Is Superman getting the shaft in "Justice League"? - Part 1

[Grommers]

I'm assuming Lois, Bruce and Martha laid all those wreathes and flowers and candles down, right?

I don't think Bruce, the other 2 for sure though.

I tend to agree, that Hope was there, they just never really showed it, the problem is that B vs S didnt focus on Superman's "hope side" and now people didn't get a chance too see it.

The giant statue that was created in central park of him needed a scene in my eyes of the significance behind it.

 

[Greens]

I mean I don't understand how much more needs to be shown about how the world needs Superman than twice he was the very reason humanity still exists in the universe, in the second instance he had to die to save everyone else. It's so on the nose and blatant I genuinely struggle to see how people can justify their comments that he's just a spectator in the DCEU?

To be fair, if Superman hadn't shown up, neither of those two problems would have existed in the first place. It's not like the world was in turmoil, Superman came and saved everyone. The world was doing fine and Superman's arrival uprooted everything.

 

[DeadPresident]

I don't know what's been said by other people, but I very clearly have not said 'everyone' so i'd appreciate it if you'd stop pulling the arguement in that direction.

Sure, fair point. My point is most people seem to be complaining that Superman isn't universally loved, but they phrase it as "Nobody loves him", but I concede you didn't say that.

When I watch the film, I find the examples given are anything but inspiring or full of hope - everything is shrouded in fear or awkwardly out of place.

Pete helps Clark up AFTER a fight... and looks sorry for him...

Lois interviews people who Clark ran away from... who have no idea what actually happened...

People paint his symbol on their rooves so he can save them... and he hovers above them ominously during a compilation of images shown to the sound of a discussion of him being a above us...

And man that Day of the Dead scene... that was just creepy. People looked desperate, Superman looked morbid and uncomfortable...

Again I say, where are the moments that show him bringing out the best in people? (as stated in the JL trailer)

I agree, he brought out the best in Bruce and Lois (and to some extent the soldiers he fought with in MOS). But we're talking about how he was shown to effect the public here.

I imagine the awkward, non-ideal reaction is also deliberate in what Snyder wanted to be a more realistic exploration of the character, and he said it multiple times in BTS interviews for MoS. In the cartoons and comics it's easy to have such a dichotomized view, and usually a one-sided view, where everyone just loves Superman and effectively is just an extension of the Superman fandom. But, really, what's interesting in that? What's interesting in borderline sycophantic admiration for the character by the public as soon as a powerful alien makes his existence known? I'd prefer if a film-maker didn't take me for a fool like that.

The bolded is a fair comment, but I'd say the best example from BvS is that Superman's sacrifice is instrumental in Bruce changing his ways and finding his own path back to pursuing justice in a constructive way. And finally, the amount of people who arrived at the public memorial would also be a testament to that effect he had on the public.

 

[writer0327]

I recall saying this when Man of Steel came out that Superman being characterized in the film more as a problem than as a hero was going to have long reaching affects. I don't necessarily have a problem with this particular type of character arc, and showing how Superman deals with distrust. This deconstruction of the standard Superman story this early on has been problematic to say the least because we haven't gotten to know the character as we would like to know him.

I feel that Superman's first foray into a shared universe would have been better suited as the heroic person we've always known him to be. I think doubting and fearing Superman, and Superman questioning his own place in the world, all working together as a subplot or story point, would have been better for a sequel, or perhaps after the initial run of MOS, BvS, and then Justice League.

 

[DeadPresident]

Except Superman has always been the heroic person we've always known, if they did that again it literally would've been nothing but an imitation of the Donner movies and 95% of the source material. At least someone had the minerals to explore him in a more grounded and real way, the "hardcore fans" know exactly who Superman is and always has been, but apparently they can't deal with not having him be that exact same guy for 1.5 movies that he's been for 75 years.

 

[jmc]

I don't understand how that's logical, considering that just from a nuts and bolts story perspective Superman was quite literally needed in MoS to stop Zod from killing humanity and in BvS stopping Doomsday from killing humanity, so he was needed and instrumental to humanity's existence, no?

I mean I don't understand how much more needs to be shown about how the world needs Superman than twice he was the very reason humanity still exists in the universe, in the second instance he had to die to save everyone else. It's so on the nose and blatant I genuinely struggle to see how people can justify their comments that he's just a spectator in the DCEU?

He has doubts about himself, I don't see how that qualifies as "confirming the negative others see in him" - especially not when his own actions are so completely opposite to those doubts or fears certain parts of humanity have.

Let me ask a different question then. Why do you think Wonder Woman was beloved by audiences and not this Superman?

 

[Greens]

Except Superman has always been the heroic person we've always known, if they did that again it literally would've been nothing but an imitation of the Donner movies and 95% of the source material. At least someone had the minerals to explore him in a more grounded and real way, the "hardcore fans" know exactly who Superman is and always has been, but apparently they can't deal with not having him be that exact same guy for 1.5 movies that he's been for 75 years.

If Superman wasn't that guy in MoS and BvS, why is the JL trailer pretending that he was?

 

[Marvin]

I don't think Bruce, the other 2 for sure though.

I tend to agree, that Hope was there, they just never really showed it, the problem is that B vs S didnt focus on Superman's "hope side" and now people didn't get a chance too see it.

The giant statue that was created in central park of him needed a scene in my eyes of the significance behind it.

that's just it.
City statues and cities shutting down for a day(at least) during someones death and state ran military funerals don't just happen for anyone. They really don't. This is all 'evidence' of something.
The issue is that it's not evidence enough 'for you'. Which is fair, you needed something more like maybe a kid and his mom at a the statue talking about him and superman near by(great scene imo). But there is a difference between wanting more and the film actually needing it.

It's there, it's justified, and that's kinda it. If none of that was there and we here here justifying it that would be be, interesting.

To be fair, if Superman hadn't shown up, neither of those two problems would have existed in the first place. It's not like the world was in turmoil, Superman came and saved everyone. The world was doing fine and Superman's arrival uprooted everything.

Actually that's not fair and not really how this stuff works. Lest we start coming down on batman and every other hero for the galvanizing effect they've had on their claim. TDK and the Avengers in particular.

That being said, superman didn't even choose to come to earth that was his parents. Zod was searching tirelessly so chances are with that hyper jumping tech, they would have found him. Good he found his dads message when he did. As for the world doing fine without him, world war three could happen at any time, so could darkseid and all the other dc threats out there. No telling how much the world needs superman.
At the very least he gave them back their batman.
yay.

 

[DeadPresident]

Let me ask a different question then. Why do you think Wonder Woman was beloved by audiences and not this Superman?

You really think the only reason WW was beloved is the difference in characterization? Come on man, you're smarter than that, there are clearly a lot of variables that played a role in that movie's success that have nothing to do with characterization.

Even with that said I would've preferred if BvS approached Superman the way WW approached Diana, but the hyperbolic reactions to MoS and BvS just make me laugh and have even less time and respect for the CBM fandom.

If Superman wasn't that guy in MoS and BvS, why is the JL trailer pretending that he was?

You seem to be confusing "If Superman wasn't that guy TO EVERYONE" with "Superman wasn't that guy".

 

[Marvin]

If Superman wasn't that guy in MoS and BvS, why is the JL trailer pretending that he was?

Batman is saying he is an inspiration.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Ignoring that just about all those people giving witness statements were put there in some fashion by (the effective villain) Lex, including Wally, who himself was actually failed by bruce. I ignore their sentiments cause they are few, they are duressed and they are manipulated.

Lex might have used them to his advantage, but he didn't cause the things that brought them to their hatred of Superman...

I'd even say opening the film with a ground view of what it was like during the Superman/Zod fight, with Bruce saving a little girl from almost being crushed to death and losing one of his colleagues in a building collapse, made you think 'Yeah, I can see why people would hate Superman after all that'...

Assuming you did see people talking of fear and damages and even if you felt it outweighed the opposite. The fact of the matter is that the opposite is there and bruce is putting forth and arguing his valid opinion based on his very intimate experience on the matter. That alone justifies it. That it's a characters view point, not the trailer man(narrator) explaining it to us.

I've said this before but right now I can talk about the sheer beautiful inspiration Michael Jackson had on me and the world. One could also outweigh that by all the perverted controversy and scandal and drugs and surgery that tormented his career but that doesn't make the former statement any less valid. MJ may be the most inspirational figure in entertainment history and he touched alot of people(even stranger things apparently). The amount of talking heads saturating say fox news(like in mos) debating the matter is noise.

It is nice to see u back. I just popped in a week ago, looking to pop out imminently.

Hey, they can have Bruce say what they want, but it still feels hollow if there is no meat to it.

I think you could give way more examples of MJ being an inspirational figure than you could of Superman in these films... so as nice as the sentiment is, I don't think it applies here where we are discussing a lack of exposition.

It is nice to see u back. I just popped in a week ago, looking to pop out imminently.

Thanks Yeah, I keep wanting to come back, but I never seem to last long lol

 

[DeadPresident]

I don't think Bruce, the other 2 for sure though.

I tend to agree, that Hope was there, they just never really showed it, the problem is that B vs S didnt focus on Superman's "hope side" and now people didn't get a chance too see it.

The giant statue that was created in central park of him needed a scene in my eyes of the significance behind it.

I forgot about this, it's actually a really good "show don't tell" example of that.

To be fair, if Superman hadn't shown up, neither of those two problems would have existed in the first place. It's not like the world was in turmoil, Superman came and saved everyone. The world was doing fine and Superman's arrival uprooted everything.

That sounds suspiciously like victim blaming. "How dare that gifted and altruistic alien save so many people and try and live a life without being murdered by a psychopath!".

 

[Greens]

Batman is saying he is an inspiration.

Did Batman write that ridiculous "world without hope" headline?

 

[misslane38]

If Superman is easily embraced by the public, and he never has to struggle very much, then how much is his hope worth? You inspire the greatest hope in people who are the most cynical and the most in despair. You show your greatest hope by being able to understand and feel the weight and burden upon you or before you, and to take it up anyway, regardless of the reward. Hope is hard. Hope is work.

Donner Superman didn't inspire hope so much as just appeared to instance adoration from a superficially characterized public. He was the quarterback scoring easy touchdowns and using some of that glory to get the girl, just like he vainly wanted and failed to do as a teenager.

Figures who inspire the greatest hope and change are often met with controversy. Civil Rights leaders, religious figures, and politicians. BvS acknowledges this when Perry cites Robert, Martin, and John (i.e. Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King, and John F. Kennedy). Doubting and fearing Superman is a truthful portrayal. The more real the doubt, the more real the hope is. Mileage varies, of course.

 

[Greens]

That sounds suspiciously like victim blaming. "How dare that gifted and altruistic alien save so many people and try and live a life without being murdered by a psychopath!".

You were the one who brought up the world saving thing. He didn't save the world against some inevitable disaster, he effectively mopped up his own ****.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

If Superman is easily embraced by the public, and he never has to struggle very much, then how much is his hope worth? You inspire the greatest hope in people who are the most cynical and the most in despair. You show your greatest hope by being able to understand and feel the weight and burden upon you or before you, and to take it up anyway, regardless of the reward. Hope is hard. Hope is work.

Donner Superman didn't inspire hope so much as just appeared to instance adoration from a superficially characterized public. He was the quarterback scoring easy touchdowns and using some of that glory to get the girl, just like he vainly wanted and failed to do as a teenager.

Figures who inspire the greatest hope and change are often met with controversy. Civil Rights leaders, religious figures, and politicians. BvS acknowledges this when Perry cites Robert, Martin, and John (i.e. Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King, and John F. Kennedy). Doubting and fearing Superman is a truthful portrayal. The more real the doubt, the more real the hope is. Mileage varies, of course.

Which I would whole heartedly agree with if we had seen Superman do or say anything as inspirational as them - instead he was a wordless figure, a godly being saving people in awe striking ways with super human powers and often a boat load of violence, destruction and death - he became an idol and a figure of worship because of his powers, and for some, because they were afraid of him like and wanted to bow down to him, like people often are of gods...

...not because of who he was as a person, what his values were, what he believed in... we didn't even see people get a chance to hear what he believed in.

True inspiration is about so much more than shows of physical strength...

Bringing out the best in people is about so much more than wordless stoicism...

 

[DeadPresident]

I just wanted to pop in and say that I agree with DeadPresident and Marvin. Very well said and supported, you two.

*Hat tip*

You were the one who brought up the world saving thing. He didn't save the world against some inevitable disaster, he effectively mopped up his own ****.

Wait, wait, wait…So being sent to earth as an infant and growing up as one of them and then being hunted down by Zod is "mopping up his own ****"? And then when Lex, a fanatical weirdo decides to create Doomsday because the idea of Superman existing drives him to try and kill Clark, and Superman saves the world, that's all his own fault?

That's fantastic

 

[The Batman]

The funny thing is, no matter how bad SR was, no matter how many stupid decisions were made for Smallville, it never really put a damper of my ability to still be a fan of Superman's. But the DCEU has pretty much killed most of that enjoyment where I'm hoping that I will find sever reasons to jump ship and start following the Flash or Aquaman.

I actually hate being a fan of Superman period.

2017 has been the worst year for superman.

He was fed to extreme feminists in Supergirl so that he could be used to prop up their titular character.

He was ruined completely in "Injustice 2" where he was beyond hope of redeeming and where Batman was made to look the better man.

And now here we are at JL where he is the outsider of the group and where most people are perfectly okay with seeing him just have one good moment in a film where every other hero will have several throughout it.

Honestly, its not surprising when you think about it. Superman, as an overall brand, has been consistently mediocre for 25+ years now, with a few moments of greatness here or there. Snyder Superman is/was just another misguided attempt at trying to make Superman great again.

 

[misslane38]

Did Batman write that ridiculous "world without hope" headline?

The Daily Planet did. You know, the paper Lois works for. The paper whose editor and reporters were portrayed being saved by Superman in Man of Steel (i.e. that glorious world engine sequence with Jenny, Steve, and Perry that ended with Jenny saying "He saved us."), and who attended his funeral in Smallville. The paper that Bruce whined wrote lots of celebratory pieces on Superman. A paper whose earlier headline eulogized Superman at his passing and printed the results of the Lex Luthor's crimes being exposed.

The headline is as truthful as what Bruce said about Superman being a beacon in that they are both accurate reflections of their sentiments.

 

[DeadPresident]

Which I would whole heartedly agree with if we had seen Superman do anything worldy inspirational - he was a wordless figure, a godly being saving people in awe stricking ways with super human powers, and therefore became an idol and a figure of worship to some...

But true inspiration is about so much more than that. Bringing out the best in people is about so much more than that...

Doesn't "Sacrificing yourself to ensure the survival of humanity" fall into that category…?

 

[Greens]

Which I would whole heartedly agree with if we had seen Superman do anything worldy inspirational - he was a wordless figure, a godly being saving people in awe stricking ways with super human powers, and therefore became an idol and a figure of worship to some...

But true inspiration is about so much more than that. Bringing out the best in people is about so much more than that...

Jesus in the Bible had superpowers, but he also interacted with people on a very basic level. That aspect was missing in Superman's portrayal.

 

[I Am The Knight]

The funny thing is, no matter how bad SR was, no matter how many stupid decisions were made for Smallville, it never really put a damper of my ability to still be a fan of Superman's. But the DCEU has pretty much killed most of that enjoyment where I'm hoping that I will find sever reasons to jump ship and start following the Flash or Aquaman.

I actually hate being a fan of Superman period.

2017 has been the worst year for superman.

He was fed to extreme feminists in Supergirl so that he could be used to prop up their titular character.

He was ruined completely in "Injustice 2" where he was beyond hope of redeeming and where Batman was made to look the better man.

And now here we are at JL where he is the outsider of the group and where most people are perfectly okay with seeing him just have one good moment in a film where every other hero will have several throughout it.

 

[jmc]

You really think the only reason WW was beloved is the difference in characterization? Come on man, you're smarter than that, there are clearly a lot of variables that played a role in that movie's success that have nothing to do with characterization.

Even with that said I would've preferred if BvS approached Superman the way WW approached Diana, but the hyperbolic reactions to MoS and BvS just make me laugh and have even less time and respect for the CBM fandom

I think you'll find characterisation is far more important than you're giving it credit for. Wonder Woman embraced heroism, leadership, strength, and most importantly, heart. These are values that people want to see in these characters, so yes, on top of technical execution I think a large part of the success of that film comes down to the creators wanting a positive message sewn throughout its lead character. The reason the words about Superman in the trailer ring hollow is because there has never been the same level of posivity shown to Superman as what was given to Wonder Woman, in fact those words ring truer to her than they do him. She inspired hope, she influenced those around her, and she wasn't shrouded in a questions debating the merits of being a hero, it was simply her doing the right thing, being a hero and not apologising for it.

 

[Greens]

Wait, wait, wait…So being sent to earth as an infant and growing up as one of them and then being hunted down by Zod is "mopping up his own ****"? And then when Lex, a fanatical weirdo decides to create Doomsday because the idea of Superman existing drives him to try and kill Clark, and Superman saves the world, that's all his own fault?

That's fantastic

Is a random Gothamite or person from Metropolis going to deduce the situation like that? From their view, Superman brought a whole lot of problems with him. Yeah, he we see him doing good deeds on television, but what is really up with this guy? I don't think I've ever heard him utter a word! Does he speak any Earthly language at all?

 

[DeadPresident]

Is a random Gothamite or person from Metropolis going to deduce the situation like that? From their view, Superman brought a whole lot of problems with him. Yeah, he we see him doing good deeds on television, but what is really up with this guy? I don't think I've ever heard him utter a word! Does he speak any Earthly language at all?

Oh so NOW we care about how people inside the universe think?