day window that people were told before release would see it on HBO Max incredibly soon. Even still, it had good legs.

It did well. I know.

I just don't see how The Batman making $770M in a year where 6 other films did even better is a sign of fatigue-proof, though.

Fatigue-proof franchises don't exist at all, IMO. Even the Jurassic World series is gonna start seeing diminishing returns eventually. We even saw it with the almighty Star Wars. MCU.

Batman is not safe, especially if you put two simultaneous franchises of him so close to each other. It's a move never before done - so saying it could go either way is pretty valid.

I'm on the side that we likely will see some diminishing returns. How much? Can't say.

I have to wonder if the next Spider-Man would be looking at less money if it wasn't an ensemble story with Hulk/Punisher and so on.

5. In what world is 770m not fatigue proof? That's a lot of money for a franchise that was thrown to wolves for a decade. Batman Begins didn't get to half of that.

Almost as if Batman has had a history of not being immune to diminishing returns.


You're conflating me saying Batman is not fatigue-proof with saying Batman will someday flop. Loss of interest doesn't mean failure.

We're also talking about something that has not yet happened to a franchise character; two motion picture versions of the same character in separate universes.

Me thinking it's a risky move is not beyond the pale; WB clearly have had concerns themselves. It's clear that there's been debate behind closed doors for quite a long time about merging Reeves' Batman with DC or not. Even Reeves' was reluctant up until recently to say definitively that it's staying separate. His vague comments on the subject for quite awhile was throwing red-meat to the 'MeRgE!!!!' crowd.

So yes, it's still a risk. Even for Batman. We'll see how it plays out.

 

[donuts]

Guys, sooner or later a Batman movie might flop.

Batman Returns wasn't a flop, but underperformed, for example. Batman & Robin was a flop.

Happens.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Right - but I remember these same conversations that Batman's presence was going to 'save' the film. Even WB seemed to think so.

Oh, so you read stupid people online and are using that as a barometer?

I remember fears it might save it. Thankfully it burned. It was also a FLASH movie.

It did well. I know.

I just don't see how The Batman making $770M in a year where 6 other films did even better is a sign of fatigue-proof, though.

Fatigue-proof franchises don't exist at all, IMO. Even the Jurassic World series is gonna start seeing diminishing returns eventually. We even saw it with the almighty Star Wars. MCU.

Batman is not safe, especially if you put two simultaneous franchises of him so close to each other. It's a move never before done - so saying it could go either way is pretty valid.

I'm on the side that we likely will see some diminishing returns.

I have to wonder if the next Spider-Man would be looking at less money if it wasn't an ensemble story with Hulk/Punisher and so on.

Serious question are you reading what's being written? If it's good, no fatigue will set in.

Jurassic World is a perfect example. Because in a year where China was no longer the force it was, it basically got to a similar number around the rest of the world as the awful Dominion. It did that even after Dominion was absolute crap and very little time on PLFs. Why? Because people liked it.

Almost as if Batman has had a history of not being immune to diminishing returns.


You're conflating me saying Batman is not fatigue-proof with saying Batman will someday flop. Loss of interest doesn't mean failure.

We're also talking about something that has not yet happened to a franchise character; two motion picture versions of the same character in separate universes.

Me thinking it's a risky move is not beyond the pale; WB clearly have had concerns themselves. It's clear that there's been debate behind closed doors for quite a long time about merging Reeves' Batman with DC or not. Even Reeves' was reluctant up until recently to say definitively that it's staying separate. His comments for quite awhile was throwing red-meat to the 'MeRgE!!!!' crowd.

So yes, it's still a risk. Even for Batman. We'll see how it plays out.

Because people wrongly hated Batman and Robin. But as Begins showed, give them stuff they like, and not only will you get legs, you'll get rewarded with the sequel.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I’m actually very curious how the audience responds to a cartoonier Batman movie in the DCU style. My long standing suspicious is that, for all of our almost universal exhaustion with grounded grittiness, the perception Batman is the dark edgy grounded big boy hero is a huge part of why he consistently breaks out even to people who don’t like superhero stuff.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I’m actually very curious how the audience responds to a cartoonier Batman movie in the DCU style. My long standing suspicious is that, for all of our almost universal exhaustion with grounded grittiness, the perception Batman is the dark edgy grounded big boy hero is a huge part of why he consistently breaks out even to people who don’t like superhero stuff.

I agree. It's the same for Bond. Could I go for another Roger Moore style adventure? Yeah. I like many different versions of Bond. Do I think audiences much prefer the Nolan style energy of the Craig era? Without question. He hadn't had a box office run like that since Connery.

 

[dhandler01]

Having knowledge of a creative situation doesn't make it automatically a good idea. Vince McMahon and Zack Snyder showed us that.

True...but the fans make them look like Shakespeare. Fans are basically McRapey and Edgelorder with no filter.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Oh, so you read stupid people online and are using that as a barometer?

Why the hostility? Jeez. Also, 'stupid people' are still buying or not buying tickets.

Serious question are you reading what's being written? If it's good, no fatigue will set in.

We've seen quality films flop in the last 5 years. Thunderbolts was a great MCU film - most who saw it agree to that. It bombed. Years ago, even the middling MCU films hit $1B.

This is why I say no film franchise/character is immune to lesser returns.

Jurassic World is a perfect example. Because in a year where China was no longer the force it was, it basically got to a similar number around the rest of the world as the awful Dominion. It did that even after Dominion was absolute crap and very little time on PLFs. Why? Because people liked it.

You just made the case that if a film is good, it will succeed. I don't think most people will argue the Jurassic films have been good for a long time.

In short; a film series consistently doing great at the BO is far more complex than simply 'being good'.

But as Begins showed, give them stuff they like, and not only will you get legs, you'll get rewarded with the sequel.

Begins' box-office didn't do as well as its quality suggested it should've.

 

[dhandler01]

Man, some of you guys are very sensitive when it comes to this era of Batman.

Bottom line is, this is all uncharted territory. And in a time where the genre is on decline, I think there's a good chance the market for Batman could get oversaturated and the GA is growing apathetic, which could also impact Batman.

Shrug.

If that concern ruffles some feathers, so be it.

You can have the opposite take. That's totally fine. I'm just more cautious than optimistic.

I dont think we are sensitive...you made a point and we made a counterpoint. That is what a discussion is

 

[Boom]

October is two years out from release and would be a great time to announce the cinematographer.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

October is two years out from release and would be a great time to announce the cinematographer.

Michael Seresin coming out of retirement prayer circle.