The Dark Knight In Heath We Trust: A Ledgerbration: The TDK Joker Appreciation Thread

[BatmanFanatic]

To me, though I may be wrong, this comes across as though you've not even seen the film "Capote"...

Yes you are in fact wrong, way to jump to conclusions. Not only have I seen Capote, I've seen it more than once, as I watched it again with the directors commentary on. I hated it even more the second time. It was one of the most boring, slow, melodramatic movies I've ever seen. Yes that's just my opinion, but it IS an informed opinion as not only did I see it (sorry to have wasted those hours of my time) but I also saw it while listening to the director explain it!

In my opinion, the only reason Heath didn't win for Brokeback is because the Academy is conservative and a movie about a gay cowboy romance could never actually win best picture. They thought they were being very "daring" and "forward-thinking" by just giving it ANY recognition.

Let me remind everyone that this is the same Academy that did not give the best actor and best actress Oscars to black people for the first time until only a few years ago! *shudder*

 

[Crook]

Like I said, a very fine impersonation. Impersonating however, is not acting. Not to me anyway. Heath wasn't pretending to be a person who had previously existed, he didn't have the luxury of studying video tapes and copying voices and manerisms. He had to make this wild character out of nothing, with all his extremes and yet make him seem so real and believable.

Curious, where exactly do you draw the line of imitation and acting? Especially when the performance is born from an existing person?

In my opinion, the only reason Heath didn't win for Brokeback is because the Academy is conservative and a movie about a gay cowboy romance could never actually win best picture. They thought they were being very "daring" and "forward-thinking" by just giving it ANY recognition.

While certainly not as overt, "Midnight Cowboy" got recognition. Won the main awards too.

Let me remind everyone that this is the same Academy that did not give the best actor and best actress Oscars to black people for the first time until only a few years ago! *shudder*

I'ma be honest. Aside from the recent awarded performances and Denzel in Malcolm X, I have not been impressed by the roles of black actors in the past decade or so. Certainly not award-worthy. Of course, there will be exceptions, such as Sidney Poitier.

I don't think it's entirely the fault of the Academy, as much as it is the lack of good roles played by black actors.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

Now that's funny.

"Brokeback Mountain" came out two and a half years ago, and views towards homosexuality have yet to really change in this country. Things are still the same. Heath Ledger's performance as Enis Del Mar didn't take the nation by storm, nor did it start a revolution. And, the queer community doesn't really accept the role as all that 'groundbreaking,' considering there were countless other movies with gay characters to come before it. It was mainstream, and accepted as a mainstream film, and that's about it.

I didn't say everyone in the US suddenly thought being gay was acceptable after the film came out, but I know that in my own life, going to a community college at the time with a bunch of country kids who were mostly raised to think that homosexuality was wrong, people did talk about the movie and some were able to speak up and say things like "well even though it was about gay men it was a really beautiful love story. I really liked it." in front of their homophobic classmates. And I think the fact that so many people were talking about this movie and that it got a "surprise" Oscar nod made it more okay for people to discuss the subject while at the same time showing people in urban areas like Seattle how much homophobia exists in the nation when there were death threats and such on the lives of the actors by that crazy baptist church whos name I forgot... you know it just brought it all into the main stream and I think it did progress the issue by showing gay men as human beings and not jokes or steriotypes or freaks.

And I think all of this would not have happened without really touching and committed performances by the lead actors, and it was far more impressive to me than anything I saw in Capote. *yawn*

I liked all of the performances which won this year. And I liked most of the performances which won last year. I think the Academy gets it right more often than not.

I donno about that. They love looking good. They love giving Oscars and nods to films that have "impressive" and "epic sounding" names, they love giving Oscars to people who should have gotten one earlier but don't necessarily deserve it at the moment, those "apology" Oscars, they completely ignore comedies, action films, blockbusters, most genre films, foreign films get their own category as if foreign films aren't just "films..." (Why not have a "best black film" category? GRR) I swear the Oscars are only concerned with making themselves look good and are afraid to compete in a broader market than US-Studio-Made-Epic-Dramas.

Yes, it was even better than 'Batman Begins,' as far as I'm concerned.

Gasp - there are movies better than BB? *lol* *end sarcasm* =)

 

[baronghede]

"Crash" gets worse every time I see it. "Good Night and Good Luck" was the best film of 2005, imo.

Yeah, I liked Crash when I saw it.
Then I saw it again and was like "Eh."
Then I saw it again and hated it.

 

[The Senator]

Yes you are in fact wrong, way to jump to conclusions. Not only have I seen Capote, I've seen it more than once, as I watched it again with the directors commentary on. I hated it even more the second time. It was one of the most boring, slow, melodramatic movies I've ever seen. Yes that's just my opinion, but it IS an informed opinion as not only did I see it (sorry to have wasted those hours of my time) but I also saw it while listening to the director explain it!

In my opinion, the only reason Heath didn't win for Brokeback is because the Academy is conservative and a movie about a gay cowboy romance could never actually win best picture. They thought they were being very "daring" and "forward-thinking" by just giving it ANY recognition.

Let me remind everyone that this is the same Academy that did not give the best actor and best actress Oscars to black people for the first time until only a few years ago! *shudder*

I don't think homophobia had anything to do with Ledger's loss. Truman Capote was gay, and Philip Seymour Hoffman won for his portrayal of the author.

As I said, 'Brokeback Mountain' was a good movie, but it wasn't groundbreaking at all. It seemed to feed some of the negativity itself. I know I personally felt that Jack Twist had a creepy, sexual-predator vibe going for the first half of the film. I know many in the queer community feel that it fed into various stereotypes as well, from the 'sexual predator' aspect to the whole 'gay cowboy' plot. While the performances were great, the plot was so-so, and in the end, it just didn't do much to revolutionize opinions on homosexuality in this country.

Now, I loved the film. I think Ledger's performance was outstanding. But I think 'Brokeback's' overall loss had to do with it being a so-so film, rather than blatant homophobia on behalf of the Academy.

Also, Sidney Poitier was the first black man to win a best actor Oscar, in 1963.

 

[Schlosser85]

I thought Brokeback Mountain was a well-done, heartfelt film and that Jake Gyllenhaal, Michelle Williams, Anne Hathaway, and above all Heath Ledger were all excellent.

That said, gay movie characters who are happy, successful, everyday people who just happen to be gay do more to bring homosexuality into mainstream acceptance than miserably repressed homosexuals like Ennis del Mar. If anything, someone like Ennis could be seen as feeding into a societal view that homosexuality is some kind of burden that hinders you from having a happy, productive life.

The key isn't to stress our sexuality, it's to show that in 99% of the ways you can name, we're not any different from anyone else.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

I'ma be honest. Aside from the recent awarded performances and Denzel in Malcolm X, I have not been impressed by the roles of black actors in the past decade or so. Certainly not award-worthy. Of course, there will be exceptions, such as Sidney Poitier.

I don't think it's entirely the fault of the Academy, as much as it is the lack of good roles played by black actors.

Wow. You must either be joking, or you just avoid movies with black people in them. That has to be the most offensive justification for the injustice of the Academy I've ever heard... "well black actors just haven't done anything Oscar worthy in the past 80 years of film...."

Now, to atone, why don't you go to the nearest blockbuster and rent Beloved, Amistad, The Color Purple, Glory, Do The Right Thing, The Josephine Baker Story, Roots, In The Heat Of The Night, The Jackie Robinson Story, Hoop Dreams, Ali, and The Persuit Of Happiness, just to name a few.

Nothing Oscar worthy by done by black actors... SHAAAAAAME!

 

[BatmanFanatic]

Also, Sidney Poitier was the first black man to win a best actor Oscar, in 1963.

Yah, and it only took them 50 years (give or take a few) to let THAT happen again. Halle Berry was the first black woman EVER to win an Oscar in freakn' 2002!!! 2002 people! *shakes head*

 

[Crook]

As I said, 'Brokeback Mountain' was a good movie, but it wasn't groundbreaking at all. It seemed to feed some of the negativity itself. I know I personally felt that Jack Twist had a creepy, sexual-predator vibe going for the first half of the film. I know many in the queer community feel that it fed into various stereotypes as well, from the 'sexual predator' aspect to the whole 'gay cowboy' plot. While the performances were great, the plot was so-so, and in the end, it just didn't do much to revolutionize opinions on homosexuality in this country.

I'm honestly befuddled that anyone wouldn't consider the film at least somewhat revolutionary.

What film, besides this, featured 2 homosexual characters as the headliners? Moreover, one that is played straight (no pun intended) in the depictions of their lifestyle and hidden love? You take the gay cowboys and homosexual lust out of the equation, and what you get is a traditional love story. Which is essentially in the same vain of Romeo & Juliet by utilizing star-crossed lovers who fall to tragedy. Finally....it was good and nearly universally loved by critics.

I mean...c'mon. NONE of that is impressive?

 

[The Senator]

I didn't say everyone in the US suddenly thought being gay was acceptable after the film came out, but I know that in my own life, going to a community college at the time with a bunch of country kids who were mostly raised to think that homosexuality was wrong, people did talk about the movie and some were able to speak up and say things like "well even though it was about gay men it was a really beautiful love story. I really liked it." in front of their homophobic classmates. And I think the fact that so many people were talking about this movie and that it got a "surprise" Oscar nod made it more okay for people to discuss the subject while at the same time showing people in urban areas like Seattle how much homophobia exists in the nation when there were death threats and such on the lives of the actors by that crazy baptist church whos name I forgot... you know it just brought it all into the main stream and I think it did progress the issue by showing gay men as human beings and not jokes or steriotypes or freaks.

Well, naturally, some people would have been persuaded by this film to reverse their opinions on homosexuality. However, I don't think it was enough. And, I must wonder whether many of these folks would have changed their minds even if 'Brokeback' hadn't been released. I just don't think the movie was all that influential, in the grand scheme of things.

I donno about that. They love looking good. They love giving Oscars and nods to films that have "impressive" and "epic sounding" names, they love giving Oscars to people who should have gotten one earlier but don't necessarily deserve it at the moment, those "apology" Oscars, they completely ignore comedies, action films, blockbusters, most genre films, foreign films get their own category as if foreign films aren't just "films..." (Why not have a "best black film" category? GRR) I swear the Oscars are only concerned with making themselves look good and are afraid to compete in a broader market than US-Studio-Made-Epic-Dramas.

I disagree with some of this. I think there are few action movies or comedies worthy of Best Picture. Or any nomination, to be honest. I think it would be downright offensive to have films like "There Will Be Blood" compete with trash like "Transformers," or actors like Daniel Day Lewis compete with celebrities like Shia LeBeouf. I do think that, of the films selected, the Academy picks the best of the best. I saw all five best picture nominees in theaters, and the only film I questioned in the final line up was "Juno." Otherwise, I was satisfied.

Of course, I do agree that some recipients shouldn't win, and that some awards seem apologetic. Jennifer Hudson was wrongfully awarded two years ago. So was Reese Witherspoon the year before that. Sometimes, the best performances are overlooked, but what are you going to do? At the end of the day, it's just an awards ceremony, and the awards are given to Hollywood's elite by Hollywood's elite. Nothing can or will be done to fix it.

 

[Schlosser85]

Now, to atone, why don't you go to the nearest blockbuster and rent Beloved, Amistad, The Color Purple, Glory, Do The Right Thing, The Josephine Baker Story, Roots, In The Heat Of The Night, The Jackie Robinson Story, Hoop Dreams, Ali, and The Persuit Of Happiness, just to name a few.

Denzel Washington did receive an Oscar for Glory, deservedly.

As for impressive black actors, besides Denzel, Morgan Freeman is one of the most reliable actors around period, IMO. And of course you have Sidney Poitier, Forest Whitaker, Samuel L. Jackson, Jeffrey Wright, Djimon Hounsou (underrated), Danny Glover, Thandie Newton, and Oprah Winfrey who only takes a film role once in a very great while but is excellent on the few occasions she does so.

 

[The Senator]

Yah, and it only took them 50 years (give or take a few) to let THAT happen again. Halle Berry was the first black woman EVER to win an Oscar in freakn' 2002!!! 2002 people! *shakes head*

Speaking of poor performances being rewarded, Berry was totally undeserving of that Oscar.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

Speaking of poor performances being rewarded, Berry was totally undeserving of that Oscar.

Well perhaps the Academy just couldn't take any more guilt over it's previous decades of injustice anymore. As I've mentioned they are also really big into "apology" Oscars, and as soon as public opinion turns to "why doesn't so and so have an Oscar already!" they give them one to make up for all the poor judgement in not getting them one earlier.... whether that be a specific person, or a specific type of person.

 

[Schlosser85]

Speaking of poor performances being rewarded, Berry was totally undeserving of that Oscar.

Halle Berry is a bad actress.

 

[Crook]

Wow. You must either be joking, or you just avoid movies with black people in them. That has to be the most offensive justification for the injustice of the Academy I've ever heard... "well black actors just haven't done anything Oscar worthy in the past 80 years of film...."

Now, to atone, why don't you go to the nearest blockbuster and rent Beloved, Amistad, The Color Purple, Glory, Do The Right Thing, The Josephine Baker Story, Roots, In The Heat Of The Night, The Jackie Robinson Story, Hoop Dreams, Ali, and The Persuit Of Happiness, just to name a few.

Nothing Oscar worthy by done by black actors... SHAAAAAAME!

Did you intentionally just skim over where I noted that there will be some "notable exceptions"? I'm more than aware of great performances by black actors. But the ratio of that and performances by white actors is astronomically one-sided, hence why you get so very few nominations in comparison.

This is the same for every minority group as well. Hollywood is WHITE-dominated, and most of the roles go to them. So yes, it absolutely does make sense. It is not to say that white actors are better or whatnot, simply that the numbers are against blacks/asians/latinos/etc.

As for the films you mentioned, umm.....practically all of those were recognized in some form or the other by the Academy, the Golden Globes, and any other awards ceremony. They're not gonna win every single award, obviously, but they did win. They were certainly not ignored as you seem to suggest.

 

[The Senator]

I'm honestly befuddled that anyone wouldn't consider the film at least somewhat revolutionary.

What film, besides this, featured 2 homosexual characters as the headliners? Moreover, one that is played straight (no pun intended) in the depictions of their lifestyle and hidden love? You take the gay cowboys and homosexual lust out of the equation, and what you get is a traditional love story. Which is essentially in the same vain of Romeo & Juliet by utilizing star-crossed lovers who fall to tragedy. Finally....it was good and nearly universally loved by critics.

I mean...c'mon. NONE of that is impressive?

The fact that two gay cowboys were the main characters was somewhat groundbreaking. That's about it to me, really. Otherwise, I don't think it did much to put an end to stereotyping, nor did it really open peoples' eyes to the gay community. The critical reception doesn't really persuade me one way or another; "Iron Man" is the best reviewed movie of the year, but that hasn't revolutionized public opinion of weapons contractors...

 

[The Senator]

Halle Berry is a bad actress.

She was never a good actress. And neither was Reese Witherspoon.

 

[The Senator]

Yah, and it only took them 50 years (give or take a few) to let THAT happen again.

You mean thirty-nine years

 

[babycakes]

Would this be old news by now?

http://empireonline.com.au/news/story.asp?NID=1000002633

I can't wait for TDK, but I am dreading the new wave of crappy gossip, innuendo, half-baked and wildly exaggerated stories about Heath that are bound to come out at the same time, all over again. He's been through enough. While living he had a rough road in his dealings with the paparazzi and such, and I feel like they all got the upper-hand on him in the end. So much for poetic justice. And yes I am bitter about it, for I loved that guy like mad, and he didn't deserve that garbage.

 

[The Senator]

I thought Brokeback Mountain was a well-done, heartfelt film and that Jake Gyllenhaal, Michelle Williams, Anne Hathaway, and above all Heath Ledger were all excellent.

That said, gay movie characters who are happy, successful, everyday people who just happen to be gay do more to bring homosexuality into mainstream acceptance than miserably repressed homosexuals like Ennis del Mar. If anything, someone like Ennis could be seen as feeding into a societal view that homosexuality is some kind of burden that hinders you from having a happy, productive life.

The key isn't to stress our sexuality, it's to show that in 99% of the ways you can name, we're not any different from anyone else.

Agreed.

And as I've said, I can't help but feel that Jack Twist came off as a "sexual predator." His whole character bothered me in that regard. That truly bothered me when I saw it in the theater, and shortly thereafter Gene Shalit came out with that characterization and was publicly ridiculed for it. All the while, I didn't see what the big deal was. It was a spot-on description of the character. So I knew from my first viewing that that aspect of Twist's character wouldn't go over real well with a mainstream audience.

 

[ThePunchLine]

I can't wait for TDK, but I am dreading the new wave of crappy gossip, innuendo, half-baked and wildly exaggerated stories about Heath that are bound to come out at the same time, all over again. He's been through enough. While living he had a rough road in his dealings with the paparazzi and such, and I feel like they all got the upper-hand on him in the end. So much for poetic justice. And yes I am bitter about it, for I loved that guy like mad, and he didn't deserve that garbage.

babycakes, agreed. However that article i posted (could not link directly to it, i posted the text shortly thereafter my original post), had to do with Heath apparently visiting from beyond the grave , showing himself to a producer and Michelle Williams.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

practically all of those were recognized in some form or the other by the Academy, the Golden Globes, and any other awards ceremony. They're not gonna win every single award, obviously, but they did win. They were certainly not ignored as you seem to suggest.

Not in the best actor/best actress category they weren't, not recognized by a WIN. Just a pat on the head.

 

[The Senator]

Well perhaps the Academy just couldn't take any more guilt over it's previous decades of injustice anymore. As I've mentioned they are also really big into "apology" Oscars, and as soon as public opinion turns to "why doesn't so and so have an Oscar already!" they give them one to make up for all the poor judgement in not getting them one earlier.... whether that be a specific person, or a specific type of person.

I think the Academy should be able to take awards away from actors every ten years, and give them to more deserving actors-- even if those actors weren't nominated.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

I think the Academy should be able to take awards away from actors every ten years, and give them to more deserving actors-- even if those actors weren't nominated.

ROFL.

I'd love to see that.

They can call it "Academy Bloopers Night."

 

[babycakes]

babycakes, agreed. However that article i posted (could not link directly to it, i posted the text shortly thereafter my original post), had to do with Heath apparently visiting from beyond the grave , showing himself to a producer and Michelle Williams.

Oh yes!! Sorry, shouldn't have quoted your post---reading that article just reminded me of other things that may be around the bend. This one certainly wasn't trashing him like we've seen the tabloids do.