Iron Fist Iron Fist General Discussion Thread - Part 3

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Liam Neeson is an Asian NINJA? Cool!!

From what I remember, Bruce gets trained and never looks back at the Himalayas in Nolan's film
Ninja and Ninjitsu are Japanese terms. He uses their equipment and techniques as part of the basis for his vigilante career in Gotham City. I see other Asians there teaching him how to fight and everything else.
 
Except in one episode, Batman is basically seen as the preferred son and student of his Asian sensei is he not? He's the one with honor unlike his rival, the Japanese ninja who is a traitor to their sensei's teachings.

He's preferred by the teacher, yes, but he still essentially only takes the combat skills from his training. He is shown to have a sense of honor, but the episode sets up the idea that the honor was something he more or less already had, which is why he responded to the teaching better. And, after he leaves, he then supplements what he learns with his own means. He's not dressing himself in a ninja garb, he's not fighting people with asian weapons, he doesn't try to live his life in the way of a martial arts master in Asia etc.

So while this one individual episode does veer into that kind of of white savior-y territory, the rest of the stories are what keep it out of that. If every single TAS episode was constantly referencing that Batman was trying to live the way of ninja or something, that would be another story. But it doesn't.
 
Did...the MCU do the right thing in making the Mandarin at first an Arab terrorist/dictator, then a white bloke who just so happened to have a dragon tattoo?

Honestly, I wonder if the season ends up building up the real Mandarin, since there's apparently a 3rd one...

No, Killian should have been played by an Asian actor.
 
He's preferred by the teacher, yes, but he still essentially only takes the combat skills from his training. He is shown to have a sense of honor, but the episode sets up the idea that the honor was something he more or less already had, which is why he responded to the teaching better. And, after he leaves, he then supplements what he learns with his own means. He's not dressing himself in a ninja garb, he's not fighting people with asian weapons, he doesn't try to live his life in the way of a martial arts master in Asia etc.

So while this one individual episode does veer into that kind of of white savior-y territory, the rest of the stories are what keep it out of that. If every single TAS episode was constantly referencing that Batman was trying to live the way of ninja or something, that would be another story. But it doesn't.
Pretty reaching if you ask me.
 
Ninja and Ninjitsu are Japanese terms. He uses their equipment and techniques as part of the basis for his vigilante career in Gotham City. I see other Asians there teaching him how to fight and everything else.

Again, using their weapons is not the same as trying to adopt parts of another culture. And Batman, in both BB and BTAS using elements of their weapons...but then mostly goes off and does his own thing.

It's one element of his training, not something that his entire character is based around. That's the difference.
 
95% of the audience isn't breaking down the differences or even care. I'd bet 90+ % aren't even aware of the trope.
 
Pretty reaching if you ask me.

Not really. The white savior idea is about the white "savior" coming in and completely adopting another CULTURE as his own. Not just weapons a fighting style, but their culture. Their belief systems, their code of honor, their way of life. The Last Samurai, Avatar, these are white savior movies. Because the white leads literally adopt the culture. Not only that, they then need to be shown as being better at understanding and living by this cultural code than the people who were born into it.

Wolverine does try to adopt Japense samurai culture. The reason he doesn't fall into white savior territory is because he constantly fails at it.

Batman never tried to adopt ninja culture. He just adopted some of their tactics.
 
Ninja and Ninjitsu are Japanese terms. He uses their equipment and techniques as part of the basis for his vigilante career in Gotham City. I see other Asians there teaching him how to fight and everything else.

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. That I am being hypocritical if I don't denounce every instance of racism and cultural appropriation in live action and animated comic book interpretations? Fine. They are all awful. Happy?
 
No, Killian should have been played by an Asian actor.

For the sake of the Mandarin reveal?
I guess...since he was already that far removed from his comic character.
 
No, The real Mandarin should have been played by an Asian actor.
Fixed. Personally I felt Shaun Toub should have played him as a swerve to Tony Stark.

Killian was fine for who played him, but all references to the Mandarin should have been removed or Killian should have removed/relegated to a henchman role.
 
They are hinting that Shang-Chi is in the second half on Iron Fist season 1 along with Steel Serpent as the villain.

And that's maddening to me. Two main antagonists and a supporting character who's popular enough to headline his own series and they're not only not in screened episodes but also kept out of promotional materials like trailers, posters, interviews, etc.

Marvel did all that they could to sabotage this series since it's an afterthought.
 
It's not. It's a problem if you are using Caucasians as replacements for actual Asians, as was the case when Danny was first created in the comics.

Could it be possible that maybe Danny could have been partly inspired by a certain caucasian named Chuck Norris, who at that time had already established himself as an icon in the martial arts field? Heck, look at John Byrne's rendition of Danny in those 70's comics. Looks like Chuck quite a bit.
 
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Apparently Iron Fist reviewers have too much time on their hands.
That's their job and the SJW crowd was banging their drums about this 'controversy' well before the reviews came out. The real question is how 'offended' they actually were and just how egregious the 'savior' trope was if it in fact applies. I would guess you'd get slightly different answers on the record then off. Of course I admit I could be completely wrong about that, we're all half-blind on this one at the moment. Finn did say these issues were addressed 'intelligently' in the show, obviously it wasn't in the first 6.
 
Could it be possible that maybe Danny could have been partly inspired by a certain caucasian named Chuck Norris, who at that time had already established himself as an icon in the martial arts field? Heck, look at John Byrne's rendition of Danny in those 70's comics. Looks like Chuck quite a bit.

The original inspiration was David Carradine in the Kung Fu TV show.
 
As someone who actually watched the first six episodes, there's not this prevalent Mighty Whitey or White Savior angle...so...
 
As someone who actually watched the first six episodes, there's not this prevalent Mighty Whitey or White Savior angle...so...

You got to see the first six episodes? How'd you manage that?

I'm still going to watch the show myself, because even if it is the worst of the netflix bunch, I still can't imagine it'll be as bad as say...Arrow is at it's worst.
 
As someone who actually watched the first six episodes, there's not this prevalent Mighty Whitey or White Savior angle...so...
Good to know. I wasn't expecting anything to match the 'noise'
 
That's their job and the SJW crowd was banging their drums about this 'controversy' well before the reviews came out. The real question is how 'offended' they actually were and just how egregious the 'savior' trope was if it in fact applies. I would guess you'd get slightly different answers on the record then off. Of course I admit I could be completely wrong about that, we're all half-blind on this one at the moment. Finn did say these issues were addressed 'intelligently' in the show, obviously it wasn't in the first 6.

Ah, those horrible Social Justice Warriors like MLK, Thurgood Marshall and Susan B. Anthony. Why do they continue to point out societal inequities that make me uncomfortable? Can't they simply be happy with the way things are?

The casting of a White man in the lead in a show that appears to be largely focused around Asian culture was always going to be a problem. Ill see for myself this week how big a problem it is.
 
You got to see the first six episodes? How'd you manage that?

I'm still going to watch the show myself, because even if it is the worst of the netflix bunch, I still can't imagine it'll be as bad as say...Arrow is at it's worst.

I'm a working reporter and I regularly review film and TV shows. I also reviewed the first six episodes of Iron Fist. Spoiler free so no worries on that.

Netflix has been gracious enough to let me watch the screeners for many of their original programming. However, I could not comment I had seen them or talk about what I saw in general until March 8.

My Iron Fist review

Just to clarify, I'm not taking back any of what I said. The show has a slow start and a meandering plot, but it does pick up toward the middle section and it does get really good. Mileage may vary. I maintain my belief that Scott Buck was the wrong guy to run the show and I'm annoyed with how it rejects a lot of the cooler aspects of Danny's origin, the costume, etc.

I think Finn Jones is likable as Danny. He's a good sort of young, upstart and immature Danny, but we still don't know what the whole story is with him. Do I have reservations? Yes, but I'm willing to see where the rest of the season takes it.

Jessica Henwick is great as Colleen Wing.

I think the show's greatest sin is that it just doesn't grab you right off the bat. Additionally, earlier on it sort of lacks its own unique style that gave Jessica Jones, Daredevil and Luke Cage all their own flavor. But again it does pick up toward the middle and gets into cooler more comic book style action.
 
Not really. The white savior idea is about the white "savior" coming in and completely adopting another CULTURE as his own. Not just weapons a fighting style, but their culture. Their belief systems, their code of honor, their way of life. The Last Samurai, Avatar, these are white savior movies. Because the white leads literally adopt the culture. Not only that, they then need to be shown as being better at understanding and living by this cultural code than the people who were born into it.

Wolverine does try to adopt Japense samurai culture. The reason he doesn't fall into white savior territory is because he constantly fails at it.

Batman never tried to adopt ninja culture. He just adopted some of their tactics.

Frame this.

I feel like a lot of people, on both sides of the argument, don't understand that white savior complex. The Iron Fist and Strange arguments are weak for and against. It won't be fixed with race changes if the underlining writing is weak and will fall in stereotype.

Take the movie "White Men Can't Jump." The movie has very little to do with athleticism or which race is or isn't good at basketball. The movie hinges on the character motivations about hustling and honor codes. The fact that the white character is playing inner city basketball and beating them isn't even remotely the point. Equal weight is given to both men's lives and actions.
 
Not really. The white savior idea is about the white "savior" coming in and completely adopting another CULTURE as his own. Not just weapons a fighting style, but their culture. Their belief systems, their code of honor, their way of life. The Last Samurai, Avatar, these are white savior movies. Because the white leads literally adopt the culture. Not only that, they then need to be shown as being better at understanding and living by this cultural code than the people who were born into it.

Wolverine does try to adopt Japense samurai culture. The reason he doesn't fall into white savior territory is because he constantly fails at it.

Except for the time Wolverine does go to Japan and essentially saves the day on multiple occasions.
 
Ah, those horrible Social Justice Warriors like MLK, Thurgood Marshall and Susan B. Anthony. Why do they continue to point out societal inequities that make me uncomfortable? Can't they simply be happy with the way things are?
Slightly different context then Hossan777, Atomic****** and JohnnyQball typing on their keyboard or iphone about something they've never read or seen. It's just the right thing to do because...Context is everything.
 
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