Comics Jean and the Phoenix Force

HandOfFate said:
I’m sure you can think of tons of stories for Jean with the full power of the Phoenix Force….but would the story be interesting to the average reader of comics. Think about it, most readers of comic book consider all powerful characters boring. That the reason why the Silver Surfer can’t hold onto a book for more the 12 issue now. Nobody cares for the plight of an all powerful god.

IMHO, the only way Jean could work is if they brought her down to Rachel’s power levels in Excalibur, (which might piss a small minority of fans off). Within this power range Jean is still powerful but she now has limits which would make her relatable to readers.

All powerful is not a good thing.

Also thanks for the Name thing. :)



That's really sad. Why should fans care about her then? The possibility of death plays a major rule in the lives of comic book characters (Even if some can’t get it right the first time) and their readers. :)

Don't make assumptions. Superman can be considered a god and he's as popular as ever. Then there's Wonderwoman is equivalent to a Greek Amazon goddess. Then we have people like the Authority who's powers were crazy powerful yet they still have their fanbases and were popular. Sentry is another example. etc etc. Jean doesn't have to be White Phoenix. Heck Green Phoenix or how she was during the majority of Morrison's run is fine by me.
 
Intheknow101 said:
Don't make assumptions. Superman can be considered a god and he's as popular as ever. Then there's Wonderwoman is equivalent to a Greek Amazon goddess. Then we have people like the Authority who's powers were crazy powerful yet they still have their fanbases and were popular. Sentry is another example. etc etc. Jean doesn't have to be White Phoenix. Heck Green Phoenix or how she was during the majority of Morrison's run is fine by me.


I still can't get over how you can say this green phoenix and white phoenix stuff without laughing your butt off. What's next? Purple or Blue or Red alert Phoenix? Does she slip into the next stage only when its truly a life threatening situation?

Morrison just like the previous writers destroyed the character and went phoenix happy. He could have saved the Jean character but he was too busy doing himself a service and not her. Jean is no where in a xbook now.

Also you made some poing earlier that storm fans want Storm to be all powerful and that its ok for her to be powerful but not Jean.

Wrong.

You see Storm fans, or at least the ones with sense, know that Storm can stand on her own as strong character WITHOUT her powers. Remember? She led the Xmen for years without her powers because her powers are not a crutch to mask an underdeveloped character.

I want Jean back and I want Jean to grow as a character. I don't want rainbowcolored Phoenix sherbert.

Oh and I hate Superman. I have never and will never purchase a superman comic. If Some alien can from outer space the planet would not open its arms to him like that no matter how much red, white and blue he wore.

On a side note I love the new comic Supreme Power. I just saw it today and color me impressed. I am sad that somehow marvel is behind that. Surely no way? I have to look into it some more.

Edit: thanks I almost forgot about wonder woman! I do like wonder woman but she is no way more powerful than superman. Go to the DC boards and dare to suggest it and be smacked down by the power obsessed superman fan boys.

Here is a perfect superman for the new age... darn I tried to post an image but its not working. Hang tight.
 
phoenixstorm said:
See this is where you are wrong. I can reject it. I can also refuse to buy their books. They lost me a long time ago, honestly. A few years ago I collected every x title except deadpool. I also collected the avengers. I purchased other books when a crossover that interested me happened.

Do you know how much money I was shoving marvels way every month? Not counting annuals? Yeah they don't need my money to survive so that's fine. I'll keep my money in my pocket and not pay for crap.

Unlike you when they bastardize my favorite book I leave. The whole scott emma thing is just wrong and nasty!

Also the fans rejected beast being gay and guess what? Yes you guessed it he's not gay anymore. You see the thing with having writers go wily nily over your universe means that sooner or later what I don't like will probably be changed. So who will be right then?

I'm still not coming back. They care too little for their fanbase. I've been a comic fan since my uncle gave me my first Xmen when I was five years old. That was a long time ago.

But no longer.

You can reject it all you want. It's still canon. Emma/Scott is canon. Beast pretending to be gay to get back at Trish Tilby is canon. Jean as Phoenix is canon.

Fine you don't accept what the writers write. You don't buy the books anyways. So why don't you just move on instead of complaining. I doubt you stopping to buy their books made a dent in their profits since there's always someone to fill that spot. Something you hate, others love.

I'm still not coming back.

Is this a promise?
 
Intheknow101 said:
You can reject it all you want. It's still canon. Emma/Scott is canon. Beast pretending to be gay to get back at Trish Tilby is canon. Jean as Phoenix is canon.

Fine you don't accept what the writers write. You don't buy the books anyways. So why don't you just move on instead of complaining. I doubt you stopping to buy their books made a dent in their profits since there's always someone to fill that spot. Something you hate, others love.



Is this a promise?

So you are telling me you love scott and emma. You love gay beast. Wait gay to get back at Trish because you know all straight guys are running around doing that. You love all that?

Yes someone has definitely taken my spot. Marvel isn't worried about me and as I said thats fine. Something I hate now I used to love. I have every original issue of Xmen that I spent my hard earned money on until about 2000 when I stopped seriously collecting.
 
phoenixstorm said:
I still can't get over how you can say this green phoenix and white phoenix stuff without laughing your butt off. What's next? Purple or Blue or Red alert Phoenix? Does she slip into the next stage only when its truly a life threatening situation?

Morrison just like the previous writers destroyed the character and went phoenix happy. He could have saved the Jean character but he was too busy doing himself a service and not her. Jean is no where in a xbook now.

Also you made some poing earlier that storm fans want Storm to be all powerful and that its ok for her to be powerful but not Jean.

Wrong.

You see Storm fans, or at least the ones with sense, know that Storm can stand on her own as strong character WITHOUT her powers. Remember? She led the Xmen for years without her powers because her powers are not a crutch to mask an underdeveloped character.

I want Jean back and I want Jean to grow as a character. I don't want rainbowcolored Phoenix sherbert.

Oh and I hate Superman. I have never and will never purchase a superman comic. If Some alien can from outer space the planet would not open its arms to him like that no matter how much red, white and blue he wore.

On a side note I love the new comic Supreme Power. I just saw it today and color me impressed. I am sad that somehow marvel is behind that. Surely no way? I have to look into it some more.

The white phoenix is not a new occurence. She's been shown in this form way before Morrison. He merely showed more of her and relied on things Claremont established a long time ago. If anything it's reinforcing continuity.

Jean is in plenty of x-books. Ultimate X-Men, Ultimate Nightmare, Ultimate Extinction, was in the recent AOA revisit, Phoenix:Endsong, and X-Men:The End. She's also made various appearances and is a strong influence on many of the current going ons in the books from Emma/Scott's relationship to the Shiar stuff going on in Uncanny. And she'll be back sooner or later.

The references in the color have to do with the Kabbalistic influences. Red represents her destructive side, when she gives into her powers. Green is more her human and good side. And white is a combo of both. Brianwilly explains much better. It's true what they say, People fear or dislike what they don't understand.:)
 
Oh I get it phoenix has gone all madonna on us. Thats great for a fundamental aspect of the universe. Where does she find the time to pick up the texts?

We'll just agree to disagree because you, amazingly, actually like this new direction for Jean. So thats cool that you are happy.

I myself want Jean as a character and person not a conceit.

On another note how do i post an image?
 
phoenixstorm said:
So you are telling me you love scott and emma. You love gay beast. Wait gay to get back at Trish because you know all straight guys are running around doing that. You love all that?

Yes someone has definitely taken my spot. Marvel isn't worried about me and as I said thats fine. Something I hate now I used to love. I have every original issue of Xmen that I spent my hard earned money on until about 2000 when I stopped seriously collecting.

I don't mind Scott and Emma. Gay beast is fine with me whether he was really gay or pretending to be. It's different from the status quo you have in your head doesn't mean it's wrong.
 
phoenixstorm said:
Oh I get it phoenix has gone all madonna on us. Thats great for a fundamental aspect of the universe. Where does she find the time to pick up the texts?

We'll just agree to disagree because you, amazingly, actually like this new direction for Jean. So thats cool that you are happy.

I myself want Jean as a character and person not a conceit.

On another note how do i post an image?

Once again the kabblistic influences have been in place as far back as the original phoenix sagas where Jean experienced herself as Tipereth. Something that was in place ages ago and merely expanded on. If you think it's horrible now, then you would have hated it and should have stopped reading back in the 80's.
 
I just don't agree it was there. It was tacked on by Morrison. Like you said some are happy Morrison did what he did but others, like me, are not.
 
phoenixstorm said:
I just don't agree it was there. It was tacked on by Morrison. Like you said some are happy Morrison did what he did but others, like me, are not.

It wasn't tacked on by Morrison. The White Phoenix made it's first appearance in the 80's talking to death building the towers equivalent to heaven of the D'bari. Jean wondered if green was the good and red was the bad, what means the white?
Jean herself said she experienced a vision of herself as "Tiphereth" in one of the Phoenix sagas. There was even shown the tree of life, and how various X-Men were placed there. So you're wrong about the Kabbalistic influences not being there.
 
phoenixstorm said:
See this is where you are wrong. I can reject it. I can also refuse to buy their books. They lost me a long time ago, honestly. A few years ago I collected every x title except deadpool. I also collected the avengers. I purchased other books when a crossover that interested me happened.

Do you know how much money I was shoving marvels way every month? Not counting annuals? Yeah they don't need my money to survive so that's fine. I'll keep my money in my pocket and not pay for crap.

Unlike you when they bastardize my favorite book I leave. The whole scott emma thing is just wrong and nasty!

Also the fans rejected beast being gay and guess what? Yes you guessed it he's not gay anymore. You see the thing with having writers go wily nily over your universe means that sooner or later what I don't like will probably be changed. So who will be right then?

I'm still not coming back. They care too little for their fanbase. I've been a comic fan since my uncle gave me my first Xmen when I was five years old. That was a long time ago.

But no longer.

Edit:

And I've seen the new Ms. Marvel series and I love carol danvers and I want to buy it but I won't. The only money marvel has gotten from me is when I bought my xmen ticket.

Look, I agree with you, and you're missing my point. YOU can ignore stuff, but you cannot refuse End Song as canon. You can hate X-men, not buy the books, whatever, but the one thing you cannot do is state that something is non-canon when it clearly is.

You're not the only one that isn't exactly thrilled by certain developments in the X-world.
 
Intheknow101 said:
Don't make assumptions. Superman can be considered a god and he's as popular as ever. Then there's Wonderwoman is equivalent to a Greek Amazon goddess. Then we have people like the Authority who's powers were crazy powerful yet they still have their fanbases and were popular. Sentry is another example. etc etc. Jean doesn't have to be White Phoenix. Heck Green Phoenix or how she was during the majority of Morrison's run is fine by me.


Wait are you trying to use Superman and Wonder Woman power levels to justifie "Miss I can whole a universe in my hand".:confused:
 
phoenixstorm said:
It's all too arbitrary for me. I don't have the patience anymore for deaths and resurrections and deaths and resurrections. The original story was great. When they brought Jean back in fantastic four it was a sad, sad day for comics. It was the beginning of the Soap Opera mentality.

LOL, well if death and resurrection constitutes a "soap opera mentality", then it started long before Jean's return in FF. During the original run, before 2nd gen, Xavier's original body died and his consciousness was transferred to a cloned new one. You know, to this day, I'll never understand why people are surprised and/or upset when a character named "PHOENIX" rises from an APPARENT "death". 'Cause to me, it's a rather foregone conclusion, not to mention the only logical one.


I'm tired of characters dying just to come back. Didn't they recently have a joke in the comic that they die and always come back? Yeah. Tired. Of. It.

You'll get no argument from me on this one, as I wholeheartedly agree 100%. Death in comics has been reduced to a gimmick, but that's not Jean's fault. That paticular responsiblity falls on writers whose creative wells have run dry(or were dust to begin with) AND editors who should know better or be in another line of work altogether(cleaning up animal dung at the zoo comes to mind, 'cause lord knows they've tried to shovel us enough s**t over the years).


Really I don't care who is more powerful phoenix or storm, xavier or magneto, because its meaningless. They writers and marvel have made it meaningless. Jean kills Storm. so what because storm will be back. Storm kills Jean. So what because Jean will be back. Its pointless. How many times is magneto going to go evil and try to exterminate human kind? I bet thats coming back soon.

You are right again! Absolutely! Arguing over who's more powerful IS pointless AND it's juvenile. In other words, it's a complete waste of time.


And when you say phoenix isn't ominpotent you're kidding right? She eats suns and destroys galaxies.
NO, I'm most certainly not! You're referring to an isolated incident, that happened ONCE almost 30 friggin' years ago! I don't think an omnipotent being could be taken out by a magnetically induced brain aneurysm, do you? It's funny and ironic how all the fans complaining Jean's TOO powerful are the very same ones arguing she IS that powerful. Go figure!


I think a jean limited series would work. I don't think she can carry her own comic because they would have done it by now. Her character just isn't strong enough to support her own comic.

This one here is my favorite, I mean WTF are you talking about?! Going by your "reasoning" above, only Gambit, Rogue, and Nightcrawler are strong enough characters to carry their own book. 'Cause as of NOW, they're the only ones who've been given a shot at an ongoing solo. Well, Rogue's and Nightcrawler's did not succeed, while Gambit's failed TWICE! Oh, I almost forgot, throw in the misfires of Mystique's and Emma's books as well. This leaves Wolverine, and what can you say, it's friggin' Wolverine! So, using the same "logic" you applied to Jean, the following charaters are not strong enough to support their own book: Cyclops, Iceman, Beast, Archangel, Storm, Colossus, Shadowcat, Havok, Polaris, Professor X, Magneto... I think you get the picture. Just for the record, if Jean were such a weak character, I don't think she'd be as popular as she is. I think if you do some research, you'll find she easily places in the all time top ten of comic book superheroines!


Its really sad that there aren't more female centered comics out there.

We'll end on a happier note, 'cause I agree with you 110% on this one. You know what bothers me though, while Marvel's made some progress in this area recently, they're doing it with has-beens like Ms. Marvel(GOD! I hate that cheesey name!) and Spider-Woman. Now I like both, but feel Storm, Phoenix, Invisible Woman, or Scarlet Witch are far more deserving and worthy of such prestige. No offense to Carol and Jessica fans, it's just my opinion. Oh yeah, there's She-Hulk too, but for some reason that doesn't bother me. The premise of Jennifer being a superhero, while defending their rights in the courtroom, is a dynamic and intriguing concept... to say the least! If only Jean and Ororo could get such respectful treatment.
 
Intheknow101 said:
Jean is in plenty of x-books. Ultimate X-Men, Ultimate Nightmare, Ultimate Extinction, was in the recent AOA revisit, Phoenix:Endsong, and X-Men:The End. She's also made various appearances and is a strong influence on many of the current going ons in the books from Emma/Scott's relationship to the Shiar stuff going on in Uncanny. And she'll be back sooner or later.
Which ones out of them would be good to get as i would like to get more comics, with like development or about Jean really (sorry about the post looking stupid not all the buttons or keys work on my college keyboard.
 
You're right about the Gambit and Nightcralwer and Rogue books failing. For some reason the public just isn't buying. I think because there are just too many Xmen books already. Then to throw in another series? Too much.

They have saturated the market
 
Intheknow101 said:
It wasn't tacked on by Morrison. The White Phoenix made it's first appearance in the 80's talking to death building the towers equivalent to heaven of the D'bari. Jean wondered if green was the good and red was the bad, what means the white?
Jean herself said she experienced a vision of herself as "Tiphereth" in one of the Phoenix sagas. There was even shown the tree of life, and how various X-Men were placed there. So you're wrong about the Kabbalistic influences not being there.

It was in the Classic X-men that handled her death
 
Too many to take in...

Someone said "Endsong is newer than the Handbooks" and I must say "WRONG!!!!!!" The handbooks take into full account what happened in Endsong and still it calls Jean the Phoenix Force's Prime Host... a host, not the Force itself like the PHoenix Fans say. A much more sensible and plausible explanation than the one this people want us to believe.

AS to the rest... I haven't read it :(

I do have this to say... in X-Men 150 Jean DIED with a simple electromagnetic pulse... guess who can create emps? :p
 
sebita said:
I do have this to say... in X-Men 150 Jean DIED with a simple electromagnetic pulse... guess who can create emps? :p

Magneto
 
I wasn't talking about him... I was talking about a certain Goddess who can create EMPs big enough to cover an entire planet... but that doesn't truly count given as it was in the End... however she can do it in 616 too, we've seen her do a gigantic EMP in the DAnger Room in 444...
 
*Afraid to ask Sebita to give details*:(
 
sebita said:
I wasn't talking about him... I was talking about a certain Goddess who can create EMPs big enough to cover an entire planet... but that doesn't truly count given as it was in the End... however she can do it in 616 too, we've seen her do a gigantic EMP in the DAnger Room in 444...

Polaris???
 
LOL! Polaris is far from a goddess.lol Are you serious? Sorta hard to tell.
 
Last time I checked, this was a Phoenix and Jean discussion.

And Ororo is hardly a goddess. More like a crazy lady who calls herself a goddess :p
 

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