The Dark Knight In your mind, what IS the origin of this version of the Joker?

[CaptainClown]

Son of the "nice coat" guy.

Marv or from Batman Begins?

 

[Sam18]

Marv or from Batman Begins?

That is up to viewer interpretation.

 

[agentzelda]

First, he's a mass murderer but not a serial killer, so all the issues of profiling probably don't apply, and he wasn't necessarily abused or mistreated: in other words, it is entirely possible not to feel sorry for him, or actually to see him as simply evil, full stop, and not insane (though interestingly, Batman's concluding statement is not "think about it on death row" or "you'll spend forever in maximum security" - it's "you'll spend forever in a padded cell", so Batman clearly thinks he has a few screws loose).

Whether his psychopathy is a function of his disfigurement, or might in some ways have provoked it, is an open question. I tend to think more that it was some sort of gangland/underworld reprisal, but not necessarily in Gotham.

His "whatever doesn't kill you only makes you stranger" is of course a parody of Nietzsche's "that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger". He might also parody another motto: "do onto others as others have done unto you".

I don't see him having inflicted the scars himself. He is masochistic, but not self-destructive.

 

[Bat-Mite]

Falafel guy comes home to find that his wife is scarred. They have no money for surgery because Flass steals it all! Everything happens like how Joker told Rachel.. he scars himself and the wife leaves him. Then Falafel Joker's kids starve to death because they don't like falafel and that's all he has that he can feed them.

To make things even worse, he ends up falling into some chemicals at the falafel factory and gets his skin bleached (hence why he is a lot paler in TDK than he was in Begins)! None of this bad stuff happened to him before Batman came to town, so he blames him. All it takes is one bad day...

 

[Spidey-Sean]

. He put intensive planning into his schemes and takes pride in his abilities...

Joker makes it explicit he isn't a "schemer".

He did talk about ripping off Mob dealers in the past, too.

He was referring to the 60 some million dollars he stole from the bank in the first scene of the movie.

I don't see him having inflicted the scars himself. He is masochistic, but not self-destructive.

What about "HIT ME!" or the time he pulls out a vest full of grenades, or putting the revolver to his own head in an effort to get Harvey Dent to abandon his morality to chance. Even Bale has mentioned repeatedly in interviews that Joker is bent on destruction, even if it means self destruction.

 

[Ziggyman]

Maybe he was an actor...

...Very eccentric, very animated, very theatrical...

Or maybe a writer...That's why he can kind of predict what's gonna happen...Takes into consideration...Variable change!

 

[agentzelda]

He doesn't care whether Batman beats him to death but he's not depressively suicidal. Whatever happens, happens: the means justify the ends but the ends are also important, and they're all about destroying Batman's or Dent's moral compass, not about ending the Joker's own miserable life. That's the distinction. The end of his own life in either case would just be collateral damage, and in other cases, he seems to have pretty good survival instincts. And frankly, in the assassination plot, he seems to have chosen a thug who physically resembles him to stand by him in the honour guard, perhaps realizing in any ensuing confusion, the other guy might get shot and enable him to get away.

There seems to be an insistence, because Alan Moore's immortal Killing Joke was cited as an influence, that this Joker has to be that Joker. But he isn't. Moore's Joker, despite the horrible things he does to Gordon and Barbara, is essentially pitiable (and even self-loathing and remorseful), and Batman still seems to think he's redeemable. There is some influence, in some of the motifs and details, but TDK is hardly based on it. And for that matter it's also influenced by material where the Joker is far less sympathetic, like Arkham Asylum. (In fact, I actually find this Joker more like that one, though not as philosophical, and certainly not as sexually ambiguous.)

However, all that said, even if he doesn't need to have had a pity-inducing past (does anyone watch Pan's Labyrinth and do anything but cheer when Mercedes gives El Capitan half a Chelsea Smile? yes, it's a horrible thing to have done but she's desperate and has to work fast and he is about to torture out of her information that could kill all her loved ones), that doesn't mean he isn't likeable, not in the sense one might like a future best friend, but in the sense that he is captivating: you cannot take your eyes off him, no matter how disfigured he might be or what horrible things he does.

 

[ChrisB]

I loved how he told multiple stories of his scar origins, and Im mad we didnt get to hear what he was going to tell Batman. But I think the story he told Rachel was partly true. He seemed like a guy who was just crazy enough to cut a smile into his own face. I dont think the wife part was true, but I do think he definitely could have carved his own face, just for fun.

 

[Sam18]

Falafel guy comes home to find that his wife is scarred. They have no money for surgery because Flass steals it all! Everything happens like how Joker told Rachel.. he scars himself and the wife leaves him. Then Falafel Joker's kids starve to death because they don't like falafel and that's all he has that he can feed them.

To make things even worse, he ends up falling into some chemicals at the falafel factory and gets his skin bleached (hence why he is a lot paler in TDK than he was in Begins)! None of this bad stuff happened to him before Batman came to town, so he blames him. All it takes is one bad day...

Absolutely brilliant.

 

[Arsh]

I think that I have discovered the true origins of how the Joker got those scars...


ChibiFlix of Deviant Art created a visual representation of the events that occurred:

http://chibiflix.deviantart.com/art/dark-knight-jokers-scars-95629401

Open the box to see it

Spoiler

 

[PyroChamber]

My version of it would be the same as Killing Joke, but instead of becoming the Red Hood he just ends up working for the mob because he's really got nothing else. But he still knows that they're nothing but scam and decides to do deals with others without the mob knowing hence ripping them off. Then the mob ends up finding out about it and they make an example out of him by cutting his face.

 

[ultimatefan]

This Joker I think borrows from a couple of great versions of the comics: first, from Alan Mooré´s Killing Joke quote: "if I´m gonna have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" There´s also the Paul Dini/Bruce Timm story Mad Love, where Joker gets sympathy from Harleen Quinzel - before her Harley Quinn days - by telling a sad story about his past, and then Batman reveals he makes up a lot of stories like that, just like he does in TDK. There´s another Paul Dini story where it´s suggested that Joker could be even not really insane, that he was a gangster who´s been faking to be insane all along.

This Joker is like the birds in the Alfred Hitchcock movie: you don´t really know what´s the origin of this wild behavior, and it´s all the scarier for that.

 

[Doctor Jones]

personaly i have no origin for the joker. always preferred him that way. but if i have to imagine one or rather, who he was before the joker, i think of val kilmer's character from "Heat."

 

[MiniBond]

personnaly I like the second version of the movie with his disfigured wife ....very gloomy !t:t:

 

[batman11]

Joker makes it explicit he isn't a "schemer".

And you believed him? t:

What about "HIT ME!" or the time he pulls out a vest full of grenades, or putting the revolver to his own head in an effort to get Harvey Dent to abandon his morality to chance. Even Bale has mentioned repeatedly in interviews that Joker is bent on destruction, even if it means self destruction.

Yes, but all those events would of occurred at the hands of others. Aside from the grenades, which I doubt he ever planned to pull, the Joker wanted Batman to hit him, Harvey to shoot him. The Joker didn't do plan on doing any of those things himself. He wanted his destruction only when it came at the cost of others, otherwise, what would stop him from committing suicide at any given time?

 

[Zephyr Alexian]

A public accountant who snapped and decided to kill everyone.

 

[chamber-music]

Son of the "nice coat" guy.

Son of falafel cart guy

 

[Armored Avenger]

I think that the origin of the Joker from The Dark Knight is the same as the origin from The Killing Joke, as thats what Heath Ledger was given to read and its also my favourite Joker origin story.

 

[ronny]

For a start, this Joker was a clown beforehand. See those little mannerisms and noises he makes? It's all because of what he is. The clown thing wasn't a convenient image, it is who he is. A psychopathic, mass murdering clown.
He was always insane and yet probably did kids parties and visited hospitals. Sooner or later he does something terrible and escapes fully into the persona, giving himself that lovely smile and wishing to make everybody as happy as him.
Add Batman and he suddenly finds his calling. This grim creature of the night and this gaudy, insane clown. It's such an odd rivalry that he can't resist it.

 

[agentzelda]

And you believed him? t:



Yes, but all those events would of occurred at the hands of others. Aside from the grenades, which I doubt he ever planned to pull, the Joker wanted Batman to hit him, Harvey to shoot him. The Joker didn't do plan on doing any of those things himself. He wanted his destruction only when it came at the cost of others, otherwise, what would stop him from committing suicide at any given time?

Agreed, and only if it will implicate the other person in some moral crisis. After all, he must have pretty good survival instincts: he doesn't seem to have gone too far to ingratiate himself with others, so there must be a fair number of people who could have cheerfully killed him along the way. But he doesn't want someone like Maroni or Gambol to kill him: that's just what they do. With Batman or Dent, though, it's a whole different story.

I also agree with Ronny: he's already clinically deranged even before he becomes "the Joker". The biggest clues are actually subtle ones in the mob meeting scene: his use of bits of the language of psychology/psychiatry, and his reaction to being told he's crazy, his very deliberate repetition that he's not. It's entirely possible he could have done a little time at Arkham already, though I doubt he's supposed to be one of the escaped inmates unless he already had quite a lot of experience in gangland and other criminal activities since he has a really very well developed skill set.

And I agree with ultimatefan that the influence seems to be the variety of stories that have the Joker lying about/telling various stories about his origins.

And I wonder where he learned so much about such a variety of weapons?

 

[The_Joker7895]

Personally, The Killing Joke is really the only origin story of Joker that I can readily accept. I'm kind of with Nolan in the idea that giving Joker a background origin story trivializes him and humanizes something that shouldn't be humanized. I just don't think that it's right to give him an origin, because in a way, both his scar stories make him tragic. Tragedy makes his actions somewhat informed, which kind of undermines the whole concept of Joker being a psychopathic, sociopathic, mass murderer without any motive. To me, any legitimate origin story for Joker, comics or film, informs his actions as the Joer and thus undermines his whole theme of being without higher motive, and just wanting to cause anarchy and chaos for the hell of it.

 

[agentzelda]

The Killing Joke (but then Moore is a genius) humanizes the character without making him tragic; after all, his decision to quit his job and take up something he clearly has no skill for (whether it's comedy or crime), with a pregnant wife at home, can only really be seen as stupid at best, selfish at worst. So even the story he does remember this time around isn't really tragic, just misguided (and we can tell it's a memory that pops into his head from time to time, usually provoked by a visual cue, like the picture of the fat lady at the fair, because there's never a scene suggesting that he tells it to anyone). This allows for a lot more flexibility in his portrayal, and he can plausibly be someone who does genuinely horrific things, whether to prove a point, or just for the hell of it, or because this turns him on in the way (for example) sex might more ordinary people.

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

The way I see it, he was a fairly normal guy, maybe grew up in a rough neighborhood and was smart enough to survive. Maybe not even that. Maybe he was just middle class.

Anyways he pretty much lived his life up until somewhere in his late teens or mid twenties pretty much normally. Going to school, getting a job, etc. But he always knew it was all BS and he just never did anything about it. Sure, maybe an occasional little prank on the establishment or something, but nothing too serious. Not that he wasn't always a little sick though. He was always the kind of guy who just giggled a little bit whenever he saw a school shooting or natural disaster killing people on television.

Eventually just the blandness and hypocrisy of everyday life, not really any event in particular, just became too much for someone like him so he did something rash. Whatever it was he did (kill someone, rob a bank etc), obviously he could not return to a normal life anymore so he did something along the lines of faking his own death. After that he wasn't worried about appearing on anyone's radar for a while so he wandered around for a few years committing random crimes that for the most part were left never solved by the authorities until one day Gotham City was going bananas for this new guy, Batman. He saw this as his chance to step up and show what he could do. Always having been a bit of a prankster he dressed like a clown, called himself The Joker and decides its time to see how worthy of an opponent the Batman could be.

 

[TheDarkVictory]

i personally like the theory, not sure where i heard it, maybe here, that he's a screwed up trust fund kid, bored out of his mind. he goes into a life of crime for a little fun and somewhere along the way snaps completely and develops the joker persona.

i'm interested in whether or not he was the joker before batman, or if batman gave him that "one little push" into complete madness.

 

[Freakzter]

since he's not a true serial killer nor your average mass murderer, he definitely wouldnt have had the 'average criminal history' of bad parents or abusing animals.

you don't get as well versed in the way the underground world and it's criminals work without having spent the majority of your life in it and experiencing it, learning how to get the upper hand in situations and gaining useful know-hows from veteran gangsters.

he was definately born into what he is, not made into it. had he been an idiot, it wouldn't have matter how much abuse he endured as a kid, he would not have magically obtained the brilliant mind of the joker. evil geniuses can most definately thank their genes first and foremost, then secondarily their environment and experiences while growing up. experiences which do NOT have to include abuse, but rather, many instances of unfairness, such as loosing important opportunities or loved ones. The average mind can brush these off and blindly go on living their average, pointless life, but the really smart ones start questioning their own actions and place in life and how they relate to the world and vice versa. like becoming lucid while dreaming, only we call it insanity.