Is Superman getting the shaft in "Justice League"? - Part 1

[Marvin]

I think that's where we disagree. I hear Bruce's comment as broad and in reference to how the everyday man feels about Superman (because he used the words 'world' and 'people'), not just how he feels about him having actually met and experienced him first hand.

never said bruce was speaking for himself.
He's clearly intuiting based on his own experience and deductive reasoning. Again something he is allowed to do narratively given we don't know all who he has seen. Them showing us scenes of this happening on tuesday at some coffee shop in mos and satiating your own need to see it does nothing for batman's experience on some wednesday in his own life. This is what u are saying, i mean, u seeing more scenes of this in prior films legitimatizes a non present batman's inference.

Otherwise what you are suggesting is we see batman sit on a rooftop and see this very thing in order for him to have grounds to say it. To which I would agree to disagree. Lex thinks everyone worships superman, i saw enough grounds for that without needing to either see it happen or see him see it happen personally, it's in his wonderful and logical rhetoric. This is what batman see feels is all the statement means, and unless there is something that can demonstrate that the other way...

 

[Iceman]

The only ones who have benefited from being a cinematic universe are the actual justice league members.

Batman got to kick Superman's ass, delivered a crippling blow to Lex Luther, took on Doomsday, and is now the leader of the JL alongside WW.

Everyone else have gotten great exposure from being in these film's, which will reach its greatest height when we get to this movie.

Superman was the only one kept in the dark about the existence of meta humans. He only had like one dialogue exchange with WW and barely said anything to Batman.

Two of his films, which were supposed to be a part of his trilogy, was hijacked by everyone else.

And even when he comes back, he won't be an actual member of the group and his only action scene in JL will probably be very short be a use he arrives so late in the finale.

A lot of those things are true. But I wasn't debating whether including Superman in this cinematic universe has had no benefit to him (or has had a negative impact. Was just saying that the character of Superman can work in a cinematic universe in response to:

"If anything, this whole experience has shown that Superman does not work in a shared universe."

I don't agree that this experience can tell you anything about how a successful attempt would have worked. If Uwe Boll had wrecked the Avengers it wouldn't tell us that Avengers fundamentally can't work. As I've said before there are countless DC and JL stories where Superman has a great role that could be fine if translated to a film universe without some director making unnecessary changes and "shafting" characters.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

The use of Bruce's statements in the trailer is not wholly relevant to the use of his statements in the film. The context of his statements may be a little different than the one you are assuming.

Perhaps his words follow members of the team sharing their stories of how Superman inspired them. Did Arthur see Superman destroying the World Engine in the Indian Ocean and start giving back to the world ("He comes in the winter when people are hungry and brings fish"). Was Barry inspired by Superman?

It's even possible there's a build up to what Bruce says that includes revisiting characters like Pete Ross, Captain Ferris, Perry White, the boy in Gotham, or the people of Juarez. The fact that the statement is one very close to Bruce's own heart and experience is significant, too.

I don't disagree and I hope this is true

I can only go by what information we've been given so far, and my statements only relate to how I felt about the trailer itself with only the context of the previous two movies to go on. And as i've personally found that side of things dissapointing so far, having so valued that aspect of Superman all my life and really yearning for some great beautiful moments of inspiration and hope in this franchise, I guess it just falls flat for me.

 

[Marvin]

The world never feels anything absolutely about anything. There are no absolutes when it comes to worldwide opinion. I can't think of a single idea or person who has inspired universal worldwide consensus.

The use of Bruce's statements in the trailer is not wholly relevant to the use of his statements in the film. The context of his statements may be a little different than the one you are assuming.

Perhaps his words follow members of the team sharing their stories of how Superman inspired them. Did Arthur see Superman destroying the World Engine in the Indian Ocean and start giving back to the world ("He comes in the winter when people are hungry and brings fish"). Was Barry inspired by Superman?

It's even possible there's a build up to what Bruce says that includes revisiting characters like Pete Ross, Captain Ferris, Perry White, the boy in Gotham, or the people of Juarez. The fact that the statement is one very close to Bruce's own heart and experience is significant, too.

What the previous two films showed is that Superman inspired both hope and hate. And the hate came from those who struggle to believe in hope or purely good things anymore. And that is a state of conflict that exists for all leaders, heroes, and inspirational figures.

I don't think anyone, including Bruce, is trying to suggest Superman was a beacon of hope for everyone in the DCEU.

better said than i could.

 

[Marvin]

I don't disagree and I hope this is true

I can only go by what information we've been given so far, and my statements only relate to how I felt about the trailer itself with only the context of the previous two movies to go on. And as i've personally found that side of things dissapointing so far, having so valued that aspect of Superman all my life and really yearning for some great beautiful moments of inspiration and hope in this franchise, I guess it just falls flat for me.

I can imagine with an avatar like yours.
how things hit us speaks more about what we've seen and where we come from, and what we've been exposed to. A good way to get to know someone imo. The audience is just so different, which is why i personally can't stand the idea of some consensus or speaking for others.
not that u were.

 

[misslane38]

In essence, the in-universe story seems to want to ascribe to Superman the type of reaction that Diana actually inspired.

I'm not sure how much that cognitive dissonance will affect the movie, because I haven't seen the movie.

But it could get a little weird. That's because Jenkins and Co. showed how it is supposed to work, and that is going to be fresh in everyone's mind.

Diana inspired few and had no influence on the world. She maybe inspired Steve, but not really. He was acting as a spy and (almost) dying in planes before he even met her. It was Steve who inspired Diana -- not the other way around -- with the attitude that ultimately brought her victory against Ares and set her on her century long course.

Colonel Hardy started MoS suspicious of Superman. He came to trust him, then died saving the world. Lois, Hardy, and Hamilton were all affected by Superman and helped in his mission against Zod like Steve's team did to help Steve accomplish his mission and to help Veld when Diana took a stand. Superman's No Man's Land was public opinion. The bullets he blocked were dissent and villains like Luthor and Batman. His bravery inspired Bruce that men were still good and Diana that gods and man could stand together.

There is no dissonance within the films themselves, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Herolee10]

Honestly, its not surprising when you think about it. Superman, as an overall brand, has been consistently mediocre for 25+ years now, with a few moments of greatness here or there. Snyder Superman is/was just another misguided attempt at trying to make Superman great again.

Pretty much. All I see are excuses for people trying to justify a bad attempt at telling a superman story and explaining on why it is okay for superman to not be a member of the DCEU's biggest group.

 

[Legendver2]

I'm going to use the tried and true argument of, we haven't seen the movie yet. Clearly in the trailer, there will be segments shown of Superman's death being mourn. What's to say we won't get the perspective from civilians about their views on Superman, or through some plot point of Lois interviewing said civilians about it to write that article "World without Hope"? It would add some credence, at least in THIS film, to have those words by Bruce ring a little less shallow. Sure, most of you guys probably want it to ring more with the first two films, but again, they doing a "course correction" of sorts here, but you guys are crucifying their efforts with 2 lines. Who's to say those 2 lines were put in on Whedon's request? We simply don't know.

 

[Legendver2]

Pretty much. All I see are excuses for people trying to justify a bad attempt at telling a superman story and explaining on why it is okay for superman to not be a member of the DCEU's biggest group.

That's kind of an arrogant POV don't you think? An excuse to you might be a genuine feeling for me. I wasn't a Superman fan until MoS. Just because you didn't see the Supes you want, doesn't mean other's didn't genuinely enjoy it.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

That's fine and all, but I see that line as their initial attempts at springing this in a new more hopeful direction after the reception BvS got. Yea, maybe it is shallow considering the previous two movies. But at the end of the day, it's just two lines that's going to help shape the future of the universe to fit what most of you guys wanted to see anyway, yet a good lot of you guys are crucifying them for even putting it in. I don't get it

I feel critical of lazy storytelling, which I think this is - twisting public opinion of Superman to suit a new storytelling agenda without actually showing the evolution of that change in opinion is lazy.

What can I say, it just irks me lol

never said bruce was speaking for himself.
He's clearly intuiting based on his own experience and deductive reasoning. Again something he is allowed to do narratively given we don't know all who he has seen. Them showing us scenes of this happening on tuesday at some coffee shop in mos and satiating your own need to see it does nothing for batman's experience on some wednesday in his own life. This is what u are saying, i mean, u seeing more scenes of this in prior films legitimatizes a non present batman's inference.

Otherwise what you are suggesting is we see batman sit on a rooftop and see this very thing in order for him to have grounds to say it. To which I would agree to disagree. Lex thinks everyone worships superman, i saw enough grounds for that without this needing to either see it happen or see him see it happen personally, it's in his wonderful and logical rhetoric. This is what batman see feels is all the statement means, and unless there is something that can demonstrate that the other way...

I think the film showed people worshiping Superman for sure. I'd agree with Lex on that.

I just don't agree with Bruce's comment, or the way it felt it was being used in the trailer to paint a picture of how 'the people' feel about him.

 

[Flemm]

Diana inspired few and had no influence on the world.

Ok, but if the reality is that Diana inspired many and had a huge impact, and the in-universe story keeps insisting that she inspired no one and accomplished nothing, while the story insists the opposite for this incarnation of Superman, that is going to get weird pretty quick.

The story can be coherent internally, at least in certain superficial ways, and still create a big disconnect with the audience.

 

[Legendver2]

I feel critical of lazy storytelling, which I think this is - twisting public opinion of Superman to suit a new storytelling agenda without actually showing the evolution of that change in opinion is lazy.

What can I say, it just irks me lol

Storytelling from one trailer, ok lol. But on the real, I can understand if it bugs you, but at least give them some credit of attempting that correction. For all we know we might get actual scenes of people's perspective that inspired that quote from Bruce. My point is, lazy or not, they be trying. Let's give them a break.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I can imagine with an avatar like yours.

Yup... now that's a beautiful, inspiring, hope filled moment in a Superman story.

how things hit us speaks more about what we've seen and where we come from, and what we've been exposed to. A good way to get to know someone imo. The audience is just so different, which is why i personally can't stand the idea of some consensus or speaking for others.
not that u were.

I think that's fair, and I understand that some posters speak as though they speak for all. I try and speak only for myself, and admit all personal bias because of that - otherwise it just ends up in this endless defensive argueing that results in name calling.

I enjoy a good back and forth with someone like yourself though

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Storytelling from one trailer, ok lol.

lol Fair point, but come on... it's the first bit of real meat we fans have had to chew on for a long time

But on the real, I can understand if it bugs you, but at least give them some credit of attempting that correction. For all we know we might get actual scenes of people's perspective that inspired that quote from Bruce. My point is, lazy or not, they be trying. Let's give them a break.

I promise, I will be pleasantly surprised and ready to praise if this kind of thing is included within the film

 

[misslane38]

I don't disagree and I hope this is true

I can only go by what information we've been given so far, and my statements only relate to how I felt about the trailer itself with only the context of the previous two movies to go on. And as i've personally found that side of things dissapointing so far, having so valued that aspect of Superman all my life and really yearning for some great beautiful moments of inspiration and hope in this franchise, I guess it just falls flat for me.

I can only speak for myself, but there's a quiet and beautiful arc in these films so far with Pete Ross that really speaks to me. He's the character through which Superman's influence shines brightest. Pete Ross was a bully who picked on the quiet boy who was different, but when he needed help, Clark saved his life. Pete could have continued to bully Clark; he could have embraced his mother's messianic view of Clark, too. But he didn't.

Pete became a friend. He was there for Clark when new bullies attacked him, he kept Clark's secret, and shared his inspirational story with Lois who ultimately decided her "ghost" was so good that she would kill the biggest story of her life and risk professional ruin and even prison to protect him. Pete Ross is there for Martha as a surrogate son at Clark's funeral. Just one more person Superman has changed. Bruce's story is just Pete's story on a grander scale. And I love that throughline for this Superman.

Superman's story in the DCEU is a story of changing the hearts and minds of bullies. Superman takes a leap of faith on those who hate or mistrust him -- people like Pete, Hardy, Swanwick, and Batman -- and he ultimately earns their trust. This man is not our enemy. And they become friends, allies, and even sacrifice their lives in service of the world and Superman's mission.

These are the purest examples, to me, of the belief or ideal of hope Superman is intended to represent:

Embodied within that hope is the fundamental belief the potential of every person to be a force for good. That's what you can bring them...You will give the people of Earth an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders.

 

[Marvin]

I think the film showed people worshiping Superman for sure. I'd agree with Lex on that.

I just don't agree with Bruce's comment, or the way it felt it was being used in the trailer to paint a picture of how 'the people' feel about him.

That's just it, the film didn't show worshiping to the degree "I'd like". I didn't see any cults or churches...some out stretched arms here and there but those could have been calling for help. Or just wanting to touch the celebrity as we do our rock stars.
I'm being facetious here but that's kinda how it's been. lol.

It's there is my point, could it be more and even on the nose, sure. Then again for all talk of snyders lack of subtlety, this sort of thing always gets me.

And yes the moment from your avy is something. Not even Donner went that far, but if that's a personal standard, and that's my point. It's not about the personal standard, it's about if something is there or not. Trust me i've been there. I didn't seen any detective or tactician batman in nolans stuff, i saw a 'dummy', but i grew up with the bat god. My friends saw plenty.
But yea fair play.

 

[Legendver2]

Embodied within that hope is the fundamental belief the potential of every person to be a force for good. That's what you can bring them...You will give the people of Earth an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders.

Man, I can't wait for JL to conclude this arc. It's been a long time coming. So hyped.

 

[Marvin]

Man, I can't wait for JL to conclude this arc. It's been a long time coming. So hyped.

followed by shazam home coming
and into mos2.

 

[Herolee10]

That's kind of an arrogant POV don't you think? An excuse to you might be a genuine feeling for me. I wasn't a Superman fan until MoS. Just because you didn't see the Supes you want, doesn't mean other's didn't genuinely enjoy it.

MOS wasn't a issue for me. Granted, it had it's issues but it was still a promising start for the character regarding this new interpretation.

It was being killed off in his second film after being forced to keep silent for most of it due to story reasons, along with coming back in JL film where he won't even be an official member of the group that pisses me off.

And with every bit of footage and spoiler that we've gotten, along with how this film has been promoted, I don't think there is an single person that can prove me wrong on what I've stated thus far.

 

[misslane38]

Ok, but if the reality is that Diana inspired many and had a huge impact, and the in-universe story keeps insisting that she inspired no one and accomplished nothing, while the story insists the opposite for this incarnation of Superman, that is going to get weird pretty quick.

The story can be coherent internally, at least in certain superficial ways, and still create a big disconnect with the audience.

You need to stop conflating fiction with reality. You cannot criticize Bruce for not articulating the truth of the audience's experience of Superman compared to the audience's experience of Wonder Woman if Bruce doesn't know he's in a comic book film franchise. The reason why Diana inspired is because we, as an audience, saw her feats through the vehicle of storytelling, but her story is unknown to the world of the DCEU in which she is not Wonder Woman yet.

Superman, on the other hand, has inspired people in his own story on the same scale as Diana, but his inspirational effect is narratively drowned out by the exploration of public opinion. Diana has not and will not have to endure this trial or obstacle because Superman paved the way for her already. It is he who fought for a world where mankind and gods could stand together while Diana, rightfully, remained on the sidelines as an act of loving submission.

I am not surprised audiences respond differently to Diana and Superman. It is a very clear example of how we often will choose the beautiful lie, the storybook fairy tale, or the the religious gospel over the complicated context of reality. Diana's heroism in her own film was shattered when her bedtime story was revealed to be a lie, so it doesn't shock me that audiences respond similarly when Superman isn't a fairy tale character anymore.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I can only speak for myself, but there's a quiet and beautiful arc in these films so far with Pete Ross that really speaks to me. He's the character through which Superman's influence shines brightest. Pete Ross was a bully who picked on the quiet boy who was different, but when he needed help, Clark saved his life. Pete could have continued to bully Clark; he could have embraced his mother's messianic view of Clark, too. But he didn't.

Pete became a friend. He was there for Clark when new bullies attacked him, he kept Clark's secret, and shared his inspirational story with Lois who ultimately decided her "ghost" was so good that she would kill the biggest story of her life and risk professional ruin and even prison to protect him. Pete Ross is there for Martha as a surrogate son at Clark's funeral. Just one more person Superman has changed. Bruce's story is just Pete's story on a grander scale. And I love that throughline for this Superman.

Superman's story in the DCEU is a story of changing the hearts and minds of bullies. Superman takes a leap of faith on those who hate or mistrust him -- people like Pete, Hardy, Swanwick, and Batman -- and he ultimately earns their trust. This man is not our enemy. And they become friends, allies, and even sacrifice their lives in service of the world and Superman's mission.

These are the purest examples, to me, of the belief or ideal of hope Superman is intended to represent:

Embodied within that hope is the fundamental belief the potential of every person to be a force for good. That's what you can bring them...You will give the people of Earth an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders.

I think it's lovely that you see all of that in there

 

[BlueLanternKal]

You know, it's funny how some self-proclaimed die hard Superman fans are always looking for a reason to hate on him. But this MHH.com so I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[Iceman]

I can only speak for myself, but there's a quiet and beautiful arc in these films so far with Pete Ross that really speaks to me. He's the character through which Superman's influence shines brightest. Pete Ross was a bully who picked on the quiet boy who was different, but when he needed help, Clark saved his life. Pete could have continued to bully Clark; he could have embraced his mother's messianic view of Clark, too. But he didn't.

Pete became a friend. He was there for Clark when new bullies attacked him, he kept Clark's secret, and shared his inspirational story with Lois who ultimately decided her "ghost" was so good that she would kill the biggest story of her life and risk professional ruin and even prison to protect him. Pete Ross is there for Martha as a surrogate son at Clark's funeral. Just one more person Superman has changed. Bruce's story is just Pete's story on a grander scale. And I love that throughline for this Superman.

Superman's story in the DCEU is a story of changing the hearts and minds of bullies. Superman takes a leap of faith on those who hate or mistrust him -- people like Pete, Hardy, Swanwick, and Batman -- and he ultimately earns their trust. This man is not our enemy. And they become friends, allies, and even sacrifice their lives in service of the world and Superman's mission.

These are the purest examples, to me, of the belief or ideal of hope Superman is intended to represent:

Embodied within that hope is the fundamental belief the potential of every person to be a force for good. That's what you can bring them...You will give the people of Earth an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders.

I like the Pete Ross example.

 

[misslane38]

I think it's lovely that you see all of that in there

Thanks?

 

[Marvin]

It was being killed off in his second film after being forced to keep silent for most of it due to story reasons, along with coming back in JL film where he won't even be an official member of the group that pisses me off.

one tries to give every opinion a fair shake, however so many of us here just tattoo agendas on our foreheads to such a degree.
Safe to say when u say the film is poorly directed, lacks story, bad action and all the stuff that people put out there to present and artful criticism, I'll actually know what it's really boiling down to.
At least I'll assume.
also fair play.